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Hockey without fighting.

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Old
03-07-2013, 08:18 PM
  #476
sandysan
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I bet the players were resistant to helmets too. Wouldn't you say that's a positive evolution in the game?
The pa signed off on allowing their membership to make the decision themselves. I'd certainly wear one but if someone decided not to, like macT, I'm good with that.

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03-07-2013, 08:21 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
What number do you think is higher; fans the league would gain without fighting vs. fans the league would lose without fighting?

I don't think the NHL is in a position to "raise the middle finger" to any potential fans.
There's no evidence that removing fighting will bring in new fans. None.

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03-07-2013, 08:23 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
The pa signed off on allowing their membership to make the decision themselves. I'd certainly wear one but if someone decided not to, like macT, I'm good with that.
What? Helmets are mandatory.

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03-07-2013, 08:34 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
What? Helmets are mandatory.
They were grandfathered in and, believe it or not, there was a time when some players wore them some did not.

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03-07-2013, 08:40 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
They were grandfathered in and, believe it or not, there was a time when some players wore them some did not.
I'm aware. Which shows players resistance to it. Which was my point.

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03-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #481
sandysan
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I'm aware. Which shows players resistance to it. Which was my point.
Your point is what that its surprising that the entire league didn't switch to helmets on masse? Bobby orr played no helmet, so did however. If they played today they would wear them but using what we know know and holding it against them is nonsensical.

If that's your point, it would help if it were clearer. I'm not sure what the introduction of helmets has to do with fights.

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03-08-2013, 07:01 AM
  #482
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Globe: Majority of Canadians Want Ban on Fighting


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle9496814/

Quote:
This week, The Globe and Mail reported on the first part of the survey – a vast majority of Canadians want bodychecking out of peewee hockey – and today the results are in on the public attitude toward fighting:

Three-quarters of Canadians (78 per cent) – and an identical percentage of fans of the game – want to see fights banned in all junior hockey;

Two-thirds of Canadians – fans as well as the general public – believe fighting should also be banned at the professional level;

Only 16 per cent of the country favours allowing fights at the junior levels;

One-quarter of Canadians (27 per cent) oppose eliminating fights at the professional level, while 5 per cent aren’t sure what to do;

While 95 per cent of fans believe skating is an “essential component” of the game, and 93 per cent believe shooting is important, a minuscule 7 per cent say the ability to engage in on-ice fights is important.

In other words, hockey’s cartoon can go.

The online survey was conducted between Feb. 22 and 26. It involved 1,013 Canadian adults who are Angus Reid Forum panelists and an additional smaller sample of 502 self-described hockey fans. According to the pollster, the margin of error in such a survey would be plus or minus 3.1 per cent from the larger sample of Canadian adults, and plus or minus 4.5 per cent for the smaller sample.

Respondents were asked if they would support a system in place in college and university hockey, where rules call for automatic ejection and suspension for those players engaging in fisticuffs.

By large majorities, they agreed there should be rules to bring an end, as much as possible, to fighting in hockey.

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03-08-2013, 07:14 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Globe: Majority of Canadians Want Ban on Fighting


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle9496814/
Lol 73% of people want fighting banned in the NHL? That survey isn't skewed at all.

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03-08-2013, 07:30 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Globe: Majority of Canadians Want Ban on Fighting


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle9496814/
The general population doesn't pay the bills. I'm sure soccer moms don't like fights, but if they banned fighting the soccer moms would not support the league any more than they do now.

If I remember right the g&m was fighting in general, not just in the NHL. I don't know anyone who advocates fighting in atom and pee-wee.

Right now in a gate driven league, the Canadian teams are generally doing fine. Why would they risk the sure thing they have now for the potential fans that would not increase the bottom line ? I'm with Chris nilan on this one, if they banned it and it alienated the current fan base and the owners find that the anti fighting potential fans are a fickle bunch, how in the hell could they reinstate it?

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03-08-2013, 07:31 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Oobz View Post
Lol 73% of people want fighting banned in the NHL? That survey isn't skewed at all.
I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't actually know what skewed/biased means from a technical statistical standpoint.

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03-08-2013, 07:34 AM
  #486
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Fighting= yes
Babysitting=no

Its about the time players should fight their own battles, don't care if they are "small", "skill", "clean" or whatever...

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03-08-2013, 07:37 AM
  #487
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I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't actually know what skewed/biased means from a technical statistical standpoint.
No, enlighten me.

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03-08-2013, 07:44 AM
  #488
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I'm fine with fighting..

Heck, as a zebra I love it in games however,

It's when the Under 12's start punching players after the whistle because they "do it in Raiders" (Thats the mens team over here)

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03-08-2013, 07:48 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Oobz View Post
No, enlighten me.
It was done by professional polling organization using perfectly good random sampling methods, and the reported the associated margins of error. There's nothing at all presented for you to be able to claim that it's skewed in any way.

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03-08-2013, 07:56 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't actually know what skewed/biased means from a technical statistical standpoint.
I suspect ( as its been done before) that if you conducted this poll inside an arena or in sports bar the answer would be significantly different. The NHL is not a representive democracy, its a business. If people who will never spend a dime on the NHL want to lecture the NHL on how it should be run, the NHL should thank them for their opinion and send them on their way.

Despiteback to back lockouts, demand ( measured by revenues) continues to increase, in a league that has fights, and fights are actually up in the shortened season.

Another thing is there is certainly an element of nationalism in this that I don't understand. There are tons of rights that the g&m completely ignores but the one time a guy gets KTFO between the leafs and the sens, its somehow indicative of some underlying problem. The reason its on the media has zero to do with concern for player safety, it makes the rounds for one reason, because its graphic.

A guy gets paralyzed on an iffy hit is Europe and the g&m don't say peep. In 2011 Aaron ashram knocks out beagle in much the same way and the big stink was whether ashram went too far with the go to sleep pantomime.

I'm beginning to believe that if a player acted in a far more irresponsible way that was not as visually graphic but far more injurious, the g&m would ignore it like they do most fights. People don't like fights not because of concern for player safety but for one reason and one reason only, because they are graphic and can be used to inflame people who wouldn't know a wrist shot from a wrist watch.

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03-08-2013, 07:56 AM
  #491
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you know an article is pushing an agenda when at every turn it avoids using the term "respondents" when citing survey results, and instead uses things like "the majority of Canadians". That right there makes the survey methods suspect.

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03-08-2013, 08:00 AM
  #492
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I just find it hard to believe because this article is saying 2/3 of people including hockey fans also want fighting banned in the NHL. Next time I'm at a game and a fight breaks out I'll have to look around and see if only 1/3 of the crowd is cheering on.

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03-08-2013, 08:03 AM
  #493
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I suspect ( as its been done before) that if you conducted this poll inside an arena or in sports bar the answer would be significantly different.
Which no respectable polling organization would actually do, because that's a convenience sample and is utterly worthless from a statistical perspective. The amount of bias introduced by using such a non-random sampling method is so large it overwhelms any actual results from the data; the associated margin of error from such a methodological error is enormous.

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03-08-2013, 08:08 AM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Which no respectable polling organization would actually do, because that's a convenience sample and is utterly worthless from a statistical perspective. The amount of bias introduced by using such a non-random sampling method is so large it overwhelms any actual results from the data; the associated margin of error from such a methodological error is enormous.
Ok, they polled 1000 random people and got results. But 2/3 of hockey fans want fighting banned at the professional level? Do only bloody thirsty savages pay tickets to hockey games?

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03-08-2013, 08:09 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I suspect ( as its been done before) that if you conducted this poll inside an arena or in sports bar the answer would be significantly different. The NHL is not a representive democracy, its a business. If people who will never spend a dime on the NHL want to lecture the NHL on how it should be run, the NHL should thank them for their opinion and send them on their way.

Despiteback to back lockouts, demand ( measured by revenues) continues to increase, in a league that has fights, and fights are actually up in the shortened season.

Another thing is there is certainly an element of nationalism in this that I don't understand. There are tons of rights that the g&m completely ignores but the one time a guy gets KTFO between the leafs and the sens, its somehow indicative of some underlying problem. The reason its on the media has zero to do with concern for player safety, it makes the rounds for one reason, because its graphic.

A guy gets paralyzed on an iffy hit is Europe and the g&m don't say peep. In 2011 Aaron ashram knocks out beagle in much the same way and the big stink was whether ashram went too far with the go to sleep pantomime.

I'm beginning to believe that if a player acted in a far more irresponsible way that was not as visually graphic but far more injurious, the g&m would ignore it like they do most fights. People don't like fights not because of concern for player safety but for one reason and one reason only, because they are graphic and can be used to inflame people who wouldn't know a wrist shot from a wrist watch.
I never spend a dime on dog-fighting. Guess I shouldn't voice my opinion on it.

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03-08-2013, 08:12 AM
  #496
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Which no respectable polling organization would actually do, because that's a convenience sample and is utterly worthless from a statistical perspective. The amount of bias introduced by using such a non-random sampling method is so large it overwhelms any actual results from the data; the associated margin of error from such a methodological error is enormous.
The NHL doesn't care what the majority of Canadians think, they care what their customers think. This isn't to set public policy, if the NHL can, as a business, make more money catering to the minority of the population who are rabid fans that the majority who are fickle, that's their prerogative.

I'm sure if you polled average Canadians about the ufc or bellator, the results would be far more unfavorable. That does not prevent the ufc from raking it in hand over fist. No business cares if there product appeals to a majority, they care whether there is a market for their product. For the NHL, there is demand and increasing demand for a product that has fights.

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03-08-2013, 08:14 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by SoTzuMe View Post
I never spend a dime on dog-fighting. Guess I shouldn't voice my opinion on it.
Dog fighting is illegal. Hockey fights are not. But nice try.

I'm just wondering if your anti fighting crusade extends equally to boxing and MMA. If not why not?

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03-08-2013, 08:31 AM
  #498
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
On 99.99% of days policemen don't fire their guns, therefore guns aren't an integral part of policing and should be eliminated.

Anyone want to poke holes in the that argument?
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
care to explain why ?
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
About the response I expected from the geniuses in this thread.
Seriously??? You don't see why this is an absolutely awful argument?

A policeman's job is to enforce the law. There are situations in which a policeman must use a firearm to enforce the law, which is why they're empowered to use guns.

In hockey, a player's job is to help his team win by scoring more goals than the other team. Fighting does not directly impact or align with that goal. It's unnecessary.

There's a sense of entitlement among players in which they feel they're empowered to enforce the cultural "code" of the game. That's where people are divided. Some people think that removing fighting compromises the culture of the game, while others think that hockey's culture could be enhanced by removing something that's irrelevant to the game's primary objective. I fall into the latter group.

The poll shown above speaks more to the social question of excess violence in mainstream entertainment, which is another issue altogether (and where hockey is an easy target, but not the only perpetrator).

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03-08-2013, 08:36 AM
  #499
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Dog fighting is illegal. Hockey fights are not. But nice try.

I'm just wondering if your anti fighting crusade extends equally to boxing and MMA. If not why not?
If some misguided government made fighting in hockey illegal, would it change your opinion on it? I'd guess not. That's not my point. My point is that people are entitled to an opinion on fights in hockey even if they don't support the game in any way. It's on their TVs, so they have a right to speak out about it, and the NHL has an responsibility to justify the way it's run (whether they change anything or not).

I don't support boxing or MMA in any way. I would be completely fine with the both sports ceasing to exist.


Last edited by SoTzuMe: 03-08-2013 at 08:47 AM.
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03-08-2013, 08:48 AM
  #500
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Originally Posted by SoTzuMe View Post
If some misguided government made fighting in hockey illegal, would it change your opinion of it? I'd guess not. That's not my point. My point is that people are entitled to an opinion on fights in hockey even if they don't support the game in any way. It's on their TVs, so they have a right to speak out about it, and the NHL has an responsibility to justify the way it's run (whether they change anything or not).

I don't support boxing or MMA in any way. I would be completely fine with the both sports ceasing to exist.
Absolutely agreed, especially given the extra coverage a violent fight gets. However, it is then important to make a distinction between qualified and ignorant opinions. A person who actively takes in hockey and has formed an opinion on fighting in hockey through this observation possesses - in my mind - a more valuable opinion in terms of the discourse (regardless of whether they support or oppose it).

We are taught that all opinions are equal by some misguided egalitarians, but I wouldn't give a **** what my senile great aunt has to say about fighting in a sport she has never seen.


Last edited by RollTheBones109: 03-08-2013 at 08:48 AM. Reason: for clarity's sake
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