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Hockey without fighting.

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Old
03-08-2013, 08:54 AM
  #501
SoTzuMe
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
Absolutely agreed, especially given the extra coverage a violent fight gets. However, it is then important to make a distinction between qualified and ignorant opinions. A person who actively takes in hockey and has formed an opinion on fighting in hockey through this observation possesses - in my mind - a more valuable opinion in terms of the discourse (whether they support or oppose it).

We are taught that all opinions are equal by some misguided egalitarians, but I wouldn't give a **** what my senile great aunt has to say about fighting in a sport she has never seen.
That's why there are really two ongoing discussions in my mind:
  1. The role fighting plays in the culture of the game. Is it necessary?
  2. Violence in mainstream media. What's the impact? Where do we draw the line?
IMO, 1) Fighting is unnecessary, and I think hockey's culture would be enhanced with its removal; 2) We should be doing what we can to reduce violence in mainstream media, and hockey is not even close to the whole story here.

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03-08-2013, 08:57 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by SoTzuMe View Post
Seriously??? You don't see why this is an absolutely awful argument?

A policeman's job is to enforce the law. There are situations in which a policeman must use a firearm to enforce the law, which is why they're empowered to use guns.

In hockey, a player's job is to help his team win by scoring more goals than the other team. Fighting does not directly impact or align with that goal. It's unnecessary.
You know who disagrees with you ? Every player who has ever laced them up, every GM and coach.

If not having someone who can fight is of an advantage, teams would do it. The teams are competeing with each other, they will do anything to gain ad advantage over other clubs. this week alone, Sesito, McGrattan and Brown were claimed off of the waiver wire by other teams. I'm pretty sure it's not for their scoring.

You can spend all the time in the world imagining what type of team you would assemble if you were a GM. but you are not, and the GM's ( guys who know more about hockey and the game than 99.999% of the general population) still see value in having guys that can fight.

I'm a fan of a team that tried to go no fighters, we got killed, pushed around and all of the talent in the world would have been useless. Reducing the multifaceted game to " score more goals than the opponent" is overly-simplified. There are literally hundreds of things that players do that put their team in a better position to win that don't show up on the score board. Fighting is one of them, I'm sorry you don't see or understand it but the players coaches GM and people who pay to go see the games most certainly do.

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03-08-2013, 08:59 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by SoTzuMe View Post
That's why there are really two ongoing discussions in my mind:
  1. The role fighting plays in the culture of the game. Is it necessary?
  2. Violence in mainstream media. What's the impact? Where do we draw the line?
IMO, 1) Fighting is unnecessary, and I think hockey's culture would be enhanced with its removal; 2) We should be doing what we can to reduce violence in mainstream media, and hockey is not even close to the whole story here.
As far as number 1 goes, I'm not sure I agree with you, but this topic has more than laid out arguments for each side. I suppose that, truthfully, I wouldn't be upset to see fighting go, but I certainly wouldn't actively wish it away.

And number 2, I agree insofar as you are referring to 'real violence' for violence's sake. I've never understood the appeal of boxing, MMA, etc. However, there is certainly a place for things like Pulp Fiction, Natural Born Killers, and so on, I would claim. As you said, a bigger issue than we've got time for here.

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03-08-2013, 09:01 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
You know who disagrees with you ? Every player who has ever laced them up, every GM and coach.

If not having someone who can fight is of an advantage, teams would do it. The teams are competeing with each other, they will do anything to gain ad advantage over other clubs. this week alone, Sesito, McGrattan and Brown were claimed off of the waiver wire by other teams. I'm pretty sure it's not for their scoring.

You can spend all the time in the world imagining what type of team you would assemble if you were a GM. but you are not, and the GM's ( guys who know more about hockey and the game than 99.999% of the general population) still see value in having guys that can fight.

I'm a fan of a team that tried to go no fighters, we got killed, pushed around and all of the talent in the world would have been useless. Reducing the multifaceted game to " score more goals than the opponent" is overly-simplified. There are literally hundreds of things that players do that put their team in a better position to win that don't show up on the score board. Fighting is one of them, I'm sorry you don't see or understand it but the players coaches GM and people who pay to go see the games most certainly do.
As opposed to saying "You don't get it, but other people do", would you elaborate on how fighting directly helps a team score more goals than the other team? I understand why fights happen, but I don't see them as necessary to the primary objective of the game.

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03-08-2013, 09:13 AM
  #505
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If some misguided government made fighting in hockey illegal, would it change your opinion on it? I'd guess not. That's not my point. My point is that people are entitled to an opinion on fights in hockey even if they don't support the game in any way. It's on their TVs, so they have a right to speak out about it, and the NHL has an responsibility to justify the way it's run (whether they change anything or not).

I don't support boxing or MMA in any way. I would be completely fine with the both sports ceasing to exist.
I'm a law abiding citizen, if the governemnt made hockey fights illegal, i'd either accept it or start watching the start up league that likely result beyond the governments jurisdiction because its clear that the deman is there

What you are asking is akin to if the local gendarmes decided to start giving speeding tickets to drivers on the nascar oval. its nonsense.

And you are completely missing the point. The NHL is not your government, they are a private business. If your governemnt adopts a policy you have every right ( and I would say the responsibility) to let them know of your displeasure because the governement is supposed to both represent and be beholden to you. The NHL is not, they are beholden to their stakeholders and their fans.

I get that a lot of fans have a hard time separating the cultural aspect of hockey from the economic aspect of the game. But if you polled the average fan whether there should have been a lockout last year, my guess is almost everyone would have said no. That did not accelerate the new CBA because the NHL answer to someone other than " the average canadian"

If a business depended on favorable opinion by a majority of respondants then there goes strip clubs, every single art gallery, comic-con, all of the trash on TV including the kardashians and amish mafia, every single woman's sporting league, MLS etc. Because you don't like something doesnt mean that is has to change to better align with your hopes and values.

if you are an adult and you see something on tv that you dont like, unless your thumbs are broken change the channel.

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03-08-2013, 09:24 AM
  #506
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As opposed to saying "You don't get it, but other people do", would you elaborate on how fighting directly helps a team score more goals than the other team? I understand why fights happen, but I don't see them as necessary to the primary objective of the game.
Here is a quote from Claude Julien, a guy who is getting paid to coach the bruins, in response to a star ( Chara) going after an opponent ( Emelin) whom chara felt took liberties against a youn star teamate of chara's ( Seguin).

“What Zdeno Chara did yesterday, I support 100 percent,” said Julien. “Besides that 17 minutes of penalties he got, what he did is going to go a long way for our hockey club. Especially for Tyler Seguin. Tyler’s a good player. He needs to know everybody’s got his back. Zdeno showed that yesterday. That will allow Tyler to become a better player. When you know people have your back, you can play at ease. That thing that Zdeno did is certainly going to help Tyler be comfortable.”

This took me literally one second to find. If you dont think that fights are beneficial, yet the overwhelming majority of players do NOT want fighting to be removed, instead of assuming that you are right and the collective will of the people who will face the DIRECT CONSEQUENCES of this choice is somehow misplaced, you might want to look into why the players believe this. It's not that hard to do.

My guess is that you wont because ( as is the case for many of your brethern) it doesn't matter what the players think and you are never going to change your mind irrespective of what evidence is presented to you, because you are convinced you know what is "best" for you and for everybody else. I dont think you could get 96% of people to have the same opinion on " slapping your mama, pro or con?" and when the evidence that the overwhelming majority of players gms coaches and people who go to the games is presented its summarily ignored becuase people say "watching two men fight makes me feel icky inside so it must be bad".

I can say with certainty that even if I did not like fights, if the players wanted them I'd defer to their opinion. when did society become so self-enamoured that people beleive that their entire existance has to be to their liking and if its not they get to complain about it and expect change ?

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03-08-2013, 09:29 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'm a law abiding citizen, if the governemnt made hockey fights illegal, i'd either accept it or start watching the start up league that likely result beyond the governments jurisdiction because its clear that the deman is there

What you are asking is akin to if the local gendarmes decided to start giving speeding tickets to drivers on the nascar oval. its nonsense.

And you are completely missing the point. The NHL is not your government, they are a private business. If your governemnt adopts a policy you have every right ( and I would say the responsibility) to let them know of your displeasure because the governement is supposed to both represent and be beholden to you. The NHL is not, they are beholden to their stakeholders and their fans.

I get that a lot of fans have a hard time separating the cultural aspect of hockey from the economic aspect of the game. But if you polled the average fan whether there should have been a lockout last year, my guess is almost everyone would have said no. That did not accelerate the new CBA because the NHL answer to someone other than " the average canadian"

If a business depended on favorable opinion by a majority of respondants then there goes strip clubs, every single art gallery, comic-con, all of the trash on TV including the kardashians and amish mafia, every single woman's sporting league, MLS etc. Because you don't like something doesnt mean that is has to change to better align with your hopes and values.

if you are an adult and you see something on tv that you dont like, unless your thumbs are broken change the channel.
You can read my post again. I never said that the league has a responsibility to change nor that businesses/organizations depend or should depend on favourable opinion. You're projecting those other things onto me.

People have the right to speak up about fighting in the game, whether they are a fan or not. The league has a social responsibility like any other business to understand how it affects society at large and justify the way it's run.

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03-08-2013, 09:41 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by SoTzuMe View Post
You can read my post again. I never said that the league has a responsibility to change nor that businesses/organizations depend or should depend on favourable opinion. You're projecting those other things onto me.

People have the right to speak up about fighting in the game, whether they are a fan or not. The league has a social responsibility like any other business to understand how it affects society at large and justify the way it's run.
and the league has every right to consider you the equivalent of the " senile old aunt" referenced in a previous post.

The purpose of business is to make money within the confines of the law, if you are basing your social mores on what occurs in the business world you are going to be sorely dissapointed.

again the league is NOT BEHOLDEN TO YOU, you dont get to tell private businesses how they have to conduct business so that it aligns with your personal view. You have one say, dont support them. If you think the league should have a social responsibility that it is not living up to, dont support it. how simple is that ?

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03-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Here is a quote from Claude Julien, a guy who is getting paid to coach the bruins, in response to a star ( Chara) going after an opponent ( Emelin) whom chara felt took liberties against a youn star teamate of chara's ( Seguin).

“What Zdeno Chara did yesterday, I support 100 percent,” said Julien. “Besides that 17 minutes of penalties he got, what he did is going to go a long way for our hockey club. Especially for Tyler Seguin. Tyler’s a good player. He needs to know everybody’s got his back. Zdeno showed that yesterday. That will allow Tyler to become a better player. When you know people have your back, you can play at ease. That thing that Zdeno did is certainly going to help Tyler be comfortable.”

This took me literally one second to find. If you dont think that fights are beneficial, yet the overwhelming majority of players do NOT want fighting to be removed, instead of assuming that you are right and the collective will of the people who will face the DIRECT CONSEQUENCES of this choice is somehow misplaced, you might want to look into why the players believe this. It's not that hard to do.

My guess is that you wont because ( as is the case for many of your brethern) it doesn't matter what the players think and you are never going to change your mind irrespective of what evidence is presented to you, because you are convinced you know what is "best" for you and for everybody else. I dont think you could get 96% of people to have the same opinion on " slapping your mama, pro or con?" and when the evidence that the overwhelming majority of players gms coaches and people who go to the games is presented its summarily ignored becuase people say "watching two men fight makes me feel icky inside so it must be bad".

I can say with certainty that even if I did not like fights, if the players wanted them I'd defer to their opinion. when did society become so self-enamoured that people beleive that their entire existance has to be to their liking and if its not they get to complain about it and expect change ?
First off, please stop misrepresenting my arguments. My position from a hockey standpoint is simple. The game's culture stands to benefit from the removal of fighting. The majority of your post is just trashing the people who have a different opinion than you. I'm not going to address it any further than that. If you want to keep insulting people, I'm going to ignore your posts from now on.

As much as I think Claude Julien is a terrible hypocrite, I think he (and you) bring up a valid point. However, I think it's possible to make changes to the game where Tyler Seguin can "play at ease" without the need for Zdeno Chara to step in and get himself thrown out of the game. I think the game would benefit from having A) Harsher and more immediate punishments for plays like Emelin's and B) Having Chara remain in the game (he's a great player).

As for the majority of players and GMs not wanting a ban on fighting: That does not mean everyone who votes "no" on a ban thinks fighting is good for the game. For example, big argument that I see is that fighting prevents attacks/injuries to star players and there is currently no system in place to adequately protect against that. I agree; it's a huge issue. I would prefer stricter supplemental discipline and active measures to improve in-game officiating in order to lessen the players' feeling that they need to police themselves. Other people think getting rid of the instigator is the solution. I don't think fighting solves this problem. It's a vengeful measure, not a preventative one.

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03-08-2013, 10:06 AM
  #510
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. I agree; it's a huge issue. I would prefer stricter supplemental discipline and active measures to improve in-game officiating rather to lessen the players' feeling that they need to police themselves.
hasnt worked, doesnt work, will never work.

I'm not attacking you, you asked me how fighting helped teams win and I posted a quote from a coach who explained EXACTLY how it helps the bruins. How is that a personal attack ?

If people were prevented from asserting that they had deeper insights into the working of the game than the players coaches and GM's ( a position I consider indefensible if not delusional) then the majority of the anti-fighting arguments go away.

If the people who opposed fighting really wanted to influence the NHL what they should do is organize a protest. Every time a fight breaks out on the ice, get the anti-fighting fans in the stands to turn their backs. if you want to really change things, put some skin in the game. Then we can see how many fans dont like the rough stuff, I would LOVE this to happen because one of two things will result

1) more people will turn than I had anticipated which means that the anti-fighting crowd actually does have significant numbers and the nhl might want to listen to their concerns, and I'll revise my position

2) no one turns around and the canard that is oft repeated that the anti-fighting crowd represents a significant proportion of hockey fans ( not the general population) dies a dishonorable death.

its win win, but it aint gonna happen and I suspect you know why.

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03-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #511
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These guys are getting too big, and too strong to allow this to continue. Makes me sick seeing a guy hit the ice face first after getting ktfo. I love hockey fights as much as the next guy, but that wasn't a hockey fight.
Yes that was a hockey fight. They we hockey players, wearing hockey equipment, on a hockey rink, in the middle of a hockey game.

If you engage in a fight, you are taking a risk of being knocked out. Ad it is VERY rare, that a fight ends like this.

Oh and OP, hockey does not allow fighting. If it did there would be no penalty, but instead you get a 5 minute major.

Injuries hapen, hockey is dangerous, lets get over the protect everyone from everything complex and let the men play their game.

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03-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #512
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hasnt worked, doesnt work, will never work.

I'm not attacking you, you asked me how fighting helped teams win and I posted a quote from a coach who explained EXACTLY how it helps the bruins. How is that a personal attack ?

If people were prevented from asserting that they had deeper insights into the working of the game than the players coaches and GM's ( a position I consider indefensible if not delusional) then the majority of the anti-fighting arguments go away.

If the people who opposed fighting really wanted to influence the NHL what they should do is organize a protest. Every time a fight breaks out on the ice, get the anti-fighting fans in the stands to turn their backs. if you want to really change things, put some skin in the game. Then we can see how many fans dont like the rough stuff, I would LOVE this to happen because one of two things will result

1) more people will turn than I had anticipated which means that the anti-fighting crowd actually does have significant numbers and the nhl might want to listen to their concerns, and I'll revise my position

2) no one turns around and the canard that is oft repeated that the anti-fighting crowd represents a significant proportion of hockey fans ( not the general population) dies a dishonorable death.

its win win, but it aint gonna happen and I suspect you know why.
Hasn't worked because the rules aren't strict enough (EDIT: I meant to say "supplemental discipline isn't strict enough") and officials aren't given the tools they need to do the job properly.

Reasons why a protest at the rink won't work:

A) Self-selection: Fans at the rink are likelier to be pro-fighting.
B) The arena's environment: People are there to have a good time; they won't pay money to protest. This is the same reason why there were no significant anti-lockout protests in the rink (the majority of fans were against that, weren't they?).

Reason why there wouldn't be a protest at all: Because this isn't an important enough issue to the majority of people who think fighting is unnecessary. I won't stop supporting hockey any time soon barring some ban on fighting, but I think the game stands to benefit from banning it. Hardly the reason to picket the NHL front office.


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03-08-2013, 10:26 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by RollTheBones109 View Post
As far as number 1 goes, I'm not sure I agree with you, but this topic has more than laid out arguments for each side. I suppose that, truthfully, I wouldn't be upset to see fighting go, but I certainly wouldn't actively wish it away.

And number 2, I agree insofar as you are referring to 'real violence' for violence's sake. I've never understood the appeal of boxing, MMA, etc. However, there is certainly a place for things like Pulp Fiction, Natural Born Killers, and so on, I would claim. As you said, a bigger issue than we've got time for here.
Thanks for the reply. I knew it was possible to disagree and not despise each other!

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03-08-2013, 10:56 AM
  #514
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Hasn't worked because the rules aren't strict enough and officials aren't given the tools they need to do the job properly.

Reasons why a protest at the rink won't work:

A) Self-selection: Fans at the rink are likelier to be pro-fighting.
B) The arena's environment: People are there to have a good time; they won't pay money to protest. This is the same reason why there were no significant anti-lockout protests in the rink (the majority of fans were against that, weren't they?).

Reason why there wouldn't be a protest at all: Because this isn't an important enough issue to the majority of people who think fighting is unnecessary. I won't stop supporting hockey any time soon barring some ban on fighting, but I think the game stands to benefit from banning it. Hardly the reason to picket the NHL front office.

so now you are going to from claiming that you have deeper insights of the game than the players, to saying you know how to do a better job than collie campbell and shannaban ? Is there any discipline you dont consider yourself a world authority ?

If fights are such an affront to your delicate sensibilities, turning around at the game is not an onerous request, is it ? You dont miss any of the game and I'm not advocating a boycott, you can still enjoy the 98% of the game and then the rest of the league will be able to see who and who is not being disingenuous. people voice their displeasure all the time, they boo the refs get them to boo the guys fighting. boo loud, encourage others to boo, scream
" think of the children!!!!" like maude flanders. do whatever you can to show how deep your opposition to fighting is, if you want things to change speak to power other than whining about it on the internet.

I agree it wont work, but not for any of the reasons you suggest and I'm pretty sure you know why it wont work.

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03-08-2013, 11:09 AM
  #515
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Doesn't matter if it only happens once a season. That kid now has a brain injury that could affect his quality of life from now on.
Yes because someone put a gun to his head and told him to fight. This is the same issue as visor's, they're big boys you don't need to baby sit them. Let's ban boxing and mma while we are at it. That poor guy Manny Pacquiao now has a 'brain injury' that could effect him for the rest of his life. If they don't like it they can become professional curler's. If you don't like it, you can watch something else.

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03-08-2013, 11:13 AM
  #516
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so now you are going to from claiming that you have deeper insights of the game than the players, to saying you know how to do a better job than collie campbell and shannaban ? Is there any discipline you dont consider yourself a world authority ?

If fights are such an affront to your delicate sensibilities, turning around at the game is not an onerous request, is it ? You dont miss any of the game and I'm not advocating a boycott, you can still enjoy the 98% of the game and then the rest of the league will be able to see who and who is not being disingenuous. people voice their displeasure all the time, they boo the refs get them to boo the guys fighting. boo loud, encourage others to boo, scream
" think of the children!!!!" like maude flanders. do whatever you can to show how deep your opposition to fighting is, if you want things to change speak to power other than whining about it on the internet.

I agree it wont work, but not for any of the reasons you suggest and I'm pretty sure you know why it wont work.
Thanks for not addressing any of the points in my post and misrepresenting my position again! Have a nice day.

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03-08-2013, 11:17 AM
  #517
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I only like fighting when they get mad at eachother.

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03-08-2013, 11:30 AM
  #518
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Thanks for not addressing any of the points in my post and misrepresenting my position again! Have a nice day.
When I said that supplemental discipline by it self has not, does not and never will work" this is your reply

Hasn't worked because the rules aren't strict enough (EDIT: I meant to say "supplemental discipline isn't strict enough") and officials aren't given the tools they need to do the job properly.

How is this misrepresenting your position ? you are offering a solution to the problem that I said wont work. You specifically say that supplemental discipline is not strict enough, whose job is it to administer supllemental discipline ?

I'm sorry that you cant logically support your own words, but please stop claiming I'm misrepresenting them when I show them to be untenable.

have a nice day right back at you.

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03-08-2013, 12:18 PM
  #519
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6298/index.htm

(March 2012)
NHL players poll - 99.5% of NHL players DO NOT want fighting banned, as well as 90% of fans on an SI Facebook survey

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03-08-2013, 12:26 PM
  #520
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6298/index.htm

(March 2012)
NHL players poll - 99.5% of NHL players DO NOT want fighting banned, as well as 90% of fans on an SI Facebook survey
That's huge! Thanks for posting that. I like the bit on Lapierre too.

However, as I mentioned before, 99.5% of NHL players opposing a ban on fighting isn't equivalent to 99.5% of players thinking fighting is good for the game. I still think supplemental discipline and officiating can evolve (drastically) to the point where players no longer need to police themselves.

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03-08-2013, 12:29 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6298/index.htm

(March 2012)
NHL players poll - 99.5% of NHL players DO NOT want fighting banned, as well as 90% of fans on an SI Facebook survey
but but but but the globe and mail said only 33% of fans don't want fighting banned! Opinions must of changed a lot since last year!

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03-08-2013, 01:01 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Oobz View Post
but but but but the globe and mail said only 33% of fans don't want fighting banned! Opinions must of changed a lot since last year!
A "Facebook survey" is a voluntary response sample - statistically worthless.

The Globe & Mail's study used actual valid statistical sampling methods.

Please learn a few basic things about statistics before sounding off on it so ignorantly.

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03-08-2013, 01:08 PM
  #523
Oobz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
A "Facebook survey" is a voluntary response sample - statistically worthless.

The Globe & Mail's study used actual valid statistical sampling methods.

Please learn a few basic things about statistics before sounding off on it so ignorantly.
Gathering data, organizing data, analyzing data, and interpreting data. Statistics can be spun, stroked, and stewed to help send your message. When the Globe & Mail article says 2/3 of professional hockey fans want fighting banned, its hard to believe when well more than 1/3 of the crowd stands up during a hockey fight. Sorry I don't let myself be spoon fed by some study conducted by a slanted media outlet.

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03-08-2013, 01:19 PM
  #524
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Whenever there is a fight I jump out of my chair and start yelling at my tv urging my guy to kick the other guys ass. Yeah let's get rid of that. I know a lot of you won't be happy until hockey is like a tabletop game where players stay in their slotted tracks and never touch each other. Be careful what you wish for.

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03-08-2013, 01:24 PM
  #525
sandysan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
A "Facebook survey" is a voluntary response sample - statistically worthless.

The Globe & Mail's study used actual valid statistical sampling methods.

Please learn a few basic things about statistics before sounding off on it so ignorantly.
I'm sorry since you seem to be all "statistical" I looked at the poll and the closest it ever got to the NHL is " professional hockey".

Unless I missed it the question " should the NHL ban fighting" was not asked.

Asking should measures be taken to reduce fighting in hockey, is a completely different kettle of fish that shold the nhl ban fighting.

But as a fan of statistical analyses, I suspect you know this. much like you know that the bradley effect is likely implicated as the non-fighting crowd had done such an admirable job of depicting the pro fighting crowd as knuckle dragging mouth breathing sadists, out to sate some deep help blood lust and corrupt the children.

Support for pornography in public opinion polls is pretty low, i guess the people who do admit to it must have some pretty deep pockets.

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