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What is wrong with the Blues?

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:45 AM
  #51
Robb_K
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
There are probably more direct and accurate answers to this, but my answer is that if the Blues play well, none of this matters.
I agree with you here. When you're playing your game, you don't worry about those things. Trying to adapt to new rule interpretations can get you off your game. We saw that with Backes. The Blues are not playing their game, and a LOT of different factors have contributed to that result. THAT'S why it's difficult to decide what action to take to get them back on their game. They are a mentally fragile team.

Too bad they can't just be hypnotised : "When I snap my fingers you will be cured of your lack of confidence and penchant for forgetting to play team defence, and habit of not playing full-out for 60 minutes. You will train seriously, play hard whole games long, remember that you are the better team when you are fully-disciplined and adhere to your system. Now go forth and win! win! win!"

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03-07-2013, 02:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
There are probably more direct and accurate answers to this, but my answer is that if the Blues play well, none of this matters.
Of course! And this thread's analysis of the "playing well" reasons has been diligent and complete; the Blues lose focus when challenged, fail to play as a 5-man unit, suffer from underproduction or stat-chasing by key players... and more.

The reason I'm curious about the interference issue is because this year's team seems to lack the gritty, unforgiving defense that characterized last year's successful team. This wouldn't be the first time that a new rule or rule interpretation changed the way the game has to be played after a lockout. Rules against holding and for the two-line pass undermined the trap, and the trapezoid remains controversial for creating the dangerous race to the corners.

With that in mind, did the change in interference take the "teeth" out of the Blues' defense?

On the other hand, maybe Colaiacovo really was the keystone.

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03-07-2013, 02:33 AM
  #53
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My corollary question: are the 2013 Blues designed to dominate the 2011-2012 season?

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03-07-2013, 02:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by 417blues View Post
Of course! And this thread's analysis of the "playing well" reasons has been diligent and complete; the Blues lose focus when challenged, fail to play as a 5-man unit, suffer from underproduction or stat-chasing by key players... and more.

The reason I'm curious about the interference issue is because this year's team seems to lack the gritty, unforgiving defense that characterized last year's successful team. This wouldn't be the first time that a new rule or rule interpretation changed the way the game has to be played after a lockout. Rules against holding and for the two-line pass undermined the trap, and the trapezoid remains controversial for creating the dangerous race to the corners.

With that in mind, did the change in interference take the "teeth" out of the Blues' defense?

On the other hand, maybe Colaiacovo really was the keystone.
I don't buy that the Blues are less "gritty" defensively this year. If anything, Polak and Pietro are going a bit more out of their way to be physical compared with last season. The difference is their team play, support, and execution. They aren't quickly assessing situations and then getting in position and making the simple play. The stupid, prescriptive interference-bump calls are not causing that in the slightest.

If that were the case, you'd expect a guy like Russell to shine because he should be able to skate fast enough that the disallowed bump doesn't matter. Yet he is a shell of himself from last year. The difference there is pure execution, which, in this case, appears to stem from confidence.

It's convenient to talk about the officiating changes, especially when the problems are numerous and the solution is somewhat hazy. And there is little doubt that the reffing league-wide has been worse than anyone is used to, but I don't think that is a significant contributor to any of the Blues' problems.

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03-07-2013, 03:26 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
If that were the case, you'd expect a guy like Russell to shine because he should be able to skate fast enough that the disallowed bump doesn't matter. Yet he is a shell of himself from last year. The difference there is pure execution, which, in this case, appears to stem from confidence.
Russell has really been a let-down this year. I've wondered if he effectively recovered from his knee injury sustained during the lockout.

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03-07-2013, 11:07 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
I don't buy that the Blues are less "gritty" defensively this year. If anything, Polak and Pietro are going a bit more out of their way to be physical compared with last season. The difference is their team play, support, and execution. They aren't quickly assessing situations and then getting in position and making the simple play. The stupid, prescriptive interference-bump calls are not causing that in the slightest.

If that were the case, you'd expect a guy like Russell to shine because he should be able to skate fast enough that the disallowed bump doesn't matter. Yet he is a shell of himself from last year. The difference there is pure execution, which, in this case, appears to stem from confidence.

It's convenient to talk about the officiating changes, especially when the problems are numerous and the solution is somewhat hazy. And there is little doubt that the reffing league-wide has been worse than anyone is used to, but I don't think that is a significant contributor to any of the Blues' problems.
I add timely Saves to be the big issue. We are giving up few shots, but no matter how air tight the defense, teams will still generate scoring chances - when that happens the goalie must come up big. Each game a goalie must come up with that one big save to keep momentum or change it. Last year, we had those saves. This year we aren't getting them.

It isn't a personel issue. It really comes down to confidense in the goalie to make that save and this year it is lacking in a big way. It causes players to play tight and lately with the exceptiong of the last two games, we have played from behind a bit. Which causes players to try and make things happen or take the extra unnecessary risk/pass. We also have at times been quilty of cuties plays and passes that have led to turn overs and scoring chances.

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03-07-2013, 11:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1 View Post
I add timely Saves to be the big issue. We are giving up few shots, but no matter how air tight the defense, teams will still generate scoring chances - when that happens the goalie must come up big. Each game a goalie must come up with that one big save to keep momentum or change it. Last year, we had those saves. This year we aren't getting them.

It isn't a personel issue. It really comes down to confidense in the goalie to make that save and this year it is lacking in a big way. It causes players to play tight and lately with the exceptiong of the last two games, we have played from behind a bit. Which causes players to try and make things happen or take the extra unnecessary risk/pass. We also have at times been quilty of cuties plays and passes that have led to turn overs and scoring chances.
But, The Blues' poorer defence, getting caught up ice and out of position has been giving up many more 2 on 1s and breakaways resulting in easy scoring chances that no goalie can stop. It's not just the goalies' fault. The defence (forwards too) is playing poorly

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03-07-2013, 12:48 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
But, The Blues' poorer defence, getting caught up ice and out of position has been giving up many more 2 on 1s and breakaways resulting in easy scoring chances that no goalie can stop. It's not just the goalies' fault. The defence (forwards too) is playing poorly
Yet that poorly playing Defense is giving up the fewest shots in the league. I just can't buy into the blame on the defense, especially for recent games. In our last few games we've come out well, and played fine until our goalies give up a back breaker. That is when the play starts to fall apart because everyone starts cheating their assignments and getting out of position to makeup for it. Our goaltending has not been good enough this year, period. Our defensive play has not been as strong, but it hasn't been nearly bad enough to let the goalies off the hook.

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03-07-2013, 12:52 PM
  #59
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The Blues may be giving up fewer shots than everyone but I'd be shocked if the same were true for quality scoring chances.

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03-07-2013, 01:35 PM
  #60
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The Blues led the league last year with a .936 SV% at even strength. A year later, they are dead last at .884. From first to worst. Clearly, there are multitude of factors that go into that insane decline and our problems are not solely related to goaltending. The low shots against are misleading as they are giving up so many more chances compared to 2011-12 during the regular season. They aren't possessing the puck nearly as much as last year. The team defense is not even close to where it should be and the unnecessary risk taking, led by Mr. Pietrangelo, has increased significantly relative to last year. Last game was one of the few times this year where a clear "timely save" on the 4th goal could've been the difference. But even before that, the Shattenkirk turnover on the 3rd goal was another good example of goaltending suffering from a horrible play by a skater.

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03-07-2013, 03:16 PM
  #61
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It's very obvious that the backchecking is not where it needs to be. I remember the d-men having the opportunity last year to slow down the breakout before they even made it halfway through the neutral zone and then a forward ALREADY being on the puck carrier. That isn't the case at all, it's a lot of dump and chase using the new interference calls against the D.

Now I have a theory question about that situation. Clearly in what has been seen this year so far, our d-men are being very passive about forcing opposing players to the boards at the neutral zone. I know that if they dump it the defenders have maybe a half second to hit them if they are already in a position for that. Why not just try to force the play to the boards earlier, or if that doesn't work just completely hound after the puck immediately after a dump? From what I see now incoming forward is coming in on Polak(example) and dumps it past him, and Russell(example) goes after it behind the net and Polak seems to immediately go right in front of the goalie or assist Russell behind the net, what would the results be if Polak immediately skated hard to the puck or took out his man as the puck is being dumped?

Basically: gap closure

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03-07-2013, 03:32 PM
  #62
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It has been tough for Pietrangelo to get gap closure when one of his step-ups means he's 60 feet behind the play.

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03-07-2013, 03:48 PM
  #63
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It has been tough for Pietrangelo to get gap closure when one of his step-ups means he's 60 feet behind the play.
Well then maybe he should stop causing 2 on 1's

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03-07-2013, 04:11 PM
  #64
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A blogger the other week or two posted that the penalties associated with obstruction were up significantly from last year but the Blues have been whistled for the 6th fewest interference calls and 7th fewest hooking calls. Doesn't really lend a lot of credence to the notion that the tighter officiating standards have hurt the Blues' defensive game. And if anything most of those interference calls that I've observed have been those offensive zone pick plays like the one Reaves got whistled for a game or two ago.

Gap closure is definitely an issue. Teams are gaining the line with possession more often than last year and forcing the Blues defenseman to retreat. That comes from speed which comes from allowing attacking forwards more space than last year which comes from a lack of detail by the backchecking forwards.

And of course the defenseman aren't absolved from the blame as we've talked about with Pietrangelo. He's one of the best puck retrieving, breakout starting defenseman in the league. His over-aggressiveness means he's not the one doing the puck retrieving which means someone inferior is getting the puck. So not only has his risk taking led to more odd-man rushes and worse gap closure but it has also caused the Blues to spend more time in the defensive zone.

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03-07-2013, 04:21 PM
  #65
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And of course the defenseman aren't absolved from the blame as we've talked about with Pietrangelo. He's one of the best puck retrieving, breakout starting defenseman in the league. His over-aggressiveness means he's not the one doing the puck retrieving which means someone inferior is getting the puck. So not only has his risk taking led to more odd-man rushes and worse gap closure but it has also caused the Blues to spend more time in the defensive zone.
An excellent point. I'd noticed this but it hadn't coalesced into a coherent thought like you express it. Pietrangelo quarterbacking from his own zone out is much preferable to him trying to get in on the initial forecheck.

When JR sometimes says in chat that Pietrangelo stepping up is the offensive way the club wants these guys to play, it doesn't take into consideration that getting the puck out of the zone means more time in the opposing zone which means more impact on the offense just by getting to do a lot more of it. One of the hugely frustrating things about this year is that last year they were in the opposing zone a ton but didn't have the finishers and we all talked about Tarasenko being that guy. This year they've had the finishing so if only they could spend more time in the opposing zone they'd be having fewer closer games. Pietrangelo has been trying to have more offensive impact by pushing forward into the play and being one of the cyclers in the zone when he'd really have more impact focusing on starting every breakout.


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03-07-2013, 05:39 PM
  #66
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On offense, Petro leaving the point to battle in the corner is a terrible idea for a few reasons.
  • A quick turnover means either a forward isn't covering or a forward is tasked with defenseman responsibility. Not something anyone should prefer.
  • He is no catalyst in the corner. Normally, he has to defer to another player down low and backpedal.
  • He is an excellent quarterback from the point. So, why not use your strength Petro?
Another issue is having a defenseman lugging the puck over our blueline during our breakout. This jumbles our forwards in the neutral zone and allows the opposition to hold their blueline and collapse on us in the neutral zone. Not a good recipe for entry into the offensive zone. We have had way too many turnovers in this area.

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03-07-2013, 07:36 PM
  #67
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The problem with the Blues starts back with the horrible ownership of Dave Checketts, instead of signing some free agents and having some veteran leadership on the team his crappy management team threw these kids into the fire most should have spent time in the AHL learning the pro game. A great disservice was done to the young talent that Jarmo had assembled. Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ, and many others should have gotten a couple of seasons learning the ropes riding the bus in Peoria.

Most of the blame sits squarely on Armstrong this guy has now destroyed 2 teams and Dallas is just starting a slow recovery from this idiot and his bad decisions. I am still not sure how this guy won GM of the year babysitting Jarmo's draft picks.


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 03-10-2013 at 11:03 PM. Reason: The name is Checketts
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03-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #68
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The problem with the Blues starts back with the horrible ownership of Dave Checketts, instead of signing some free agents and having some veteran leadership on the team his crappy management team threw these kids into the fire most should have spent time in the AHL learning the pro game. A great disservice was done to the young talent that Jarmo had assembled. Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ, and many others should have gotten a couple of seasons learning the ropes riding the bus in Peoria.

Most of the blame sits squarely on Armstrong this guy has now destroyed 2 teams and Dallas is just starting a slow recovery from this idiot and his bad decisions. I am still not sure how this guy won GM of the year babysitting Jarmo's draft picks.
Lol you act like we are Edmonton


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03-08-2013, 01:56 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Yoko Ono View Post
The problem with the Blues starts back with the horrible ownership of Dave Checketts, instead of signing some free agents and having some veteran leadership on the team his crappy management team threw these kids into the fire most should have spent time in the AHL learning the pro game. A great disservice was done to the young talent that Jarmo had assembled. Oshie, Berglund, Perron, EJ, and many others should have gotten a couple of seasons learning the ropes riding the bus in Peoria.

Most of the blame sits squarely on Armstrong this guy has now destroyed 2 teams and Dallas is just starting a slow recovery from this idiot and his bad decisions. I am still not sure how this guy won GM of the year babysitting Jarmo's draft picks.
And you are done. Seriously. I don't know where you were, but they did exactly that. In fact, the only player that was fast tracked was David Perron. That is it.

Do you not remember guys like Petr Cajanek and Martin Rucinsky? What about Bill Guerin? Danny Hinote? Eric Weinrich? What about the first wave of kids that came while the current core was developing, the "Kid Line" of David Backes/Jay McClemment/Lee Stempniak? Did you miss all of that?


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 03-10-2013 at 11:03 PM. Reason: qep
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03-08-2013, 06:43 AM
  #70
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Nothing. Great harmonica player and some good electric slide guitar player or resonator guitar player....I could sit and listen all night.

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03-08-2013, 08:55 AM
  #71
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I agree with you here. When you're playing your game, you don't worry about those things. Trying to adapt to new rule interpretations can get you off your game. We saw that with Backes. The Blues are not playing their game, and a LOT of different factors have contributed to that result. THAT'S why it's difficult to decide what action to take to get them back on their game. They are a mentally fragile team.

Too bad they can't just be hypnotised : "When I snap my fingers you will be cured of your lack of confidence and penchant for forgetting to play team defence, and habit of not playing full-out for 60 minutes. You will train seriously, play hard whole games long, remember that you are the better team when you are fully-disciplined and adhere to your system. Now go forth and win! win! win!"
I'm beginning to believe that during the lockout they may have had too many believing that the season was going to be lockout completely. So they didn't train as hard as they would have.

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03-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #72
Yoko Ono
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And you are done. Seriously. I don't know where you were, but they did exactly that. In fact, the only player that was fast tracked was David Perron. That is it.

Do you not remember guys like Petr Cajanek and Martin Rucinsky? What about Bill Guerin? Danny Hinote? Eric Weinrich? What about the first wave of kids that came while the current core was developing, the "Kid Line" of David Backes/Jay McClemment/Lee Stempniak? Did you miss all of that?
Really a bunch of cap floor players other than Guerin, that is some veteran leadership. Once the money stopped from Laurie and before that the Kiel Center partners this team has floundered. 7 years of rebuild have gotten you what? An embarrassing second round exit in the playoffs of 2012. As fans management should be held to a higher standard sitting through the cheap build from within was just a money grab by Checketts. I just wish they were still getting the 90% of the concession money they had before Checketts buddy got the 50% deal. Dave is still getting money from the Blues to this day and I figure it is worth 2 very good contracts on the ice.


Last edited by EastonBlues22: 03-10-2013 at 11:02 PM. Reason: The name is Checketts
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03-11-2013, 12:26 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Yoko Ono View Post
Really a bunch of cap floor players other than Guerin, that is some veteran leadership. Once the money stopped from Laurie and before that the Kiel Center partners this team has floundered. 7 years of rebuild have gotten you what? An embarrassing second round exit in the playoffs of 2012. As fans management should be held to a higher standard sitting through the cheap build from within was just a money grab by Checketts. I just wish they were still getting the 90% of the concession money they had before Checketts buddy got the 50% deal. Dave is still getting money from the Blues to this day and I figure it is worth 2 very good contracts on the ice.
New Jersey and Detroit manage to do the "cheap build from within" quite effectively, so I'm not sure where that's going.

I suspect it's the old "drink too much/blame Checketts" syndrome, but what do I know.

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03-11-2013, 06:03 PM
  #74
Yoko Ono
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New Jersey and Detroit manage to do the "cheap build from within" quite effectively, so I'm not sure where that's going.

I suspect it's the old "drink too much/blame Checketts" syndrome, but what do I know.
You do realize you picked out 2 salary cap ceiling teams.

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