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MLS vs. NHL Going Forward?

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Old
03-06-2013, 10:41 AM
  #551
scotchex
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The "real" soccer fans debate is just stupid. This is just the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
And the "glory hunter" insult is just meant to make the one hurling the insult feel better about themselves. Silly all the way round.

I will now demand that any non-American who ever wears a NY Yankees cap apologize and start rooting for the Toledo Mud Hens or Albuquerque Isotopes instead. Glory hunters!!11!!1

(The Sugar Land Skeeters would also be acceptable. Any team with a marketing budget is unacceptable and only proof you are a glory hunter -- a no good, no account hunter of glory!!!11!)

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03-06-2013, 10:43 AM
  #552
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I don't think minor league hockey or basketball is a good analogy here.

MLS is the top division on this continent, and thus has marketing, media coverage and stadium experience that represent that.

A better analogy is European Hockey.

Who is a bigger hockey fan: A moscow-ite who gets up at odd hours to watch the Penguins or the one who has Spartak Season tickets?

I think the answer is clearly both. And obviously the KHL will do whatever it can to convert that Pens fan into a domestic league fan.

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03-06-2013, 10:44 AM
  #553
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The Metrostars are my local club, but damn what Portland and Seattle have done is freken incredible in terms of a supporters culture.

This is a scene ripped right out of the pages of Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAzedcKokaU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCENv8mSz2E

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03-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by gelu88 View Post
MLS is the top division on this continent, and thus has marketing, media coverage and stadium experience that represent that.
No its not. Mexican teams have won the last four CONCACAF Champions Leagues. Heck, US teams aren't even among the top 5 leagues of making Championship games in Champions League.

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03-06-2013, 12:06 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by krudmonk View Post
Why do you defend front-runners just because their chosen winning team plays abroad? Anyone attaching themselves to the Lakers or Patriots here gets a stigma, but somehow they are cultured and discerning if they throw their allegiances to giant soccer clubs in Europe.

Those types aren't watching other leagues, they are watching a few big clubs. There are very few overseas fans of teams that aren't perennially near the top of the table. Just look at which games get televised, most involve the same few clubs over and over and over.

And real soccer fans know that European leagues are not of any one standard, as we view the NHL being just above the KHL. Real soccer fans judge the play on the pitch, not the perceived status of a broad range of teams.
#1, it is only logical that if an American becomes a fan of a European team, it is going to be a team they regularly see on tv. #2 seriously doubt there are that many Americans who are claiming to be hardcore Man U or hardcore Barcelona fans. They may watch or follow those teams because they are the teams that are most often on tv here. For example, I believe Arsenal has a deal with YES network (NY Yankees station) to broadcast their games. Logic says that if the deal continues, that arsenal could develop a decent following in NY amongst Americans. Would Arsenal ever overtake the Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Rangers, Knicks, etc in this area? I doubt it, but they could and probably will become the most popular team among Americans i the NY area.

The idea that the NHL is just above the KHL is laughable. The 2 leagues are not even close. The KHL is just above the AHL.


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03-06-2013, 12:21 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Azkals View Post
No its not. Mexican teams have won the last four CONCACAF Champions Leagues. Heck, US teams aren't even among the top 5 leagues of making Championship games in Champions League.
Let's see what happens in this year's CONCACAF CL. Houston won last night, Seattle plays tonight, and LA plays tomorrow night.

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03-06-2013, 12:30 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Azkals View Post
No its not. Mexican teams have won the last four CONCACAF Champions Leagues. Heck, US teams aren't even among the top 5 leagues of making Championship games in Champions League.
Sorry about that. I meant "this continent" the same way we mean North America, ie: Canada US.

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03-06-2013, 02:23 PM
  #558
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MLS has to catch Liga MX before any further aspirations.

We'll see if they have a CCL title in them this year. Remember, its harder for a team in early season form.

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03-06-2013, 03:06 PM
  #559
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Just doesn't feel quite right without some flares


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 04-16-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: QDP
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03-06-2013, 06:52 PM
  #560
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As a loyal supporter of QPR, an allegiance that was forged while living in London and requires a lot of effort, I want to say that any form of fandom is valid and that I totally get why Americans are overwhelmingly drawn to 5-8 big clubs. When TV is how you find the sport, TV will dictate who you're going to like.

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03-06-2013, 07:43 PM
  #561
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As a loyal supporter of QPR, an allegiance that was forged while living in London and requires a lot of effort, I want to say that any form of fandom is valid and that I totally get why Americans are overwhelmingly drawn to 5-8 big clubs. When TV is how you find the sport, TV will dictate who you're going to like.
But shouldn't the internet have some impact on that? TV isn't the only way to stay in touch with the sport now, you can buy online packages (or watch pirated streams) and keep current with virtually every club in any league with a half-respectable broadcast footprint. If anything it's often more convenient to do it that way since it allows greater flexibility in watching delayed replays of games for those who don't want to get up at 7 in the morning every saturday to watch a game.

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03-06-2013, 09:13 PM
  #562
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But the thing is, people aren't seeking out streams and league info until they're already hooked. So unless they're picking a team at random and then pursuing their matches, their formative experiences with the sport are going to come from what they see on TV every week. The number of devoted Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs fans in the US shows that it's not all about titles... just a team that's good enough to be on American TV on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.

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03-06-2013, 11:09 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
But the thing is, people aren't seeking out streams and league info until they're already hooked. So unless they're picking a team at random and then pursuing their matches, their formative experiences with the sport are going to come from what they see on TV every week. The number of devoted Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs fans in the US shows that it's not all about titles... just a team that's good enough to be on American TV on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.
Or that Americans really don't know about quality football...

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03-07-2013, 01:17 AM
  #564
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Timbers Army in Salt Lake, 2011. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ4Qk7IuNk0

(BTW, the smoke makes the flares look more intense than they are... and "sweetened" smoke at that. Yuck. At least there's no populated square mile of the Wasatch front without ice cream or shakes.)

Yes, there were suspensions handed down on fans for that.

Then, from 2006 in Portland (obviously pre-MLS)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ukhdxruj6w



Season long bans for the participants.

2006 was much more a protest in a bad season with all sorts of bad vibes. 2011 was more a demonstration... the situation gets more comical because the league backs up the fan sanctions but used the footage in promotional material.


Last edited by PCSPounder: 03-07-2013 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Pictures! Cheers!
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03-07-2013, 01:37 AM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
But the thing is, people aren't seeking out streams and league info until they're already hooked. So unless they're picking a team at random and then pursuing their matches, their formative experiences with the sport are going to come from what they see on TV every week. The number of devoted Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs fans in the US shows that it's not all about titles... just a team that's good enough to be on American TV on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.
I have to admit that my Spurs preference came from their a.) never actually meeting a Tottenham fan in my life before that point...I hated the idea of fans picking good teams that they had no connection to and b.) that I could follow the team somewhat regularly. Being able to semi-regularly see their games most certainly played a role there. I'm more familiar with them than most of the European teams that I like more, just because of their availability. As much as I'd like to say I follow AGF the most it's pretty hard to follow them here.

They're the only European team that I root for that I have no real connection to...but it's hard to like soccer and not have an English team to follow.

FWIW the other teams I follow (some more than others)...
Aarhus Gymnastikforening (AGF) - Studied abroad there in a season they got relegated. First soccer game I ever saw live was at NRGi Park and it did a lot to sell the game to me.
Kuopion Palloseura (KuPS) - Kuopio is my adopted third home.
Bayern München - My family comes from the mountains around Munich.
FC Barcelona - Three-fold...a.) Barcelona is tied for my favorite city I've ever been to and b.) the vast majority of Spaniards that I studied abroad with were from Madrid and c.) I ****ing hate Cristiano Ronaldo.

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Old
03-07-2013, 03:19 AM
  #566
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Or that Americans really don't know about quality football...
Americans know about quality football. We just don't know about quality soccer.

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03-07-2013, 03:27 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by scotchex View Post
The "real" soccer fans debate is just stupid. This is just the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
And the "glory hunter" insult is just meant to make the one hurling the insult feel better about themselves. Silly all the way round.

I will now demand that any non-American who ever wears a NY Yankees cap apologize and start rooting for the Toledo Mud Hens or Albuquerque Isotopes instead. Glory hunters!!11!!1

(The Sugar Land Skeeters would also be acceptable. Any team with a marketing budget is unacceptable and only proof you are a glory hunter -- a no good, no account hunter of glory!!!11!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelu88 View Post
I don't think minor league hockey or basketball is a good analogy here.

MLS is the top division on this continent, and thus has marketing, media coverage and stadium experience that represent that.

A better analogy is European Hockey.

Who is a bigger hockey fan: A moscow-ite who gets up at odd hours to watch the Penguins or the one who has Spartak Season tickets?

I think the answer is clearly both. And obviously the KHL will do whatever it can to convert that Pens fan into a domestic league fan.
The question is not who is a bigger fan. The question is if someone lives in Spartak territory and ignores them in favor of the Penguins, can you call them a glory-hunter?

I say yes.

It's one thing if a person does not have a local team. If you live in Alaska, who am I to say you can't pick an English club to follow? If you like baseball or American football and you live in Europe, of course you can pick a team.

But if you're an American living in Portland, for example, and can't be bothered to check out the Timbers and instead profess an undying love of Barcelona, I have every right to call you out on that.

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03-07-2013, 07:37 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by GirouxGiroux View Post
The question is not who is a bigger fan. The question is if someone lives in Spartak territory and ignores them in favor of the Penguins, can you call them a glory-hunter?

I say yes.

It's one thing if a person does not have a local team. If you live in Alaska, who am I to say you can't pick an English club to follow? If you like baseball or American football and you live in Europe, of course you can pick a team.

But if you're an American living in Portland, for example, and can't be bothered to check out the Timbers and instead profess an undying love of Barcelona, I have every right to call you out on that.
But is choosing to cheer for a major European team over an MLS team really any different from someone in an AHL city choosing to cheer for an NHL team while ignoring the local AHL team?

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03-07-2013, 08:23 AM
  #569
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"true fan" debates are always entertaining. we're talking about club sports here. these are businesses, the only level of fandom that actually matters is how much money you're spending on your team.

anyone who turns consuming a product into some kind of contest is a sad person.

a club's favorite fans are it's sponsors. the players don't care about how much you sing at a game, they care about how many zeros are on their paycheck.

everyone has the right to spend their money where they please. and if that's simply buying cable to watch Barca instead of the local MLS team, who gives a ****? welcome to the free market, there are no rules here.

The Spanish League is a better product than the MLS, and you can't refute that, especially Barca and Real. Therefore it is in higher demand as a product.


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03-07-2013, 08:30 AM
  #570
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"true fan" debates are always entertaining. we're talking about club sports here. these are businesses, the only level of fandom that actually matters is how much money you're spending on your team.
Most soccer clubs are terrible, money-losing businesses then. Depending on the league, not that many of them are actually money-making ventures - they exist to try and break even if possible while achieving success on the field.

(Although that doesn't apply to MLS, run by billionaires who do indeed someday hope to make money off their investment.)

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03-07-2013, 08:45 AM
  #571
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Most soccer clubs are terrible, money-losing businesses then. Depending on the league, not that many of them are actually money-making ventures - they exist to try and break even if possible while achieving success on the field.

(Although that doesn't apply to MLS, run by billionaires who do indeed someday hope to make money off their investment.)
As long as they sell for more than the owners bought them for, which is why most of the biggest clubs are trying so hard to spread their brands to America and Asia. The bigger the brand is than it was when they bought the team, the more money they're going to make off of the club.

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03-07-2013, 08:49 AM
  #572
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But is choosing to cheer for a major European team over an MLS team really any different from someone in an AHL city choosing to cheer for an NHL team while ignoring the local AHL team?
Yes. The AHL is minor-league. You can't make that comparison.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting it should be the other way around and Americans have to ignore European clubs. I casually follow a couple European clubs. I'm not even saying you have to give a rat's ass about MLS. I'm just saying people who do shouldn't be upset when they're pegged as snobs.

What it comes down to is that I support local teams because I feel they represent me, and I have a hard time comprehending what people get out of supporting teams they have no connection to whatsoever.

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03-07-2013, 09:10 AM
  #573
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But they do have a connection. It's the team they've decided is most worthy of their time and money because it offers the best product, in their opinion. That's why any product is sold more than something else, and that's why Wal-Mart is doing a hell of a lot better than your local butchershop.

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03-07-2013, 09:15 AM
  #574
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Originally Posted by GirouxGiroux View Post
Yes. The AHL is minor-league. You can't make that comparison.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting it should be the other way around and Americans have to ignore European clubs. I casually follow a couple European clubs. I'm not even saying you have to give a rat's ass about MLS. I'm just saying people who do shouldn't be upset when they're pegged as snobs.

What it comes down to is that I support local teams because I feel they represent me, and I have a hard time comprehending what people get out of supporting teams they have no connection to whatsoever.
One could argue that MLS is minor league compared to the top Euro leagues.

But I think it simply comes down to seeing something they like about the team. For example, because of the wide-spread availability for years of Atlanta Braves games on TBS and Chicago Cubs games on WGN, many people in locations all across North America are Braves and Cubs fans rather than fans of the nearest MLB team. Similarly, look at the NFL. I don't think it's terribly unusual to find, say, a Dallas Cowboy fan in Jacksonville.

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03-07-2013, 09:23 AM
  #575
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As a loyal supporter of QPR, an allegiance that was forged while living in London and requires a lot of effort, I want to say that any form of fandom is valid and that I totally get why Americans are overwhelmingly drawn to 5-8 big clubs. When TV is how you find the sport, TV will dictate who you're going to like.
That's how I "found" Manchester United. Back in 1991 we still had only one English league game on tv every Saturday with varying teams. However, Eurosport was around and they covered the European cup competitions extensively. United's games in the Cup Winners Cup competition were shown a lot and when they beat Barcelona (whom I had a semi hate-on), I started following their games on tv and via results on tele-text and papers. Cantona moving to United really set them as "my" team.

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