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Old
03-06-2013, 07:40 PM
  #476
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I would rather go young if we get another goalie. Bishop would be nice to have, but his contract status now will make him a little more expensive. Think you could get him for a 2nd+4th rounder. Or around there. Elliot might be showing his year last year was a fluke.

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03-06-2013, 07:40 PM
  #477
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Is this sort of thing out of the ordinary? I assume there are scouts from all teams going to different games on a regular basis for different reasons.

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Old
03-06-2013, 08:24 PM
  #478
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According to the most recent Button list, the 2nd and 3rd top goaltenders in the upcoming draft are:
40. Eric Comrie (Tri City - WHL)
56. Spencer Martin (Mississauga - OHL)

There seemed to be a lot of buzz early in the season for Martin. He pitched a shutout in the Prospects game. Does anyone have any better info on them than the little on HF?

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03-06-2013, 08:31 PM
  #479
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Comrie had to get hip surgery recently. I'm sure that's scaring teams off.

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Old
03-06-2013, 09:07 PM
  #480
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Really?

In every year but this one, Ryan significantly outscored Voracek.
2013 : 10 G, 17 A = 27 ///// 6 G, 11 A = 17
2011-12: 18 G, 31 A = 49 ///// 31 G, 26 A = 57
2010-11: 14 G, 32 A = 46 ///// 34 G, 37 A = 71
2009-10: 16 G, 34 A = 50 ///// 35 G, 29 A = 64
2008-09: 9 G, 29 A = 38 ///// 31 G, 26 A = 57 (in 64 games)

As for cost, Voracek is cheaper ... by $850,000, younger ... by 2 years, and signed for a grand total of 1 more year.
Cap hit: $4.25 million ///// $5.1 million
Years: 3 ///// 2
The statistical comparison is all well and nice, but of course it's ignoring the fact that Bobby Ryan is 2.5 years older. Is it really fair to compare an 18 year old's production to a 20.5 year old's? A 21 year old to a 23.5 year old, etc?

Voracek has shown elite skills consistently this year. There's no reason to think that giving up on someone with his skating skills, his puck skills, and his vision would be "selling high".

I would honestly be hesitant to trade Voracek for Ryan straight up right now, but if you ask me to add a 1st it's an easy no from me. I don't care about Ryan being more proven in the past, my eyes aren't deceiving me when I watch Voracek. I know what Ryan is: 30-30 player. I think Voracek is better than that.

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03-06-2013, 10:24 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
The statistical comparison is all well and nice, but of course it's ignoring the fact that Bobby Ryan is 2.5 years older. Is it really fair to compare an 18 year old's production to a 20.5 year old's? A 21 year old to a 23.5 year old, etc?

Voracek has shown elite skills consistently this year. There's no reason to think that giving up on someone with his skating skills, his puck skills, and his vision would be "selling high".

I would honestly be hesitant to trade Voracek for Ryan straight up right now, but if you ask me to add a 1st it's an easy no from me. I don't care about Ryan being more proven in the past, my eyes aren't deceiving me when I watch Voracek. I know what Ryan is: 30-30 player. I think Voracek is better than that.
These types of deals obviously need some crystal-ball gazing. I think Ryan will continue to be the better player, and you believe Voracek will surpass him. That's fine. I believe that Voracek is playing over his head right now, so it's not an optimal time point to make a comparison.

I admit that putting the numbers side by side showed me Voracek's totals weren't as far off as I had thought. However, the age difference and contract situation are likewise pretty much a wash.

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03-07-2013, 01:04 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
The statistical comparison is all well and nice, but of course it's ignoring the fact that Bobby Ryan is 2.5 years older. Is it really fair to compare an 18 year old's production to a 20.5 year old's? A 21 year old to a 23.5 year old, etc?

Voracek has shown elite skills consistently this year. There's no reason to think that giving up on someone with his skating skills, his puck skills, and his vision would be "selling high".

I would honestly be hesitant to trade Voracek for Ryan straight up right now, but if you ask me to add a 1st it's an easy no from me. I don't care about Ryan being more proven in the past, my eyes aren't deceiving me when I watch Voracek. I know what Ryan is: 30-30 player. I think Voracek is better than that.
Agreed, I think apples taste more like apples than oranges do too!

Seriously, there is no point to trade Voracek at all. He's finally breaking out as an elite scoring winger. With Giroux, Couts, Simmonds, Read and the Schenn brothers, we have a really good core of talented, tough character kids. Rinaldo, Harry Z, McGinn and Wellwood and Gustafsson are NHL role players long term too. Hartnell, Grossmann, Coburn are good vets. That's 7 young studs, 3 good vets and 5 role players worth keeping. At least two of Cousins, Laughton, Ghost and Stolarz will pan out too.

Watching last night's game just highlights the problem on D. As soon as Grossmann left, the wheels fell off.

If we don't win four of the next 5 games, I hate to say it, but it's time to sell off as much as we can for whatever we can get and try again next year. In a lockout shortened season, a slow start by a young team followed by a bunch of key injuries are killing us.

There is a lot of potential in this roster, and they could still run off a string of wins and make the playoffs. I would not be surprised and I would love to eat these words, but the fates just don't seem to be going our way.

Just when we start coming around, Mez and Hartnell go down. Read starts scoring, then gets a fluke injury on a routine play. Now Grossmann.

McGinn comes up, plays great, then takes two vicious headshots into the boards, no suspensions there, and then breaks an orbital bone in a fight.

What can you do?

Trade Talbot, Fedotenko, Gervais, and even Gagne and Meszaros, if he can get healthy, for whatever we can get.

Do it before the deadline to encourage Briere to waive too. Trade him for the best offer from a tea, he'll agree to go to. There are lots of suitors. Same for Timonen, there's no point him staying around for a mini-tank/rebuild.

Trade Kimmo to Detroit for a couple good prospects/picks and thank him for his service. He'd do great there and they need him

I love Bryz, and he's the only thing keeping us from bottoming out completely, but he could be a buyout candidate. It's easier to keep him for cap reaons if Kimmo and Briere are gone, but losing those three frees up A LOT of cap room.

We'd still have a great core of young players, some solid vets, a great goalie if we want, more assets to build for the future, and cap room to add some UFAs over the next two years.

I hope this plan doesn't need to take effect, but they better start by winning today...

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Old
03-07-2013, 03:30 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
These types of deals obviously need some crystal-ball gazing. I think Ryan will continue to be the better player, and you believe Voracek will surpass him. That's fine. I believe that Voracek is playing over his head right now, so it's not an optimal time point to make a comparison.

I admit that putting the numbers side by side showed me Voracek's totals weren't as far off as I had thought. However, the age difference and contract situation are likewise pretty much a wash.
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think Voracek is playing over his head? He's only 23 years old, it's fairly normal for a player not to break out until he's 23, see Giroux, Claude; he went from 16-31-47 during his age 22 season to 25-51-76 in his age 23 season. If you look up North to Toronto, you'll see another 23/24 year old from the same draft as Voracek that we "gave up on" breaking out: James Van Riemsdyk. And if you look over to Edmonton, Sam Gagner, another top 10 pick from the same draft is breaking out.

Jake Voracek was always expected to be this kind of dynamic player, as proven by his top 10 selection in the draft, it just took a little longer than some would have liked to develop.

At the end of the day, Jake may end up being better than Bobby Ryan, he may end up being roughly the same, and he may end up being the slightly lesser player. Who knows? The kicker for me in this whole discussion is that the trade you proposed wasn't Voracek for Ryan, it was Voracek + 1st for Ryan, a 1st round pick which could easily be in the top 10 of one of the deepest drafts in recent memory.

You basically said that going to the deadline, no player other than Giroux should be untouchable and that no picks should be untouchable and then you proposed the Ryan trade. To me, that basically means that if Anaheim called you up tomorrow and said "Voracek + your 2013 1st for Ryan, deal?" you'd say yes. Is that true?

Because if it is, I don't even know what to say. Dealing our 1st round pick when it's become plainly obvious we aren't making the playoffs would be borderline insane and doing so with half a season left would be even more insane. With our remaining schedule, the potential to sell guys like Briere off at the deadline, etc. our positioning could get a whole lot worse. As things stand right now, if you order us by pt%, we're the 10th worst team in the NHL. If you project everyone's points forward to 24 games so they're all equal to us, we're roughly 1.2 points ahead of the 5th draft spot, which equals a 1 in 12 chance @ Seth Jones via the lottery (or we could realistically trade up for him).

There's no reason to be trading our 1st round draft pick right now; certainly not for the small (or negative) "upgrade" from Voracek to Ryan.

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Old
03-07-2013, 06:13 AM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
These types of deals obviously need some crystal-ball gazing. I think Ryan will continue to be the better player, and you believe Voracek will surpass him. That's fine. I believe that Voracek is playing over his head right now, so it's not an optimal time point to make a comparison.

I admit that putting the numbers side by side showed me Voracek's totals weren't as far off as I had thought. However, the age difference and contract situation are likewise pretty much a wash.
Ryan is nice player. He would help the Flyers a lot. But right now he is a luxury item so to speak. This team needs to rebuild the defense. My contention with Ryan is that it seems he wants to be a Flyers as much as the Flyers want him. So he more than likely will be coming here as a free agent in 2 1/2 years when his contract is up. Why waste the assets now as he is not the missing piece to a cup run. The Flyers would be able to get him at the end of next year when he has me year left on his contract at a reduced cost than now as well, so they should at least wait til the end of next year IMO.

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Old
03-07-2013, 07:58 AM
  #485
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Ryan is nice player. He would help the Flyers a lot. But right now he is a luxury item so to speak. This team needs to rebuild the defense. My contention with Ryan is that it seems he wants to be a Flyers as much as the Flyers want him. So he more than likely will be coming here as a free agent in 2 1/2 years when his contract is up. Why waste the assets now as he is not the missing piece to a cup run. The Flyers would be able to get him at the end of next year when he has me year left on his contract at a reduced cost than now as well, so they should at least wait til the end of next year IMO.
Exactly. Zero need to be trading wingers for wingers, especially trading one that's been close to a PPG in his last 50 or so.

GET SOME ******* DEFENSE HOMER!!

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Old
03-07-2013, 08:54 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Exactly. Zero need to be trading wingers for wingers, especially trading one that's been close to a PPG in his last 50 or so.

GET SOME ******* DEFENSE HOMER!!
Meh, if you can make your team better, you do it. I agree that defense is clearly far and away the biggest concern, but that doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing to upgrade a forward. I don't think I would do Voracek and a first for Ryan, but a deal involving the two would be interesting to me. I pointed this out in a different thread and it kind of went unnoticed by all the people who don't want to trade for Ryan, but he is one of only like 7 or 8 players to have 30+ goals in each of the last four years (those four years being Ryan's first fourt in the league is also significant, and the fact that the first season was under 70 games). That type of player is going to be worth more than just Voracek. Prior to the season I would have said a fair amount more, but Voracek has since brought it closer.

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03-07-2013, 08:58 AM
  #487
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We DO need a game changing D man - someone who takes control all 200' of the ice. We DO NOT have that.

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Old
03-07-2013, 09:05 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Meh, if you can make your team better, you do it. I agree that defense is clearly far and away the biggest concern, but that doesn't mean that it would be a bad thing to upgrade a forward. I don't think I would do Voracek and a first for Ryan, but a deal involving the two would be interesting to me. I pointed this out in a different thread and it kind of went unnoticed by all the people who don't want to trade for Ryan, but he is one of only like 7 or 8 players to have 30+ goals in each of the last four years (those four years being Ryan's first fourt in the league is also significant, and the fact that the first season was under 70 games). That type of player is going to be worth more than just Voracek. Prior to the season I would have said a fair amount more, but Voracek has since brought it closer.
I think we should more upgrade in forwards in terms of our bottom 6. We really need way better bottom 6 players than we do top 6.

Top 6 for the upcoming season:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Simmonds

That's a very good top 6.

Bottom 6 (if we re-sign Gagne):

Gagne-Couturier-Talbot
Rinaldo-xxxx-xxxx

I find that we should find someone to replace Talbot on the 3rd line, make him a 4th liner and possibly get a real 4th line center. I suggest Adam Hall (cheap, big, can win a lot of face offs and an important PKer). The question is, who do we have (not including Briere) that could fill the void perfectly as a 3rd line right winger? I'd say keep Laughton and Cousins out of the Flyers for next season (full AHL seasons would probably be good for them).

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Old
03-07-2013, 09:32 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I think we should more upgrade in forwards in terms of our bottom 6. We really need way better bottom 6 players than we do top 6.

Top 6 for the upcoming season:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Simmonds

That's a very good top 6.

Bottom 6 (if we re-sign Gagne):

Gagne-Couturier-Talbot
Rinaldo-xxxx-xxxx

I find that we should find someone to replace Talbot on the 3rd line, make him a 4th liner and possibly get a real 4th line center. I suggest Adam Hall (cheap, big, can win a lot of face offs and an important PKer). The question is, who do we have (not including Briere) that could fill the void perfectly as a 3rd line right winger? I'd say keep Laughton and Cousins out of the Flyers for next season (full AHL seasons would probably be good for them).
Yeah that would be ideal to slide someone in to Talbot's spot and put him on the fourth line. I am not sure who is out there who could step into the third line winger role, but those guys are usually abundant come free agency. I would like to see a legit enforcer on the fourth line with Rinaldo and Talbot. I know that is not a popular position but I think having a guy that can intimidate is more valuable than people on here like to admit. Maybe a guy like Konopka?

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03-07-2013, 09:37 AM
  #490
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Thoughts on Holmstrom on the 4th line?

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Old
03-07-2013, 09:55 AM
  #491
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I think we should more upgrade in forwards in terms of our bottom 6. We really need way better bottom 6 players than we do top 6.

Top 6 for the upcoming season:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Simmonds

That's a very good top 6.

Bottom 6 (if we re-sign Gagne):

Gagne-Couturier-Talbot
Rinaldo-xxxx-xxxx

I find that we should find someone to replace Talbot on the 3rd line, make him a 4th liner and possibly get a real 4th line center. I suggest Adam Hall (cheap, big, can win a lot of face offs and an important PKer). The question is, who do we have (not including Briere) that could fill the void perfectly as a 3rd line right winger? I'd say keep Laughton and Cousins out of the Flyers for next season (full AHL seasons would probably be good for them).
Laughton won't be eligible for the AHL next yr if I'm not mistaken so its either NHL or back to juniors. The way I see it I don't really care where the player was the year before if they make the team better then there's a spot for them that goes for Cousins, Laughton and our 1st round pick this year assuming Homer doesn't trade it

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03-07-2013, 10:37 AM
  #492
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Thoughts on Holmstrom on the 4th line?
I'd like to see Holmstorm centering Talbot and Rinaldo, could be an awesome energy line that is still good defensively.

I'd really like to see Couts with some capable wingers next year, seeing him try to make offensive plays with Talbot on his line is just sad to watch.

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03-07-2013, 12:33 PM
  #493
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Chris Bourque waived by the B's today, worth a look?

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03-07-2013, 12:46 PM
  #494
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Chris Bourque waived by the B's today, worth a look?
His father is probably a better NHLer at this point. Chris could help the Phantoms though.

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03-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I think we should more upgrade in forwards in terms of our bottom 6. We really need way better bottom 6 players than we do top 6.

Top 6 for the upcoming season:

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Schenn-Simmonds

That's a very good top 6.

Bottom 6 (if we re-sign Gagne):

Gagne-Couturier-Talbot
Rinaldo-xxxx-xxxx

I find that we should find someone to replace Talbot on the 3rd line, make him a 4th liner and possibly get a real 4th line center. I suggest Adam Hall (cheap, big, can win a lot of face offs and an important PKer). The question is, who do we have (not including Briere) that could fill the void perfectly as a 3rd line right winger? I'd say keep Laughton and Cousins out of the Flyers for next season (full AHL seasons would probably be good for them).
Why are you not including Briere?

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03-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #496
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Was thinking if he were to go elsewhere or be bought out. Something.

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03-07-2013, 01:23 PM
  #497
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I find that we should find someone to replace Talbot on the 3rd line, make him a 4th liner and possibly get a real 4th line center. I suggest Adam Hall (cheap, big, can win a lot of face offs and an important PKer). The question is, who do we have (not including Briere) that could fill the void perfectly as a 3rd line right winger? I'd say keep Laughton and Cousins out of the Flyers for next season (full AHL seasons would probably be good for them).
Hall is a fourth liner to me, nothing more.
I like the idea of building an awesome fourth line that can actually play defense. Rinaldo-Talbot-xxxx could work there.
I'd like to give McGinn the chance with Gagne and Couturier. If we get someone from the outside for this spot I'd like someone who can help Couturier to score.

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03-07-2013, 01:49 PM
  #498
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Thoughts on Holmstrom on the 4th line?
I don't think he has a future with the organization to be honest.

He's a career AHLer, has played only 7 games with the big club so far, and turns 26 this April. Solid defense but zero offense, not overly physical. Dime a dozen player.

There is a reason why players like Harry Z., Wellwood or even Sestito got the call over him. Also, he was moved to wing before he got hurt.His long term injury won't help either.

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03-07-2013, 01:50 PM
  #499
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Hall is a fourth liner to me, nothing more.
I like the idea of building an awesome fourth line that can actually play defense. Rinaldo-Talbot-xxxx could work there.
I'd like to give McGinn the chance with Gagne and Couturier. If we get someone from the outside for this spot I'd like someone who can help Couturier to score.
I don't see Hall as anything more than a 4th liner. He would be a great 4th line center though for us. When was the last time we had a normal, full-duty 4th line center?

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03-07-2013, 02:20 PM
  #500
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I don't see Hall as anything more than a 4th liner. He would be a great 4th line center though for us. When was the last time we had a normal, full-duty 4th line center?
Betts? Powe? So at least 2 seasons ago.

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