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Prospal's play and the gentleman's agreement

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Old
03-05-2013, 10:45 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
And, by having the NMC, he can just say no. Also, I never said trade him to some random team for a 2nd round pick. I am not arguing that we have to trade him (though I think we should). I am arguing that we don't HAVE to keep him because of some agreement. I just think we should look to trade him and Prospal should be willing to be traded. You act like we are trading him to some bad place he will have to play at for 4 years. It will be a few months and most likely on a really good team. Man, that must really be tough to do .
Vinny has a couple young kids.

If I had to spend a couple months away from my family, I know I'd much rather pick my destination, and pick some place close enough that I could still see them regularly.

But since your arguing weather or not the verbal agreement in place should be honored. I argue that there are 2 "should's" in play here. There is the moral question of should the team honor the agreement, and while I think they should. However I think that is overridden by the other "should" argument. They should honor the verbal agreement because Vinny is a big asset to the team, the development of our young players, and they'd be stupid not to.

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03-05-2013, 11:07 AM
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Just thinking the same thing. Nash offered to waive his NMC if it would make the team better and some vilify him as quitting on the team. Now, we're going to piss and moan if VP doesn't want to leave "for the good of the team"?
Hahahaha! Is that what good 'ole Ricky did? I seem to remember it different. Asking for a trade and giving a very short list of who he is willing to go to is what I remember. I thinking "helping the team" was nothing more than a nice story to cover a guy who had, had enough and was bailing on his team. Understand, I don't blame him, but I'm sure not a sucker enough to believe that "out of the goodness of my heart" crap.

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03-05-2013, 11:21 AM
  #53
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Vinny has a couple young kids.

If I had to spend a couple months away from my family, I know I'd much rather pick my destination, and pick some place close enough that I could still see them regularly.

But since your arguing weather or not the verbal agreement in place should be honored. I argue that there are 2 "should's" in play here. There is the moral question of should the team honor the agreement, and while I think they should. However I think that is overridden by the other "should" argument. They should honor the verbal agreement because Vinny is a big asset to the team, the development of our young players, and they'd be stupid not to.
He will be away from them when they aren't playing at home anyway. I guess I just don't think this is that big of a deal. I understand you guys/gals wanting to keep him. I just don't agree with the reasoning.

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03-05-2013, 12:46 PM
  #54
pete goegan
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Hahahaha! Is that what good 'ole Ricky did? I seem to remember it different. Asking for a trade and giving a very short list of who he is willing to go to is what I remember. I thinking "helping the team" was nothing more than a nice story to cover a guy who had, had enough and was bailing on his team. Understand, I don't blame him, but I'm sure not a sucker enough to believe that "out of the goodness of my heart" crap.
Semantics - "asking for" or "willing to accept" a trade. The short list was his right, under contract. Nobody knows what would have happened had Howson not found a willing partner among them. I don't blame you for your interpretation, nor do I fault you for identifying what level of crap would make you a sucker.

I like the pieces gained from New York, but I'd like it much better if there had been a way to add guys like that to him, instead of for him!

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03-05-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fox2usp View Post
Hahahaha! Is that what good 'ole Ricky did? I seem to remember it different. Asking for a trade and giving a very short list of who he is willing to go to is what I remember. I thinking "helping the team" was nothing more than a nice story to cover a guy who had, had enough and was bailing on his team. Understand, I don't blame him, but I'm sure not a sucker enough to believe that "out of the goodness of my heart" crap.
here, here. and I do blame him

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03-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #56
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I just think Rick was looking out for Rick and all the rest was him trying to save some face doing it. I do think Rick is an outstanding player and person. He did a lot of good in this community and his goodbye letter in the Dispatch was sincere and pure class. However, he was not captain material and not a good example to the younger players. I believe the country club was all about Rick's lack of leadership. Not that Rick is a bad person, he's just not a leader. I for one am glad he is gone and love the pieces we got for him. Now Vinny, is the opposite end of the spectrum. The intangibles he brings are worth more than just goals. Vinny is a guy you want directing your young people.

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03-05-2013, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
here, here. and I do blame him
It's "hear, hear".

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Originally Posted by fox2usp
I just think Rick was looking out for Rick and all the rest was him trying to save some face doing it. I do think Rick is an outstanding player and person. He did a lot of good in this community and his goodbye letter in the Dispatch was sincere and pure class. However, he was not captain material and not a good example to the younger players. I believe the country club was all about Rick's lack of leadership. Not that Rick is a bad person, he's just not a leader. I for one am glad he is gone and love the pieces we got for him. Now Vinny, is the opposite end of the spectrum. The intangibles he brings are worth more than just goals. Vinny is a guy you want directing your young people.
I'm unsure of what you're contending here. The problem in Columbus was never Rick Nash or his supposed lack of leadership, the problem was bad management. A fish rots from the head and the continued poor hiring decisions and poor personnel decisions of those in charge of the franchise sank it before it ever had a chance. By all accounts Nash has been one of the leaders in New York this season and has far and away been the best player in a Rangers jersey during his short time here.

This sort of segues into my next point - the new management team in Columbus seems to be very well respected. They are certainly a step up, at least on paper, from Doug MacLean and then Howson/Priest. So why should a "gentleman's agreement" between the previous management group who fostered the so called "country club" atmosphere in Columbus and Vinny Prospal remain in place with the new management group? If Davidson and Kekäläinen determine that this agreement is not in line with the direction they want to take the club, or if they decide someone else would be a better fit in whatever role it is that Prospal would take, why should they hand the role to Prospal based on said agreement?

Now, I'm not saying Prospal shouldn't be resigned or shouldn't get a job with the club post-retirement. What I am saying is that the new management group should be allowed to bring in their guys. If they determine that Prospal is one of their guys and that he'd be a better asset than someone else in whatever position they decide to give him, then by all means they should give Prospal the job. However, he should not be handed anything based on what the failed management group of Howson/Priest decided last year. Jobs with the franchise should be offered based on merit and experience and it is entirely possible that Davidson and Kekäläinen have someone better lined up for the position Prospal would fill.

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03-05-2013, 06:02 PM
  #58
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Start by putting Prospal in your roster for next season. After that, the CBJ should honor the agreement because: 1.) it's the right thing to do and 2.) it's best for CBJ to keep a guy like Vinny in your organ-eye-zation.

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03-07-2013, 05:50 AM
  #59
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I've mentioned this in other threads before but if we resign VP and all of our RFA's (except Gilles) we will have 12 F's signed for next year leaving no room for two of Letestu (who seems to have cooled off a bit), Jenner and #1 (assuming its a NHL ready forward).

So bottom line is we have tough decisions to make regarding VP and the rest of the forward situation.

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03-07-2013, 07:04 AM
  #60
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I've mentioned this in other threads before but if we resign VP and all of our RFA's (except Gilles) we will have 12 F's signed for next year leaving no room for two of Letestu (who seems to have cooled off a bit), Jenner and #1 (assuming its a NHL ready forward).

So bottom line is we have tough decisions to make regarding VP and the rest of the forward situation.
You are correct. But if Letestu & VP are both signed, and I think they should be, that would be a full complement of 13. Do you assume that Jenner and the #1 pick will be a part of the roster? I would think that Jenner would start in SPR, and other than McKinnon or possibly Drouin any other forward drafted almost certainly will. My opinion is that we will not be in the position to get either of those two, 4th to 8th is my guess.

I just don't look for that radical an overhall. We are not going to find our 1st line for next year in this draft. Parts of it sure, but not completely and most assuredly not immediately. If there are some players traded, at the deadline or draft, it most likely will be for picks and prospects which will be incorporated into the system.

The J's will look to build from the bottom "a brick at a time". Players will be sent through the system and developed. Then as they are ready they will move onto the roster. They will take those rosters spots because they are ready and because they are better, not because of their draft position.

I don't look for any blockbuster top end trades. Perhaps some of the defensive depth could be moved for forward help, prospect for prospect. One of Moore, Goloubef, or Prout could garner an equivalent forward. I think the roster we have is the roster we will go forward with until such time as those picks and prospects mature and change it.

I don't know this to be a fact, I am just surmising based on what JD himself has said and done. He hired JK whose strength drafting not wheeling/ dealing. Every pressor or gathering he has stressed his brick at a time theme, growing with the youth, the process of growth etc.

Put it together and I hope we like the Blue Jackets we've got, because I think these are the Blue Jackets were going to see for a while. A young, hard working group, growing up to be a hockey team right before our eyes.

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03-07-2013, 07:06 AM
  #61
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I suspect that at least one forward will be traded at the deadline. Obviously Umberger and Brass are the two most people (including myself) would like to see go.

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03-07-2013, 07:15 AM
  #62
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I'm unsure of what you're contending here. The problem in Columbus was never Rick Nash or his supposed lack of leadership, the problem was bad management. A fish rots from the head and the continued poor hiring decisions and poor personnel decisions of those in charge of the franchise sank it before it ever had a chance. By all accounts Nash has been one of the leaders in New York this season and has far and away been the best player in a Rangers jersey during his short time here.

This sort of segues into my next point - the new management team in Columbus seems to be very well respected. They are certainly a step up, at least on paper, from Doug MacLean and then Howson/Priest. So why should a "gentleman's agreement" between the previous management group who fostered the so called "country club" atmosphere in Columbus and Vinny Prospal remain in place with the new management group? If Davidson and Kekäläinen determine that this agreement is not in line with the direction they want to take the club, or if they decide someone else would be a better fit in whatever role it is that Prospal would take, why should they hand the role to Prospal based on said agreement?

Now, I'm not saying Prospal shouldn't be resigned or shouldn't get a job with the club post-retirement. What I am saying is that the new management group should be allowed to bring in their guys. If they determine that Prospal is one of their guys and that he'd be a better asset than someone else in whatever position they decide to give him, then by all means they should give Prospal the job. However, he should not be handed anything based on what the failed management group of Howson/Priest decided last year. Jobs with the franchise should be offered based on merit and experience and it is entirely possible that Davidson and Kekäläinen have someone better lined up for the position Prospal would fill.
I'll disagree with the first part. The problem with the Jackets was not just management, but also ownership and leadership. And by leadership nash was a large reason. He asked to be captain, basically forced the Jackets hand because he wanted to be like Crosby and some of the other kids who got named captain.

He was a horrible captain and if he had an ounce of leadership he should have approached management and said "guys we're not playing well with me with the C, if you need to make a change go ahead and I'll understand and won't have a problem with it". But he didn't. He turned his back on Hitch the year after the playoffs (he wasn't the first but he followed some of his teammates) after he arguable was a top 10-15 player that season. Once he stopped playing Defense he regressed to his normal self - good goal scorer, not much of anything else. Thing that absolutely ticked me off is I wonder if he EVER attended an optional practice his last 2 seasons here?
I agree he is a nice guy, just from the beginning everyone told him to not waste energy on d (started with Doug) and just score goals. He has all the talent in the world, but he doesn't compete most nights. Hitch turned him into a great player for one season - played both ends, great PK, but he got lazy.

Again this team has been a mess because of bad ownership (too much power given to Doug, then hiring inexperienced NHL talent to run the franchise), to management (I still loved Dougs passion but he hired a team of yes men, to Howson was a capologist, to bad scouting, to Priest becoming a joke during interviews) and bad leadership for a long time (Nash was an issue IMO, plus all the washed up guys we brought in to be vocal leaders to support him, to Doug putting a muzzle on Feds when he called out Nash and Zherdev). Just a joke of a franchise. In JD I trust (I hope).

As for the gentleman's agreement - that ceases to exist once Howson got fired. That's just IMO. I like Vinny, but his deal was with Howson (I think). if the deal was with ownership then they should honor it, but assuming it was with Howson, then Howson's replacement can do whateer he wants.

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03-07-2013, 07:21 AM
  #63
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@JDavid
I don't blame Rick. Nash was another VICTIM in a long line of mis-management victims.
He wasn't a natural born leader but he was all we had at the time after XGM wet behind the ears SH ran off Foote by low-balling him on a contract extension and not fulfilling team-improvement commitments to him. That's management's fault.

I agree that ownership deserves its fair share of the blame.
It was nice that the old man put up the money for the team, but it was unfortunate that he was too sick and unfamiliar with how to run a hockey franchise to pull the plug on DMac, et al, and get a strong experienced GM when we needed it.

I hope JD honors whatever commitments were made to Vinnie.

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03-07-2013, 07:34 AM
  #64
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I don't think Victim is the right word for Nash. He did ask for the "C" (going into an offseason where the team was desperately trying to lock him up long term).

Certainly part of the failings of the on ice product have to fall to the team's on ice leadership. Would the team have been as poor (not just in the W-L column, but the effort) had Nash not mentally been checked out for a while?

Its hard to point at one person and say 'Thats who's to blame"

Was Howson a better GM than some give him credit for? We'll never know because the on ice leadership was terrible or non existant.... Inmates running the asylum. Don't like the coach? just "quit" and he'll be gone soon, nobody's grabbing the ringleaders of those movements and putting them in their place.

You can demand excellence without screaming and yelling at the players or coaches. Neither entrenched management, nor the player leadership cared enough the last few seasons to demand excellence. Say what you will about who drove the Nash trade bus, this is the reason neither he, nor Howson, are still here. There wasn't enough of a desire from either to demand positive results.

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03-07-2013, 08:05 AM
  #65
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No one on this board knows if Nash was a "good" captain or a "bad" captain - no matter how much of an insider that poster imagines himself/herself to be.

And in reality, it didn't really matter. The CBJ management made enough poor decisions over the years that the issue of who was captain was just background noise in the slide to the bottom of the NHL which resulted.

And with respect to VP - I can't believe that anyone who is glad that Howson is no longer GM would want the new management to continue to follow his blueprint/honor his "gentleman's agreement." JD and JK need to do what's best for the CBJ going forward. If that includes VP, then great. If not, then that's the way it needs to be.


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03-07-2013, 08:47 AM
  #66
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And with respect to VP - I can't believe that anyone who is glad that Howson is no longer GM would want the new management to continue to follow his blueprint/honor his "gentleman's agreement." JD and JK need to do what's best for the CBJ going forward. If that includes VP, then great. If not, then that's the way it needs to be.
Just because I didn't like Howson's entire resume, that doesn't mean I didn't like parts of it. Prospal, by all accounts, has been nothing but a positive for this team. You are correct in that the new front office should and will evaluate Prospals' future with this team, however if there is any ex-player you want to include in the organization after retirement, Prospal is way up there. His production is also a bargain at 2+ million until he does retire.

I guess what I am saying is, while I agree with you in principle (at least the conclusion, not necessarily how you got there), it would be difficult to see a scenario in which deciding to honor the old agreement would be anything other than a positive for the team. I lead the get rid of Howson bandwagon for a long time, however I can keep objectivity with analyzing his decisions. Just because Howson made this agreement, it doesn't mean it was a bad one.

Where would this team be without Prospal right now? Hard to tell, but it certainly wouldn't be in better shape.

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03-07-2013, 08:51 AM
  #67
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Just because I didn't like Howson's entire resume, that doesn't mean I didn't like parts of it. Prospal, by all accounts, has been nothing but a positive for this team. You are correct in that the new front office should and will evaluate Prospals' future with this team, however if there is any ex-player you want to include in the organization after retirement, Prospal is way up there. His production is also a bargain at 2+ million until he does retire.

I guess what I am saying is, while I agree with you in principle (at least the conclusion, not necessarily how you got there), it would be difficult to see a scenario in which deciding to honor the old agreement would be anything other than a positive for the team. I lead the get rid of Howson bandwagon for a long time, however I can keep objectivity with analyzing his decisions. Just because Howson made this agreement, it doesn't mean it was a bad one.

Where would this team be without Prospal right now? Hard to tell, but it certainly wouldn't be in better shape.
This is very well stated (which means I agree with it!).

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03-07-2013, 11:51 AM
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@JDavid
I don't blame Rick. Nash was another VICTIM in a long line of mis-management victims.
He wasn't a natural born leader but he was all we had at the time after XGM wet behind the ears SH ran off Foote by low-balling him on a contract extension and not fulfilling team-improvement commitments to him. That's management's fault.
Today I learned that 14 combined years as an AHL GM and NHL assistant GM still qualifies one as "wet behind the ears".

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03-07-2013, 11:54 AM
  #69
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Today I learned that 14 combined years as an AHL GM and NHL assistant GM still qualifies one as "wet behind the ears".
He was a noob GM.

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03-07-2013, 12:36 PM
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He was a noob GM.
He was less of a noob at that point than our current GM.

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03-07-2013, 12:40 PM
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He was a noob GM.
As were they all, once.

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03-07-2013, 12:59 PM
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He was less of a noob at that point than our current GM.
guessing at BB's meaning but n00b vs. newb

there is a difference

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03-07-2013, 01:35 PM
  #73
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He was less of a noob at that point than our current GM.
Not really.

Jarmo was a GM in the Finnish Elite League starting in 1995. He won 1 league championship and finished second during his 4 years there. He left to be director of player personnel for the Sens from 1999-2002. From there he was with St. Louis where he was an Assistant GM. He left in 2010 to return to Finland to be GM of Jokerit. Jokerit finished third last year and is presently 1st in SM Liiga.

Howson was only an Assistant GM for 5 years before joining the Jackets. Before that he was GM of a farm team, which is a very different job from managing a team in your country's highest level hockey league. No, SM Liiga is not the NHL or even the SEL. But Jarmo's experience bringing two teams to the top of the Finnish league is more of an accomplishment than the Hamilton Bulldogs winning the Calder Cup.

All told, Jarmo has over 17 years of experience in hockey management including more than 5 as a general manager. I think people are kidding themselves if they think this isn't a step above Howson's experience when he arrived.

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03-07-2013, 01:37 PM
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Nash was neither a good captain nor a bad captain. He was an ineffective captain.

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03-07-2013, 01:41 PM
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Not really.

Jarmo was a GM in the Finnish Elite League starting in 1995. He won 1 league championship and finished second during his 4 years there. He left to be director of player personnel for the Sens from 1999-2002. From there he was with St. Louis where he was an Assistant GM. He left in 2010 to return to Finland to be GM of Jokerit. Jokerit finished third last year and is presently 1st in SM Liiga.

Howson was only an Assistant GM for 5 years before joining the Jackets. Before that he was GM of a farm team, which is a very different job from managing a team in your country's highest level hockey league. No, SM Liiga is not the NHL or even the SEL. But Jarmo's experience bringing two teams to the top of the Finnish league is more of an accomplishment than the Hamilton Bulldogs winning the Calder Cup.

All told, Jarmo has over 17 years of experience in hockey management including more than 5 as a general manager. I think people are kidding themselves if they think this isn't a step above Howson's experience when he arrived.
And JD knows him, worked with him. There is something to be said for no suprises.

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