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The All-Purpose Goaltending Thread #8

View Poll Results: Should we use an amnesty buyout on Bryz?
Hell Yes! 65 72.22%
Hell No! 25 27.78%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #426
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Shots on goal means crap. The issue that needs to be addressed is how many scoring chances are the Flyers giving up per game? If they're only giving up 25 shots per game, but the scoring chances are 15, that's far too many scoring chances. And that's the problem with the system right now. Yes, they don't give up a crazy amount of shots per game. The problem with the system is that the shots they do give up always lead to very high percentage scoring chances.

One of the things I notice about the Flyers is that in general, when they're in the defensive zone, they are a complete mess. They're often out of position or they're in some sort of mad scramble. The fact that they're so disorganized allows the opposition to set themselves up and create a high percentage scoring chance out of the situation. You don't need a lot of shots to create scoring chances when the team is giving up space and positioning. It's horrible watching how poor they play in the defensive zone. And Bryz certainly isn't helping right now, but it doesn't fall solely on him.

The team is failing because of three fundamental things - defensive awareness (when to transition to defense), defensive coverage (once again, when the team is in their end, it's a mad panic and they look completely lost) and limiting scoring chances (this is a team that regularly gives up 12 to 15 high percentage scoring plays a game - that's far too many for any team to surrender and expect their goaltender to bail them out).

Bryz is the least of our concerns. Put any goaltender back behind the Flyers and .903 save percentage would be considered a win.

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03-07-2013, 03:20 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
are you, too, gonna you call it a "high % shot" vs COLO & a "gem" by Bryz ?
Glad to see you ignored the majority of my post. Well done.

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03-07-2013, 03:21 PM
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Shots on goal means crap. The issue that needs to be addressed is how many scoring chances are the Flyers giving up per game? If they're only giving up 25 shots per game, but the scoring chances are 15, that's far too many scoring chances. And that's the problem with the system right now. Yes, they don't give up a crazy amount of shots per game. The problem with the system is that the shots they do give up always lead to very high percentage scoring chances.

One of the things I notice about the Flyers is that in general, when they're in the defensive zone, they are a complete mess. They're often out of position or they're in some sort of mad scramble. The fact that they're so disorganized allows the opposition to set themselves up and create a high percentage scoring chance out of the situation. You don't need a lot of shots to create scoring chances when the team is giving up space and positioning. It's horrible watching how poor they play in the defensive zone. And Bryz certainly isn't helping right now, but it doesn't fall solely on him.

The team is failing because of three fundamental things - defensive awareness (when to transition to defense), defensive coverage (once again, when the team is in their end, it's a mad panic and they look completely lost) and limiting scoring chances (this is a team that regularly gives up 12 to 15 high percentage scoring plays a game - that's far too many for any team to surrender and expect their goaltender to bail them out).

Bryz is the least of our concerns. Put any goaltender back behind the Flyers and .903 save percentage would be considered a win.
Based on this:

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/shot...nd-shot-totals

Scoring chances are tied strongly to shot diferential, and shot quality is fairly minor in comparison.

Edit: Also, I disagree about any goalie suffering if plugged in here. THere are goaltenders who are on teams which are easily worse on defense than Philly, and they are putting up better numbers. Dubnyk, Varlamov, and Holtby (Barely) all come to mind. Miller as well...the Buffalo games I've watched, he and Vanek are basically the team.

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03-07-2013, 04:12 PM
  #429
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okay... So why Stana is not in the NHL ??
I don't know, maybe he is comfortable playing in Russia

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03-07-2013, 04:16 PM
  #430
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I don't know, maybe he is comfortable playing in Russia
That and some players play better on the wider rinks opposed to the NHL sized rinks.

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03-07-2013, 04:20 PM
  #431
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I don't think Stana liked being so far from home, and having to work his way up through the minor leagues. I don't recall specifically, though.

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03-07-2013, 04:53 PM
  #432
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Looking through a news archive Stana would have been playing for the Caps if it wasn't for the 04/05 lockout. Instead he signed with Södertälje and has stayed in Europe since then.

Anyway, I shall no longer drift off topic.

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03-07-2013, 05:03 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Here's where we are ranked amongst the league in defensive stats as a team:

Shots Against- 8th 27.4
Shots Blocked- 3rd 370
Penalty Kill- 8th 84.0%

How much better do you want the defense to be?
and bryzgalov leads the league in wins. means nothing. also your saying the defense is above average based off your stats there but what is your point? that still factors in our little 2 and 6 problem out of the gate. point is in reality nobody would really be on here wasting time arguing with bernie if it wasn't legitimate. it is. you posted "varlamov this and that" but you make saves that were decent (routine actually) into phenomenal saves by your description. "kane in all alone" uh with defenders back and right up his ass. he barely had a foot to work with. it was a straight shot with no move. that's the same kind of exaggeration bernie gets accused of. bryzgalov is a good goalie. his play is obviously making a lot of us happy and satisfied this year. but some people need a scapegoat. they need to put everything on 1 player. just getting old. he might be overpaid but get over it. over half our roster is way overpaid. who cares? "but the salary cap". what? who are we being deprived of from bryzgalov's contract. certainly wasn't gonna stop us from getting weber. we have problems but their not our goalie.

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03-07-2013, 05:17 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
your description. "kane in all alone" uh with defenders back and right up his ass. he barely had a foot to work with. it was a straight shot with no move.
Yes, Kane had no room to work with :
He only deked twice. He clearly had no time.

As far as the fact that the shot was straight with no movement, unless deflected, most shots are straight-ish. If we're going to start criticizing the quality of the shots (ie. how much they move, where they were aimed, etc.) I think I can discredit a ton of Bryzgalov's "great saves" too. I can remember several instances of people going wild for Bryz where in reality they were chest snipes by opponents. I haven't done that yet because I don't really think it's fair to the goalies, but if you'd like to go down that route, I'd be happy to pick apart every breakaway or odd-man save that Bryz has made and discredit the ones that hit Bryz squarely in the chest or are squeezed by Bryz's 5 hole. But honestly, I'd prefer not to go down that route.

The fact of the matter is, Varlamov had Patrick Kane coming in alone and he stopped him. Kane was obstructed a heck of a lot less than Rick Nash was (Nash was blatantly hooked by Timonen and still scored on Bryz), but Varlamov still stopped him. You can try to discredit that all you want, but those are the facts.

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03-07-2013, 05:18 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
and bryzgalov leads the league in wins. means nothing. also your saying the defense is above average based off your stats there but what is your point? that still factors in our little 2 and 6 problem out of the gate. point is in reality nobody would really be on here wasting time arguing with bernie if it wasn't legitimate. it is. you posted "varlamov this and that" but you make saves that were decent (routine actually) into phenomenal saves by your description. "kane in all alone" uh with defenders back and right up his ass. he barely had a foot to work with. it was a straight shot with no move. that's the same kind of exaggeration bernie gets accused of. bryzgalov is a good goalie. his play is obviously making a lot of us happy and satisfied this year. but some people need a scapegoat. they need to put everything on 1 player. just getting old. he might be overpaid but get over it. over half our roster is way overpaid. who cares? "but the salary cap". what? who are we being deprived of from bryzgalov's contract. certainly wasn't gonna stop us from getting weber. we have problems but their not our goalie.
No they don't mean everything. I was just trying to prove that defense hasn't been as bad as he would like to suggest. He blames everything on the defense. In his mind Bryz can do no wrong.

I never said anything about Varly that was him that posted some video and went on some rant about it.

Considering the salary cap is going down next year, it kind of is a problem. A player getting paid top 5 money for his position that's not living up to his contract is a problem. Especially for a team that operates closer to salary cap max. There's a reason why the Flyers are trying ship out the dead weights carrying big cap hits right now.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 03-07-2013 at 05:24 PM.
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03-07-2013, 05:26 PM
  #436
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So much fail in this thread from people who don't seem to understand that differences in shot quality are negligible over the course of an entire NHL season, or the fact that shot totals correlate highly to scoring chances which correlate highly to goal-scoring.

These misinformed people will no doubt continue to say that the fact that the Flyers defense is 8th best in terms of shots allowed per game means nothing, that our defense is an anomaly and is allowing much, much better scoring chances / shot quality than any other goalie in the entire NHL is facing, and that this team's struggles are therefore not Bryzgalov's fault in the least.

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03-07-2013, 05:36 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Yes, Kane had no room to work with :
He only deked twice. He clearly had no time.

As far as the fact that the shot was straight with no movement, unless deflected, most shots are straight-ish. If we're going to start criticizing the quality of the shots (ie. how much they move, where they were aimed, etc.) I think I can discredit a ton of Bryzgalov's "great saves" too. I can remember several instances of people going wild for Bryz where in reality they were chest snipes by opponents. I haven't done that yet because I don't really think it's fair to the goalies, but if you'd like to go down that route, I'd be happy to pick apart every breakaway or odd-man save that Bryz has made and discredit the ones that hit Bryz squarely in the chest or are squeezed by Bryz's 5 hole. But honestly, I'd prefer not to go down that route.

The fact of the matter is, Varlamov had Patrick Kane coming in alone and he stopped him. Kane was obstructed a heck of a lot less than Rick Nash was (Nash was blatantly hooked by Timonen and still scored on Bryz), but Varlamov still stopped him. You can try to discredit that all you want, but those are the facts.
you go ahead, you big flyers fan, you. but I'm not sure that'll mean anything considering you have problems distinguishing what a "deke" is. looked like slight puck control to me. also weird is your use of the word "alone". maybe its the angle tho. or i could be just straight up blind at this point. who knows?

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03-07-2013, 05:49 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I never said anything about Varly that was him that posted some video and went on some rant about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It is a high percentage shot but some goalies step up and stop it sometimes.
it's the same exact goal.
against COLO = 'It is a high percentage shot'
against Bryz = 'Here's his 2 gems'
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Here's his 2 gems last night
Callahan's from last night.
kinda says it all. when our goalie lets it in, its weak, when another goalie does, it's a tough save

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03-07-2013, 06:01 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post

you go ahead, you big flyers fan, you. but I'm not sure that'll mean anything considering you have problems distinguishing what a "deke" is. looked like slight puck control to me. also weird is your use of the word "alone". maybe its the angle tho. or i could be just straight up blind at this point. who knows?
sigh.

This is Patrick Kane right before he unleashes a shot on Varly on the play in question:

This is Rick Nash right before he unleashes a shot on Bryzgalov on the play in question:

Notice that Kane is both a) in a better scoring position AND b) further ahead of the defender than Nash is.

Yet still, Bryz allows the Nash shot to go in while Varly stops Kane.

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03-07-2013, 06:02 PM
  #440
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Varly's save percentage on a team that is definitely worse on defense indicates he's been better at stopping shots than Bryzgalov. The fact that Bryzgalov struggles so mightily in those situations is a major reason his stats are dropping to .900

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03-07-2013, 06:10 PM
  #441
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this team's struggles are therefore not Bryzgalov's fault in the least.
he's been at fault recently. ive criticized him plenty. he was able to bail out the team earlier on, despite their defensive woes. recently, not as much & i said he needs to be better.

and that hes the least of my worries, with overall team effort & hustle for 60 minutes being a bigger concern, along with Team D being the other

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03-07-2013, 07:18 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
sigh.

This is Patrick Kane right before he unleashes a shot on Varly on the play in question:

This is Rick Nash right before he unleashes a shot on Bryzgalov on the play in question:

Notice that Kane is both a) in a better scoring position AND b) further ahead of the defender than Nash is.

Yet still, Bryz allows the Nash shot to go in while Varly stops Kane.
i'm humoring this. id know why but....i guess your saying the kane shot was harder to stop than the nash shot because of the distance to the net? cause if your really talking about a player being alone rick nash looks to be completely 100 percent unimpeded whereas kane looks to be closed in on and i believe what they call angled off the play. sure he was still in a good position near the net but it wasn't a breakaway or something. he got some lame shot off a second after receiving the pass whereas rick nash had control all the way up the wing and had a way better look from the circle. why we're comparing these two goals i have no idea tho. same vicinity, sort of? their not comparable to me. i also wanna say i thought bryzgalov should've saved that. ha. so all this for nothing. i get it tho varlamov is god. we should have him instead of bryzgalov.

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03-07-2013, 07:26 PM
  #443
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i'm humoring this. id know why but....i guess your saying the kane shot was harder to stop than the nash shot because of the distance to the net? cause if your really talking about a player being alone rick nash looks to be completely 100 percent unimpeded whereas kane looks to be closed in on and i believe what they call angled off the play. sure he was still in a good position near the net but it wasn't a breakaway or something. he got some lame shot off a second after receiving the pass whereas rick nash had control all the way up the wing and had a way better look from the circle. why we're comparing these two goals i have no idea tho. same vicinity, sort of? their not comparable to me. i also wanna say i thought bryzgalov should've saved that. ha. so all this for nothing. i get it tho varlamov is god. we should have him instead of bryzgalov.
You and I agree then; both shots should've been stopped, but only one was.

My point isn't that Varlamov is some kind of god, he's a decent goalie playing on a worse team with worse defense, he's making less $$$, and he's playing better.

That's all. Not that he's a god cause he's not. But neither is Bryz. Bryz isn't playing up to his cap hit. He's not one of the worst goalies in the NHL, but we could use that money a lot more productively, which is why at this point I'm hoping for a buyout. I'm still rooting for Bryz every game he's out there, but unless something drastically changes I'd like to see a buyout. Expensive free agent goalies just aren't the way to go when it comes to winning a cup.

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03-07-2013, 08:15 PM
  #444
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You and I agree then; both shots should've been stopped, but only one was.

My point isn't that Varlamov is some kind of god, he's a decent goalie playing on a worse team with worse defense, he's making less $$$, and he's playing better.

That's all. Not that he's a god cause he's not. But neither is Bryz. Bryz isn't playing up to his cap hit. He's not one of the worst goalies in the NHL, but we could use that money a lot more productively, which is why at this point I'm hoping for a buyout. I'm still rooting for Bryz every game he's out there, but unless something drastically changes I'd like to see a buyout. Expensive free agent goalies just aren't the way to go when it comes to winning a cup.
well i wouldn't worry too much about it cause its gonna happen. but i like him as our goalie. we've been floundering defensively since pronger went down. i just hope whoever we get, he's at a higher level than the d level losers we've been going with since the 90's. say what you want about bryzgalov but he's the best goalie we've had since hextall. cechamanek's numbers were good but he played during the clutch and grab days.

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03-07-2013, 09:01 PM
  #445
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Bob is considerably better than Bryz

Bobrovsky - .913 SV%, 2.46 GAA
vs
Bryzgalov - .899 SV%, 2.79 GAA

This is with Bobrovsky playing for the worst team in the league. Bryzgalov doesn't battle for the puck most games, and lets in brutal, deflating goals.

If this continues, do the Flyers consider a compliance buyout? Or is that not economically feasible.

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03-07-2013, 09:02 PM
  #446
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what's up Norm MacDonald?

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03-07-2013, 09:03 PM
  #447
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What was Bob's save percentage when on the Flyers? Because this is not a goalie friendly system. Like I said before, Bryz needs to have a lot of confidence for him to be on the top of his game. In a system like this he will never have full confidence.

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03-07-2013, 09:05 PM
  #448
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What was Bob's save percentage when on the Flyers? Because this is not a goalie friendly system. Like I said before, Bryz needs to have a lot of confidence for him to be on the top of his game. In a system like this he will never have full confidence.
CLB isnt really a defensive friendly system either....

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03-07-2013, 09:07 PM
  #449
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What was Bob's save percentage when on the Flyers? Because this is not a goalie friendly system. Like I said before, Bryz needs to have a lot of confidence for him to be on the top of his game. In a system like this he will never have full confidence.
He had a crappy SV% in his sophomore season. But yeah, it's fitting for the Flyers to give up on a player after his second season in the league.

Also Columbus is really crappy team, so the argument that Bob's stats are inflated doesn't really work.

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03-07-2013, 09:07 PM
  #450
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What was Bob's save percentage when on the Flyers? Because this is not a goalie friendly system. Like I said before, Bryz needs to have a lot of confidence for him to be on the top of his game. In a system like this he will never have full confidence.
Columbus is even less goalie friendly; see Steve Mason the last 3 years. Bobrovsky is absolutely outplaying Bryz and Bob is exactly the type of athletic goalie a team like us needed. Oh well though, that ship has sailed.

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