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Old
02-18-2013, 07:55 AM
  #151
ChiTownPhilly
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Thanks for all the work! It was a fun read poring through this entire thread (as well as the 'pre-1950' thread). The topic has interested me for a long time... and (as can be imagined) I have my own thoughts about this.

General principles- I suppose "career-value" is the Cadillac measure... but obviously there are other factors that I note were (rightly) taken into account e.g.: 1) playoff performance, 2) peak. Concerning the latter, it's sort of ironic that inconsistency, especially at Goaltender position, can yield outsized rewards- like if a nice goalie has an annus mirabilis and helps his team "steal" a Cup. Concerning the former, I see that it carries proper-looking weight... for it explains the relatively high presence of Parent, B. Smith et al. Now, on to the more frequently-discussed placings...

A. Re: Roy over Hašek- I'm okay with this. I know I'm doing some cherry-picking- but keep in mind that Roy carried an all right Montreál team to its last Cup- and Hašek didn't arrive at that level until he backstopped a team sprinkled with future Hall-of-Famers. Now, I recognize that Hašek did amazing things to get Buffalo as close as they did... but somebody has to be second. I think we got it right.

B. Brodeur. I might be speaking too soon- but Brodeur doesn't appear to be doing anything (on the ice) to hurt his legacy. Is it ridiculous to think that the Devils can make yet another Cup run? On this date (18 Feb. 2013), it seems ridiculous to say they can't. And if they do, Brodeur's placement ought to be re-assessed.

C. Vézina-Gardiner-Benedict- I've taken note of the posts on Vézina that make a special point to do "counter-missionary" work on Benedict. Also (in the interest of full disclosure) I'm a Blackhawks fan- so I'll be unable to entirely detach my emotion from the Charlie Gardiner story. But I have to make a responsible effort. I don't place a lot of weight behind contemporary accounts of Vézina's putative superiority over Benedict. Keep in mind three things- 1) as Thorn & Palmer opine out in the Sabremetrics world, sometimes (like instrument-rated flying) you have to distrust your senses and put your trust in the gauges. The gauges, such as they exist, don't say much that incline against Benedict in a contrast with Vézina. 2) At the time of his ascendency, Benedict was viewed a gimmicky goaltender for leaving his feet, and (not infrequently) considered a borderline-cheater for doing so. This, of course, ran counter to the "more pure" Vézina style. I'm convinced that this colored a good deal of the commentary. 3) There's the obvious halo-effect of a player's early and tragic death. There are clearer examples of this causing folks to overrate athletes... I believe that (in baseball) Roberto Clemente is a particularly infamous one. I believe the effect on Vézina's legacy, though less notable, oughn't be overlooked.

Gardiner vs. the others... a while back, I pored through the statistical record, to the extent that one is present, in search of anything that I could use to place Gardiner on the same plane as Benedict, or Vézina. I was a motivated researcher- wanting to find something that would let me make a case for him. After a spirited search, I didn't come up with anything that would let me say that Gardiner, great though he was, was a superior goaltender to Benedict or Vézina. So- by my reckoning, I'd say Benedict-Vézina-Gardiner.

Again, thanks to all the users that did the 'heavy-lifting' on this.


Last edited by ChiTownPhilly: 02-18-2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: minor correction
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02-19-2013, 04:30 AM
  #152
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Now that all of the Round 1 votes are revealed and we know who did not cast a ballot for the first vote of Round 2, we can see that the 24/27 voters went from this:


PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7thN/R
Dominik Hasek149129200010
Patrick Roy138610521000
Jacques Plante12755931100
Terry Sawchuk8400595401
Glenn Hall77103213320
Martin Brodeur5900063843
Ken Dryden26000104145


to this:


PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th
Patrick Roy149 (+11)10 (+4)103 (-2)1 (-1)0 (-1)00
Dominik Hasek146 (-3)11 (-1)8 (-1)4 (+2)0001
Jacques Plante121 (-6)2 (-3)512 (+3)2 (-1)3 (+2)0 (-1)0
Glenn Hall87 (+10)10311 (+9)4 (-9)4 (+1)1 (-1)
Martin Brodeur69 (+10)002 (+2)5 (-1)9 (+6)4 (-4)4
Terry Sawchuk63 (-21)01 (+1)0 (-5)5 (-4)4 (-1)11 (+7)3 (+3)
Ken Dryden37 (+9)0000 (-1)4 (+4)5 (+1)15 (+1)


Of those 24 voters, 18 cast a unique #1-7 ballot in Vote 1. Pairs of voters had the same #1-7 in Vote 1, but no three individuals had the same #1-7.

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02-19-2013, 03:12 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Now that all of the Round 1 votes are revealed and we know who did not cast a ballot for the first vote of Round 2, we can see that the 24/27 voters went from this:


PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7thN/R
Dominik Hasek149129200010
Patrick Roy138610521000
Jacques Plante12755931100
Terry Sawchuk8400595401
Glenn Hall77103213320
Martin Brodeur5900063843
Ken Dryden26000104145


to this:


PlayerTotal1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th
Patrick Roy149 (+11)10 (+4)103 (-2)1 (-1)0 (-1)00
Dominik Hasek146 (-3)11 (-1)8 (-1)4 (+2)0001
Jacques Plante121 (-6)2 (-3)512 (+3)2 (-1)3 (+2)0 (-1)0
Glenn Hall87 (+10)10311 (+9)4 (-9)4 (+1)1 (-1)
Martin Brodeur69 (+10)002 (+2)5 (-1)9 (+6)4 (-4)4
Terry Sawchuk63 (-21)01 (+1)0 (-5)5 (-4)4 (-1)11 (+7)3 (+3)
Ken Dryden37 (+9)0000 (-1)4 (+4)5 (+1)15 (+1)


Of those 24 voters, 18 cast a unique #1-7 ballot in Vote 1. Pairs of voters had the same #1-7 in Vote 1, but no three individuals had the same #1-7.
Good stuff. Seems like only 1 voter switched his 1st place vote from Hasek to Roy, but a couple switched from Plante to Roy. Also, seems like Roy probably picked up a bit of support from Sawchuk too. But the main changes between Rounds 1 and 2 seem to be Plante supporters going to Roy and Sawchuk supporters going to... basically everyone but Hasek.

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02-20-2013, 12:26 PM
  #154
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Here is my top five:

1 Tretiak (a no-brainer)

2 Roy

3 Billy Smith (heavily underrated in this forum)

4 Hasek

5 Sawchuk

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02-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Bolded. I think that you could say that about many other great goalies on the list. And unlike some others, Tretiak always played for teams (the Soviet ntl team and CSKA) that were nearly always favoured to win their opponents; yet USSR was not the world champion in 1972, 1976 and 1977 and did not win the olympic gold in 1980. CSKA failed to win the Soviet league title in 1974 and 1976. Tretiak was also in goal when Czechoslovakia beat USSR 7-2 in the 1974 WC and 8-3 in the 1977 Izvestia tournament. Obviously, this is not all Tretiak's fault, but there are those occasions when he couldn't help his team to win...

I can understand that watching Tretiak's best games like the 1975 game vs. Montreal and the 1981 Canada Cup final (and there are many other great ones) might give the impression that he was 'the best of all-time'. But unfortunately, he did not always play like that; probably not even 'most of the time'.

e.g.

1979 Challenge Cup, game 2, the highlights (16 shots against, 4 goals against):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvotpb8LuzU


Buffalo Sabres vs CSKA, 1980, the goals:

1-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM#t=10m10s 2-0
2-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=24m45s
2-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=87m52s
3-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=90m40s
4-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=99m58s
5-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=102m14s
6-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzLQNfZJzuM&t=108m15s


All good goalies have their bad days at times. Even Roy and Hasek had awful performances in their careers, however, it does not mean they were mediocre netminders.

PS. Why Billy Smith is so low?

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02-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
1 Tretiak (a no-brainer)
I'm afraid "no-brainer" is a foreign word around here because most people actually use their brain when they try to rank players.

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02-20-2013, 02:12 PM
  #157
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
All good goalies have their bad days at times. Even Roy and Hasek had awful performances in their careers, however, it does not mean they were mediocre netminders.

PS. Why Billy Smith is so low?
The best thing about this project is that all the arguments used to create the final list are well documented in the links at the bottom of the original post.

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02-20-2013, 03:06 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The best thing about this project is that all the arguments used to create the final list are well documented in the links at the bottom of the original post.
In fairness, we don't have any arguments comparing Tretiak, Roy, and Hasek to Billy Smith, because no one on our panel thought to ever do such a thing.

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02-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
All good goalies have their bad days at times. Even Roy and Hasek had awful performances in their careers, however, it does not mean they were mediocre netminders.
Oh really? Gosh, thanks

My point certainly wasn't "look, he played couple of bad games, so he isn't the best".

I've seen tons of Tretiak, and quite frankly, I've still not fully made my mind up about him. At his best, yep, he looked something close to unbeatable; big, acrobatic and seemed to have some mental edge over many opposite forwards - including some NHL players. His MVP voting record in Soviet Union is also very impressive indeed. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of bad games from him too, his statistics (GAA etc.) are not overly impressive, when you compare them with other USSR goalies, for example. At the World Championships, the directorate, journalists etc. seemed to favour Jiri Holecek over Tretiak and sometimes other goalies as well. Based on his accolades in international tournaments, you can't really even call him the best 'European' goalie of his time.

BTW, in Finland, there's generally a lot of love (even worship) towards Tretiak. I think if there was a 'Greatest goalie' poll conducted here, he would probably win it. That's because many people still remember USSR and Tretiak from 1970s/1980s and the way they nearly always destroyed the Finnish ntl team. Most casual hockey fans in Finland probably don't even know who Jacques Plante or Terry Sawchuck were. They do know who Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are, but didn't watch them regularly. I've heard some Finnish journalists call Tretiak "the best goaltender of all-time", as if it was given, without any sort of backing... or the argument has been "well, he has 3 Olympic golds!" and the like.


Last edited by VMBM: 02-21-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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02-22-2013, 07:39 PM
  #160
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I agree that Brodeur should be ranked higher and I have the Dominator over Roy.

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02-22-2013, 10:03 PM
  #161
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I agree that Brodeur should be ranked higher
You agree with whom? Certainly not the listmakers in aggregate.

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02-27-2013, 09:39 AM
  #162
Yamaguchi
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Oh really? Gosh, thanks

My point certainly wasn't "look, he played couple of bad games, so he isn't the best".

I've seen tons of Tretiak, and quite frankly, I've still not fully made my mind up about him. At his best, yep, he looked something close to unbeatable; big, acrobatic and seemed to have some mental edge over many opposite forwards - including some NHL players. His MVP voting record in Soviet Union is also very impressive indeed. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of bad games from him too, his statistics (GAA etc.) are not overly impressive, when you compare them with other USSR goalies, for example. At the World Championships, the directorate, journalists etc. seemed to favour Jiri Holecek over Tretiak and sometimes other goalies as well. Based on his accolades in international tournaments, you can't really even call him the best 'European' goalie of his time.

BTW, in Finland, there's generally a lot of love (even worship) towards Tretiak. I think if there was a 'Greatest goalie' poll conducted here, he would probably win it. That's because many people still remember USSR and Tretiak from 1970s/1980s and the way they nearly always destroyed the Finnish ntl team. Most casual hockey fans in Finland probably don't even know who Jacques Plante or Terry Sawchuck were. They do know who Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek are, but didn't watch them regularly. I've heard some Finnish journalists call Tretiak "the best goaltender of all-time", as if it was given, without any sort of backing... or the argument has been "well, he has 3 Olympic golds!" and the like.



Exactly. I haven't seen Holecek leading his team to a victory at Canada Cup or the Olympics.

But what can I say if someone is in love with the Czech goaltenders...

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02-28-2013, 01:26 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Exactly. I haven't seen Holecek leading his team to a victory at Canada Cup or the Olympics.
That's mostly because he wasn't the goalie for the Soviet national team - or Team Canada (Canada Cups), i.e. the top 2 hockey nations in the world in the 1970s. And what's the big deal about the Winter Olympics pre-1998? The only value it had over the World Championships of the time was that it was held in every four years; the quality of the teams wasn't any better and sometimes even worse (1976 Olympics). And Tretiak should have 4 Olympic golds... and probably would have, had he played better in the 1980 tournament.

Quote:
But what can I say if someone is in love with the Czech goaltenders...
Oh, so the IIHF Directorate (Best goalie award) and the media (All-Star teams) were IN LOVE with Holecek; that's what it was! They were also apparently in love with Göran Högosta in 1977, Peter Lindmark in 1981, Jiri Kralik in 1982...

I don't know what you are whining about anyway; Tretiak finished well above Holecek in this all-time list. As he should have IMO too.

ping pong ping pong...


Last edited by VMBM: 02-28-2013 at 01:33 AM.
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03-06-2013, 05:47 PM
  #164
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Seems very odd to see Roy ahead of Hasek because 1 guy apparantly thinks Hasek is the 7th best goalie of all time. How can the list be legit when people with an obvious bias towards a player is allowed to vote? In my opinion it's very hard to take this list seriously after that. I remember watching the results after the 1st poll and basically didn't care anymore after.

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03-06-2013, 05:48 PM
  #165
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Seems very odd to see Roy ahead of Hasek because 1 guy apparantly thinks Hasek is the 7th best goalie of all time. How can the list be legit when people with an obvious bias towards a player is allowed to vote?
We dealt with this awhile ago.

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03-06-2013, 05:56 PM
  #166
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We dealt with this awhile ago.
Oh. Sorry then. Guess I'll spend some time reading through the pages.

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03-06-2013, 06:50 PM
  #167
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Oh. Sorry then. Guess I'll spend some time reading through the pages.
In particular, see the individual voting thread for Canadiens1958, linked in the OP, which is where this topic was discussed in detail.

While I disagree with his ballot, I think the consensus was that his opinion was based on a valid perspective, and not outright bias or sabotage.

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03-06-2013, 08:08 PM
  #168
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Interesting list.

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03-07-2013, 07:01 AM
  #169
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Seems very odd to see Roy ahead of Hasek because 1 guy apparantly thinks Hasek is the 7th best goalie of all time. How can the list be legit when people with an obvious bias towards a player is allowed to vote? In my opinion it's very hard to take this list seriously after that. I remember watching the results after the 1st poll and basically didn't care anymore after.
Seven voters ranked Roy higher on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. No one ranked Roy lower on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. Three voters ranked Hasek lower on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. No one ranked Hasek higher on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. The willingness of the participants in the discussion rounds to change established opinions based upon new or lesser-known evidence makes our list legitimate.

Next time, submit a list of 60 goaltenders - or at the very least, make an argument. One-third of our voters changed their minds on a subject that has been discussed to death over the last several years; if you had an argument to make, they would have listened.

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03-07-2013, 10:45 AM
  #170
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Seven voters ranked Roy higher on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. No one ranked Roy lower on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. Three voters ranked Hasek lower on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. No one ranked Hasek higher on Vote #2 than they did on Vote #1. The willingness of the participants in the discussion rounds to change established opinions based upon new or lesser-known evidence makes our list legitimate.

Next time, submit a list of 60 goaltenders - or at the very least, make an argument. One-third of our voters changed their minds on a subject that has been discussed to death over the last several years; if you had an argument to make, they would have listened.
If you bothered to read the previous 4 posts before posting yourself, you'd know your post is irrelevant. It's been resolved. As I wrote I'll read through his comments for placing Hasek as the 7th best goalie considering that's 4 spots lower than anyone else has ranked him, it will be interesting.

Also, no list based on 27 peoples opinions is ever legit, it's fun, and somewhat interesting, but far from legit, if by legit we're talking having any value.


Last edited by Jonimaus: 03-07-2013 at 11:13 AM.
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03-07-2013, 01:07 PM
  #171
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If you bothered to read the previous 4 posts before posting yourself, you'd know your post is irrelevant. It's been resolved. As I wrote I'll read through his comments for placing Hasek as the 7th best goalie considering that's 4 spots lower than anyone else has ranked him, it will be interesting.

Also, no list based on 27 peoples opinions is ever legit, it's fun, and somewhat interesting, but far from legit, if by legit we're talking having any value.
Since you're the one who came here months after the fact to complain about the voting in round 1, maybe you shouldn't lecture others about something being resolved.

If you think the list has no value (seemingly because the first vote didn't go your way), you're free not to pay attention to it.

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03-07-2013, 02:20 PM
  #172
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Since you're the one who came here months after the fact to complain about the voting in round 1, maybe you shouldn't lecture others about something being resolved.

If you think the list has no value (seemingly because the first vote didn't go your way), you're free not to pay attention to it.
Oh definitely not. I just figured I'd return the favour since he kinda did the same. I didn't mean to derail the thread, but since this list was made out of 27 individuals opinions, I do not think it carries too much weight. It is interesting, as I wrote, but I hold more value to the discussions that I read before, and now after when the list was made, than to the actual result.

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03-07-2013, 05:17 PM
  #173
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Oh definitely not. I just figured I'd return the favour since he kinda did the same. I didn't mean to derail the thread, but since this list was made out of 27 individuals opinions, I do not think it carries too much weight. It is interesting, as I wrote, but I hold more value to the discussions that I read before, and now after when the list was made, than to the actual result.
So what are you looking for, Top 40 on stone tablets carried down from Mount Sinai?

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03-07-2013, 05:27 PM
  #174
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So what are you looking for, Top 40 on stone tablets carried down from Mount Sinai?
Don Cherrys top 40 obviously.

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03-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #175
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Don Cherrys top 40 obviously.
Hardy Astrom vs. Gerry Cheevers for the top spot?

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