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The CIS 2013 University Cup

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Old
03-05-2013, 08:07 AM
  #1
Drummer
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The CIS 2013 University Cup

I thought a generic 'University Cup' thread might get too long, so here is one for the coming tournament.

Teams
Currently we know the 6 teams in the tournament; USask (Host), UoAlberta (Canada West Champion) as well as UNB & SMU (AUS Finalists), Waterloo and UQTR (OUA Finalists).

Location
The tournament will be held at Credit Union Centre (commonly referred to as the C.U.C. and originally Saskatchewan Place or SaskPlace) with an upgraded capacity of 11,000.

This is the second time the tournament has been played here - the first three(3) years of the current 6 team format were hosted here. UNB won their first title in year one (1998) over Acadia followed by two UoAlberta titles (both over AUS champions - UdeM in 1999 and UNB in 2000).

Host UoSaskatchewan failed to make it to the finals each year, knocked out in 1998 with an 0-2 record (lost to Acadia & UQTR), a 1-1 record in 1999 (win over Windsor but lost to UdeM) and a 1-1 record in 2000 (win in OT over Western but lost in OT to UNB).

Pools
My predictions for Pools:
Pool-A (afternoon): UoA (#1), UQTR(#4) and SMU(#6)
Pool-B (night):UNB (#2), Waterloo (#3) and USask (#5)

Seeds 4-5-6 are moot as they are decided by being in the opposite pool as their conference champion.

Final Seedings will be voted on by the CIS Top Ten committe on Sat. Mar. 9th. The AUS and OUA finals are still being played

Day 1
With UoSaskatchewan playing on Thursday - I suspect they will play the OUA team putting UNB in a position of having to win three in a row. UoAlberta has the less than envious task of playing Thursday afternoon vs the AUS Wildcard assuming #1 vs #6 to start (they haven't had great success in that position over the years - the last three times have been loses; Lost 3-2OT2 to SFX in 2003, lost 2-1 to UdeM in 2007 (still went on to win Gold though), lost 6-3 to UNB 2009.

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03-05-2013, 08:26 AM
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University Cup Quick Stats

Here are some interesting Quick Stats on the University Cup 6-team format.

- Night pool has won 5 of 15 (.333) while the afternoon has won 10 of 15 (.666)

- playing three in a row to win has happened 6/15 (.400), 1-2 split has won 8/15 (.533) and 2-1 split has won 1/15 (.066)

- 3 in a row from the night pool has won 2/15 (.133)

- Conference Golds are 6 for AUS, 5 for CW and 4 for OUA

- #1 vs #2 in the finals has only occurred twice (2008 - UNB vs UoA and 2011 - UNB vs McGill).

- #1 seed has only won 4 golds (.266); UNB-1998, UoA-2005, UoA-2006 and UNB-2011.

- #1 seed has only won once as non-host; UNB-1998 (UoA-2005, UoA-2006 and UNB-2011 were all host teams)

- the lowest seed to win gold is #5 UNB in 2007

- the #6 seed has never won gold (appeared in 3 finals; ACD in 1998, SFX in 2003 and UNB in 2004)

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03-05-2013, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer View Post
I thought a generic 'University Cup' thread might get too long, so here is one for the coming tournament.

Teams
Currently we know the 6 teams in the tournament; USask (Host), UoAlberta (Canada West Champion) as well as UNB & SMU (AUS Finalists), Waterloo and UQTR (OUA Finalists).

Location
The tournament will be held at Credit Union Centre (commonly referred to as the C.U.C. and originally Saskatchewan Place or SaskPlace) with an upgraded capacity of 11,000.

This is the second time the tournament has been played here - the first three(3) years of the current 6 team format were hosted here. UNB won their first title in year one (1998) over Acadia followed by two UoAlberta titles (both over AUS champions - UdeM in 1999 and UNB in 2000).

Host UoSaskatchewan failed to make it to the finals each year, knocked out in 1998 with an 0-2 record (lost to Acadia & UQTR), a 1-1 record in 1999 (win over Windsor but lost to UdeM) and a 1-1 record in 2000 (win in OT over Western but lost in OT to UNB).

Pools
My predictions for Pools:
Pool-A (afternoon): UoA (#1), UQTR(#4) and SMU(#6)
Pool-B (night):UNB (#2), Waterloo (#3) and USask (#5)

Seeds 4-5-6 are moot as they are decided by being in the opposite pool as their conference champion.

Final Seedings will be voted on by the CIS Top Ten committe on Sat. Mar. 9th. The AUS and OUA finals are still being played

Day 1
With UoSaskatchewan playing on Thursday - I suspect they will play the OUA team putting UNB in a position of having to win three in a row. UoAlberta has the less than envious task of playing Thursday afternoon vs the AUS Wildcard assuming #1 vs #6 to start (they haven't had great success in that position over the years - the last three times have been loses; Lost 3-2OT2 to SFX in 2003, lost 2-1 to UdeM in 2007 (still went on to win Gold though), lost 6-3 to UNB 2009.
Who decides who plays on day 1? In my opinion the top 2 seeds should get to play on day 1 and have the advantage of not having to potentially play 3 games in a row.

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03-05-2013, 08:58 AM
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Who decides who plays on day 1? In my opinion the top 2 seeds should get to play on day 1 and have the advantage of not having to potentially play 3 games in a row.
The tournament committee has some say on who they play (of the teams in their pool - they don't decided who is in the pools, the top 10 committee defines the seeds) and what days they want to play. This impacts the draw for the pool the host team is in. The first few years, hosts played on Friday and Saturday night to get the biggest draw regardless of their seed.

Guelph was the first host to played on Thursday. They were selected as 2002 host over Laurier & Waterloo based some criteria that determine which team would host if none of them won their way into the tournament. They lost 8-0 to UoA. The previous year Laurier was selected and they played on Friday. It was strange tournament because there were three hosts.

UdeM was the second host to play their first game on Thursday, they did it in their second year of hosting and won 2-1 over Alberta advancing them to Saturday.

In 2011 & 12 UNB elected to play on Thursday to get a day of rest.

It's a risky play because a loss means you play on Friday and are pretty much eliminated from the gold medal on the first day of the tournament (taking all of the air out of the sails and killing the mood locally - this year, everyone would immediately start looking to the next weekend when the Memorial Cup begins, also in Saskatoon).

In Lakehead-2009, Lakehead was the host entry and seeded #6, but elected to play on Friday night leaving #1 UoA to play #5 UNB. the expected match-up would be #1 vs #6, but as Lakehead wanted to play on Friday - Alberta got #5 UNB instead.


Last edited by Drummer: 03-05-2013 at 09:17 AM.
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03-05-2013, 09:53 AM
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Wolfie has a point. The top seeds in each pool are supposed to play on the opening Thursday against the lowest seed in their pool.

The host team has the option of choosing to start on Thursday or Friday. Sask has apparently chosen Thursday. So if you follow that logic (and UNB wins the AUS) then the Green Huskies would be opening vs the V-Reds on Thursday night (since they would be the lowest seed in their pool, as they will be with AUS and OUA champs.)

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03-05-2013, 11:09 AM
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"Sask has apparently chosen Thursday..."

Not only is it apparent, it is also a fact. They will play Thursday according to the UofS sports voice mail thingy.

"So if you follow that logic (and UNB wins the AUS) ..."

You could also say the same if SMU wins the AUS. This is not a UNB thread. Don't be afraid to be unbiased.....

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03-05-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FreddtFoyle View Post
Wolfie has a point. The top seeds in each pool are supposed to play on the opening Thursday against the lowest seed in their pool.

The host team has the option of choosing to start on Thursday or Friday. Sask has apparently chosen Thursday. So if you follow that logic (and UNB wins the AUS) then the Green Huskies would be opening vs the V-Reds on Thursday night (since they would be the lowest seed in their pool, as they will be with AUS and OUA champs.)
But I highly doubt they run the risk of losing to UNB night #1. I assume they will play the OUA team Thursday night, hope to win, then get UNB on Saturday night playing for the second day in a row.

I expect the same thing if SMU takes the AUS.

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03-05-2013, 03:22 PM
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But I highly doubt they run the risk of losing to UNB night #1. I assume they will play the OUA team Thursday night, hope to win, then get UNB on Saturday night playing for the second day in a row.

I expect the same thing if SMU takes the AUS.
Do they really have the choice of who the play on opening night? In my opinion they absolutely should not. They don't deserve that kind of advantage. In the World Juniors the host seed gets to play the night games, but they do not get to dictate in what order they play teams. It should be the same here. If they wanted to play Thursday against the lowest ranked team in their pool they should have won their conference.

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03-05-2013, 03:29 PM
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Do they really have the choice of who the play on opening night? In my opinion they absolutely should not. They don't deserve that kind of advantage. In the World Juniors the host seed gets to play the night games, but they do not get to dictate in what order they play teams. It should be the same here. If they wanted to play Thursday against the lowest ranked team in their pool they should have won their conference.
That's actually an interesting question....Drummer mentioned the scenario in 2009 in Lakehead when it was Alberta (#1), UNB (#4), and Lakehead (#6) all together, with UNB playing Alberta opening night. But that was because Lakehead had already decided to start Friday night.

Now this year Saskatchewan has already decided they will begin Thursday night so they should have to face the top seed in their pool whether they want to or not, or else getting the top seed would be kind of pointless since there really wouldn't be any advantage to it.

I don't mean to get off topic, but as for your WJ reference...you think it was just a coincidence that in the round robin this year Canada had to play a rested Russian team the very next day after playing the US? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

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03-05-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by UNB Bruins Fan View Post
That's actually an interesting question....Drummer mentioned the scenario in 2009 in Lakehead when it was Alberta (#1), UNB (#4), and Lakehead (#6) all together, with UNB playing Alberta opening night. But that was because Lakehead had already decided to start Friday night.

Now this year Saskatchewan has already decided they will begin Thursday night so they should have to face the top seed in their pool whether they want to or not, or else getting the top seed would be kind of pointless since there really wouldn't be any advantage to it.

I don't mean to get off topic, but as for your WJ reference...you think it was just a coincidence that in the round robin this year Canada had to play a rested Russian team the very next day after playing the US? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
I am pretty sure they use a predetermined schedule at the WJ year after year. Like on the last day of the round robin 1 plays 2 and 3 plays 4 in each group.

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03-05-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by wolf13 View Post
Do they really have the choice of who the play on opening night? In my opinion they absolutely should not. They don't deserve that kind of advantage.
Well this is the CIS Hockey brand and it needs some help in some markets. Also, the CIS financial commitment is pretty high so they are given the choice of when to start to increase there revenue opportunities. Regardless - they still have to play each team in the pool so what does it matter what day they want to start?! Certainly the higher seeds (#1 and #2) would prefer a Thu/Sat/Sun schedule, but if it helps the tournament be a financial success, it's a small price to pay to 'massage' one pool's schedule.

Also, given the lack of success of starting on Friday night, I think it hurts the host to open on Friday night. The team that is hurt the most for a Thu start is the #1 or #2 seed in that pool who is put in a position of having to win 3 in a row (Fri/Sat/Sun) - especially if it's a night pool (only happened twice in 15 years).

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03-05-2013, 09:11 PM
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Well this is the CIS Hockey brand and it needs some help in some markets. Also, the CIS financial commitment is pretty high so they are given the choice of when to start to increase there revenue opportunities. Regardless - they still have to play each team in the pool so what does it matter what day they want to start?! Certainly the higher seeds (#1 and #2) would prefer a Thu/Sat/Sun schedule, but if it helps the tournament be a financial success, it's a small price to pay to 'massage' one pool's schedule.

Also, given the lack of success of starting on Friday night, I think it hurts the host to open on Friday night. The team that is hurt the most for a Thu start is the #1 or #2 seed in that pool who is put in a position of having to win 3 in a row (Fri/Sat/Sun) - especially if it's a night pool (only happened twice in 15 years).
My point wasn't that Saskatchewan shouldn't get to start on Thursday night. If they want to they should. They should not have ever be able to choose who they play. It is a massive advantage if they end up playing the AUS champ on Saturday instead of Thursday. If the AUS champ does get through they would be playing 3 games in 3 days. If they are the #2 seed they do not deserve that fate.

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03-05-2013, 10:13 PM
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Every tournament from minor atom to the Olympics is scheduled to favour the home team, the CIS is no different.

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03-06-2013, 05:28 AM
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This is the last season as the current format, next season, they only have 4 teams the 4 conference champions (West, OUAE, OUAW, AUS) their is no wild cards or host team next season.

The Canada West Champion Plays the OUA West Champ in a best of 3 Semifinals, while the AUS Champ plays the OUA East Champ in the other best of 3 Semifinal.

The Two winners play in a Best of 13 first to win 7 Games University Cup...............................okay that was dumb, but wasn't their actually talk about changing the format starting next year? or tickering with it

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03-06-2013, 06:09 AM
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Every tournament from minor atom to the Olympics is scheduled to favour the home team, the CIS is no different.
Tournaments like as previously mentioned the WJ or the Memorial Cup give the home team night games, but the rest of the schedule is predetermined. As is the Olympics.

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03-06-2013, 10:15 AM
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There also seems to be an assumption that the AUS champ will automatically get the No. 2 or No. 1 seed.
What if UQTR wins the OUA and St. Mary's wins the AUS?
UQTR could come out as the No. 2 seed behind Alberta in that scenario.

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03-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SP Saskatuned View Post
There also seems to be an assumption that the AUS champ will automatically get the No. 2 or No. 1 seed.
What if UQTR wins the OUA and St. Mary's wins the AUS?
UQTR could come out as the No. 2 seed behind Alberta in that scenario.
It is possible, but I think its unlikely that UQTR would stay in front of St.Mary's. St.Mary's would beaten UNB which is a lot more impressive than UQTR beating Waterloo, who was the number 6 seed in the OUA. UQTR was only 2 votes in front of St.Mary's in last week's rankings.

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03-06-2013, 11:09 AM
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double post


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03-06-2013, 11:43 AM
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But, really, who knows and that's my point.
There are two conference finals yet to be decided. There are a number of different possible scenarios, some more likely than others, granted, but possibilities nonetheless.
If University Cup history shows us anything, it is as soon as we think we've got everything figured out, we're bound to get thrown for a loop when the final rankings, seedings and draw finally come out. There are often surprises.
It's a total guessing game until then.

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03-06-2013, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SP Saskatuned View Post
There also seems to be an assumption that the AUS champ will automatically get the No. 2 or No. 1 seed.
What if UQTR wins the OUA and St. Mary's wins the AUS?
UQTR could come out as the No. 2 seed behind Alberta in that scenario.
Yes - that seeding scenario could happen, but #2 and #3 are already in the same pool. This might change who USask wants to play on Thurday, but I suspect they want to play the OUA team in their pool regardless of seed and leave the AUS team for Sat.

The other non-hockey impact is the hotel location and dressing room they get - the higher seeds generally get a better hotel and dressing room.

In the case of Moncton-2008, UNB wanted the dressing room they had the previous year when they won, but were located in the Wildcats dressing room instead (it's the biggest one and reserved for the #1 seed).

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03-06-2013, 01:35 PM
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It's not a total guessing game at all. A lot of people here have seen many National championships and are well versed in the mechanics of ranking and seeding.

Your point is well taken: "who knows". That is correct.

But, a lot of people here can make pretty well-informed projections and be right more often than wrong.

Just sayin'.......

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03-06-2013, 02:06 PM
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As Drummer mentioned....since we all assume Alberta will stay #1, exactly which teams are seeded #2 and #3 doesn't really matter a whole lot since they will be in the same pool regardless. The AUS and OUA champ will likely be together, with one being #2 and the other being #3.

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03-06-2013, 04:02 PM
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Hey AUS FAN just want u to reassure the fellas that although you used to be able to see for days out here before the railroad final got here . we now have running water and lots of buildings
the final position of the teams in their conferences determines their hotel placement
ie OUA 1 OUA 2 AUS 1 AUS 2 CW 1 and CW host
not the CIS seeding, crap we can wait for ever! to start the process.
AND
the hotels all have plenty of stars after their description
hilton gardens, radisson, saskatoon inn checkem out!
everything here is brand new! come and check us out!!
teams have their own bus and host with a van at their diposal etc

seeding effects only the draw and the dressing rooms as per CIS regulations! the boys will all get treated very well. so have the fellas calm down a little! if you media boys from the east are staying at the motel 6 next to the Husky well I can't control that!
see ya soon Fred!

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03-06-2013, 06:41 PM
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Just an FYI, Credit Union Centre, used to hold 11,000. The upgrades for the 2010 World Juniors pushed capacity to 14,311. I'm looking forward to the tournament, I always enjoyed attending. Sadly, I live too far to take in many games, but I am heading down for the Saturday night game. The Dogs better win on Thursday, so they play Saturday.

The only downside to playing in such a large arena is that one of Thursday or Friday afternoon games will play to a largely empty arena. One of the two games will have a large number of high school kids taking in an education fair on the concourse. Though, because the game starts at 1, they will likely leave before the end of the game. In 1999, my buddy and I were left behind by my school because they left to be back at school for 3:15 and the game wasn't over yet. Since we were 16, they assumed that we drove ourselves and that's why they didn't miss us.

I'd expect the Huskies games to have similar attendance to 1999 and 2000. I believe both were well over the 10,000 mark. Sadly, the non-Huskies games will be less well attended. I worked at CUC during the 2000 University Cup and the final only had around 3,500. In fact, they made an announcement during the first period that TSN had requested all the fans in the upper level move down so it looked better on TV.

How does the schedule work? Do the top seeded teams in each pool get Thursday off? How does everyone think the pools will turn out?

I suspect that unless Waterloo upsets UQTR, Waterloo will be seeded 6th, the U of S will likely be 5th and the AUS runner-up will be 4th. Depending the outcome of the AUS final, I think you'll see if UNB wins, UQTR 3rd, UNB 2nd and Alberta 1st. If Saint Mary's wins I think Saint Mary's will be 3rd, UQTR 2nd and Alberta 1st.

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03-06-2013, 07:40 PM
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Not sure why there is any confusion about the makeup of the pools and how seeding works.

The CIS regs are quite clear: The three conference winners are seeded 1, 2, 3 by the last Top 10 ranking. #1 seed is in one pool, #2 and #3 are in other. Hard and fast rule.

Since Alberta is unlikely to lose their #1 ranking, they'll be in one pool and the OUA and AUS winner will be in the other and they'll get the #2 and #3 seeding dependent on their ranking. Since teams from the same conference have to be separated (per CIS regs), we know that the AUS runner-up and OUA runner-up will be with Alberta while Saskatchewan will be with the AUS and OUA winners.

Since Sask as host gets to choose evening or afternoon, they'll take evenings like every host does. That means the AUS and OUA winners will also be playing in the evening. So of course Alberta and the other two teams are in the afternoon.

The CIS regs state that normally the top seeds in each pool will play the lowest seed in each pool on the first day. I guess this was designed to give the higher seed Friday off if they win Thursday, and thus avoid playing three games in three days. So we know Alberta is playing Thursday afternoon for sure, versus the lower seeded team between the AUS and OUA runner-ups (this the host committee can play with a bit, but they should look at rankings).

The evening pool is a little more interesting since the host team has the option of starting playing Thursday or Friday night. Sask says they're playing Thursday. If they follow the regs, that would mean they'd play the higher seed between the AUS winner and OUA winner.

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