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St. Louis Blues at LA Kings

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Old
03-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #851
Mike Liut
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I think LA is the best team in the league. They are a bigger and better version of the Blues. This is where the Blues need to get. We aren't there yet.

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03-06-2013, 10:39 PM
  #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I disagree that you can get more information by breaking things down into smaller subsets (i.e. introducing arbitrary endpoints for the data). You're choosing to divide it into a 6-1 start vs 5-8-2 run. You could also break it down into 6-4-1 vs 5-5-1, or 9-5-1 vs 2-4-1, etc. Each one paints a different picture of how our season has gone to this point, and the only way to minimize that potential source of bias is to go for the biggest sample you can get your hands on.

Not that numbers are all that meaningful in this context. The Blues weren't playing "Blues hockey" earlier this year, and I think their worst stretch of team play came in that Nashville to Los Angeles stretch 10 games back. Since then the Blues have been slowly cleaning up their team play, with the first 40 minutes of last game being perhaps the best 2 consecutive periods of team play that they've had all year.
I slightly disagree that the Nashville game was the start of a bad hockey stretch. I think it started in the 3rd period at Detroit in the game before when Backes took the match penalty and the Blues let up three 3rd period goals to lose.

I think you would agree that 3rd period was reminiscent of a lot of Blues games we've seen since then. That is why I chose that game as the cutoff point between "Blues hockey" and atrocious hockey. You seem to agree that the cutoff point is right around there. I didn't think it was that arbitrary. Most would say that was the start of some bad hockey. Why the Blues picked that 3rd period to start playing bad hockey is arbitrary but that is when it began.

I disagree about them cleaning it up. The Chicago game was a train wreck. The Dallas game featured 20 minutes of solid play. The LA game featured less than 40 minutes. The win in Vancouver was a nice lucky one for us. Vancouver pretty much dominated. We escaped thanks to Jake Allen. For every step forward we seem to take at least one step back to where we were.

Quote:
Since the team is 10-7-1 is the team's record in all the games the core (as you defined it) has played together this year, I asked you if you thought that was a pace that warranted the response that you're currently having. It was a legitimate question to you intended to judge just how much of your reaction was based on this recent bit of frustration and how much was based on the "big" picture. It was not a rhetorical represenation of my own views.
It is hard to answer. Overall they were 10-7-1 but they also weren't helping the Blues to victory leading up to their injuries. You said it yourself that the Nashville to LA stretch was the worst of the worst. The whole core played that stretch.
So it is hard to just say that we would be fine if we had them in the lineup. My gut says no. They wouldn't have helped at all against Chicago and they haven't helped against LA in the recent past.

And what is the big picture and what is recent frustration? I guess recent frustration is the last 15 games, out of 22, this year. Is the big picture one playoff appearance in three years? Or is it going back to when Hitchcock took over? But again, shouldn't we look at the start of last year and how these guys got Davis Payne fired? Can we just ignore that(don't know if you are or aren't)?

Where does the big picture get cut off?

For me, the big picture, as I have said, is 2 fired coaches and 1 playoff appearance in the past three years and now another disappointing start.
You haven't convinced me one bit that a large chunk of this core wasn't responsible for that and is once again struggling to keep it together this year. Berglund, Perron, Backes, Oshie, Polak, Steen, McDonald, Jackman...these guys all played a large part in getting both Andy Murray and Davis Payne fired. Most of that group is playing a large part in yet another underwhelming start to a season.

What is really so special about our core? A great 4/5 of a season last year? Is that what we are all hanging on to? Do we just ignore the underachievement the rest of the time in the past 3 1/2 seasons(including this one)?

Quote:
That was a representation of where my perspective is coming from to help add some context to my part in this conversation. It wasn't intended to be a summation of your opinion (hence all the references to "some other fans", etc.).
Well all you said in your last post was "fans", not "some other fans". So that could still include me depending on the style of writing you are using. I couldn't tell if you were speaking indirectly to me or not. I mean you were responding to my post and you were describing the intention of "fans" with regard to what I said. Kind of hard to think you weren't speaking to me considering what I said and what you responded with.

No biggie. I'd like to get off this. It really has nothing to do with hockey.

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Old
03-07-2013, 10:22 AM
  #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
I think LA is the best team in the league. They are a bigger and better version of the Blues. This is where the Blues need to get. We aren't there yet.
I've thought this for quite some time. I know our obvious holes, but what are we missing to be able to truly compete with teams like the Kings?

I basically want to hear other people's opinions on the matter.

More size up front?
More size (*cough* Russell *cough* ) on the Defense?

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Old
03-07-2013, 11:01 AM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illninofan View Post
I've thought this for quite some time. I know our obvious holes, but what are we missing to be able to truly compete with teams like the Kings?

I basically want to hear other people's opinions on the matter.

More size up front?
More size (*cough* Russell *cough* ) on the Defense?
yes
yes and toughness

Come playoff time when teams start hitting again, I see the smaller Blues players getting smoked and made timid. I'm not so sure they can put humpty back together again (McDonald), if he goes down.

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Old
03-07-2013, 11:01 AM
  #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illninofan View Post
I've thought this for quite some time. I know our obvious holes, but what are we missing to be able to truly compete with teams like the Kings?

I basically want to hear other people's opinions on the matter.

More size up front?
More size (*cough* Russell *cough* ) on the Defense?
A top Center to push everyone down a line. Backes should be our #2 and Berglund should be our #3.

A solid, all around D-man to play with AP. Someone like Sidenberg, Marc Staal, Giordano, Robidas, etc.

A time machine so we can go back and convince MTL to give us Price instead of Halak.

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:02 PM
  #856
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If size up front is that much of a problem, and assuming we get the center we need to adhere to BadgersandBlues' scenario (which I agree with and have for a long time), would you consider keeping Cracknell and Porter in the lineup all the time against the bigger banging teams?

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:36 PM
  #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illninofan View Post
If size up front is that much of a problem, and assuming we get the center we need to adhere to BadgersandBlues' scenario (which I agree with and have for a long time), would you consider keeping Cracknell and Porter in the lineup all the time against the bigger banging teams?
Why not take a look at Porter with the likes of a Steen and MacDonald? The least that could happen if someone takes liberties with them is Porter will at least stand up for his teammates. Let him bang in the corners and in front of the net for them. Until Tarasenko returns, it may not be a bad idea. I'd like to see Cracknell with Stewart and Berglund just to see if there may be chemistry. Cracknell is a decent passer.

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Old
03-07-2013, 12:56 PM
  #858
Bluesman91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illninofan View Post
If size up front is that much of a problem, and assuming we get the center we need to adhere to BadgersandBlues' scenario (which I agree with and have for a long time), would you consider keeping Cracknell and Porter in the lineup all the time against the bigger banging teams?
Would love to see Cracknell and Porter stay up. What I would like to see as mentioned in another post, is that we get more top heavy on offense. Trade McDonald, Berglund, and one of Stewart or Oshie for an upgrade at #1 C. A much as I love Oshie and his work ethic, he is not a first line winger and already have Stewart and Tarasenko as our right wingers with both Jaskin and Rattie coming up (Not saying they would play with us right away) on the right side as well. This leaves us with lines of possibly

Perron-#1C-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Stewart
Schwartz-McRae/Sobtoka/Lehtera-Cracknell
Porter-McRae/Sobotka/Lehtera-Reaves

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:02 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Would love to see Cracknell and Porter stay up. What I would like to see as mentioned in another post, is that we get more top heavy on offense. Trade McDonald, Berglund, and one of Stewart or Oshie for an upgrade at #1 C. A much as I love Oshie and his work ethic, he is not a first line winger and already have Stewart and Tarasenko as our right wingers with both Jaskin and Rattie coming up (Not saying they would play with us right away) on the right side as well. This leaves us with lines of possibly

Perron-#1C-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Stewart
Schwartz-McRae/Sobtoka/Lehtera-Cracknell
Porter-McRae/Sobotka/Lehtera-Reaves
Way too much to give up. 3rd line is awful, just depletes our depth.

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:03 PM
  #860
Oberyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Would love to see Cracknell and Porter stay up. What I would like to see as mentioned in another post, is that we get more top heavy on offense. Trade McDonald, Berglund, and one of Stewart or Oshie for an upgrade at #1 C. A much as I love Oshie and his work ethic, he is not a first line winger and already have Stewart and Tarasenko as our right wingers with both Jaskin and Rattie coming up (Not saying they would play with us right away) on the right side as well. This leaves us with lines of possibly

Perron-#1C-Tarasenko
Steen-Backes-Stewart
Schwartz-McRae/Sobtoka/Lehtera-Cracknell
Porter-McRae/Sobotka/Lehtera-Reaves
That kills our depth way too much.

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:10 PM
  #861
JustOneB4IDie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Liut View Post
I think LA is the best team in the league. They are a bigger and better version of the Blues. This is where the Blues need to get. We aren't there yet.
Winner Winner! Chicken Dinner!

What a concept in today's NHL. I won't hold my breath...

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:15 PM
  #862
Bluesman91
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Depth is certainly not everything. Look at other teams 3rd lines and tell me Porter Sobotka and Schwartz couldn't match the intensity levels. Porter, Cracknell, and Sobotka are your typical 3rd/4th line players. Not every teams 3rd line is going to be as good as McDonald-Steen-Tarasenko. Simple as that we do not need 3 lines that CAN score. We need one that WILL score. Bringing in a top playmaking center will certainly help our offense more than running 3 mediocre inconsistent lines.

We keep our most talented offensive players while giving up an old winger, a decent #2/3 center, and a good enough for at least 45-55 point 2-way winger.

While depth is good to have, it doesn't win us a cup. And don't bring up the Bruins team when they won, because they were more experienced, had a better top6 than us and also had a legitimate #1 goalie. We come close to the Bruins, but they simply out skill us in every position

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:30 PM
  #863
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So what is your plan for when an entire line gets injured like how it's already happened? That lineup already lacks depth since you are counting on Lehtera and McRae to be our bottom 2 centers, and with 2 injuries it'd be the weakest forward group in the NHL.

This whole thing is flying over your head.

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Old
03-07-2013, 01:46 PM
  #864
Bluesman91
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
So what is your plan for when an entire line gets injured like how it's already happened? That lineup already lacks depth since you are counting on Lehtera and McRae to be our bottom 2 centers, and with 2 injuries it'd be the weakest forward group in the NHL.

This whole thing is flying over your head.
Same thig every NHL team does, rely on their top 6 to carry.

This team board does like other teams say we do, is overrate our players way too much.

On a budget team do you really believe we will be able to hold on to all of this depth we have while Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Berglund, and Stewart are all due for raises? Then what happens when Tarasenko and Schwartz's ELC's end in a few years? How big do you think that payout will be? On top of the other players who will need their contracts renewed.

Any team who suffers injuries is going to struggle obviously. Not every great team has depth to cover injuries. And to be honest, if we were such a great depth team, why are we still losing with these injuries?

I believe a Porter-Sobotka-Cracknell could be a perfectly capable 3rd line center. I also didn't even include Dagostini in the lineup either so third line would be dags-Sobotka-Cracknell/porter. We still have depth, we are just a bit more offensively talented in the top6 rather than top9.

Will likely never happen though because who would trade they #1 center away that's good for 70+ points. Adding that could turn both Perron and Stewart into perennial 60-70 point players, Tarasenko a 50-70 point player in his early years, Backes could get anywhere from 40-60 points, Steen with 40-60 for our top 6. While our bottom 3rd line players could get anywhere from 10-25 points in a season and our 4th line with anywhere from 0-10. That's not even including point production from our defensemen.


Last edited by Bluesman91: 03-07-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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