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Soviet Union beat Canada (4-3) 1991 Canada Cup

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03-07-2013, 05:19 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by hitmen19 View Post
You seem to make a subjective observation on the stick handling of the soviets, the passing, the shooting in comparision to the Canadians. You don't want to use the head to head results of the games, but judge their skills on observation as the determinant of who is better.
In every case, the head to head was a draw. The Soviets pulled away from Canada in the Challenge Cup and won 6-0 in the final. In best on best, the Soviets won 3 and Canada won 3.

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03-07-2013, 05:20 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Well said.

Prep time has the ability to alter cohesiveness and organization, but it can't disguise talent and innate ability. Individual skill will always be obvious to a knowledgeable observer regardless of team's/player's situation.
Absolutely agreed. Developing world class skills is done over the course of many years, not a few practices.

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03-07-2013, 05:22 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Practices and playing together make teams much much better, it's probably one of the most basic concepts in team sports like hockey. You can deny it all you want, but unless you back up you claims with some sort of facts or credible evidence I'm not sure what else can be said.
There is no question that practices make teams better, but playing together is only a minor factor in the equation. Playing better can negate mere familiarity.

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03-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #154
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While alot of what you say has alot of truth to it in here, such as the branding of the NHL and that they didn't want to lose to them (does anybody ever want to lose?), you are confusing 2 diferent concepts.

The spain national football team playing an allstar team of the english premier teams does not make it a contest of Spain vs England. So eventhough, most of the best players were Canadian, not all of them were. And it was a collection of allstars, not a team put together to win. It would have been a huge outcry if skilled scorers were left off for a checking line, which if it was a Canadian entry into a tournament, they would have done. So while it was an incredible exhibition of hockey, with the worlds best players on the ice at the time with huge bragging rights, It was not in anyway a claim to what Country was the best at the time. The Soviets did that in 1981 with there Canada cup win. That was the last time they could claim to have done so.
Then why would they cancel the All-Star game and schedule a best of 3 with the Soviet Union in mid-season? The team was all of Canada's best, plus 3 Swedish players, 2 of which were healthy scratches for Game 2.

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03-07-2013, 07:01 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Could it be that "lots of Europeans have slandered the Canada Cup" because they feel that they got screwed there? Maybe the Soviets and Swedes weren't the only ones.
I can honestly say Finland have been more screwed in the Olympics and Worlds by European (mostly Eastern European) refs than at CC/WC by NHL refs.

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03-07-2013, 07:15 PM
  #156
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I know you have a better argument than that within you! These guys are called the best in hockey history. When they are assigned to an all-star team, its not as if they spend a lot of time wondering "I wonder if my new linemate would prefer to receive a pass on his stick or in his ear?"
Are you aware of the history of the 81/84 (can't remember anymore which one it was) CC team and the conflict between the Oilers and Islanders players in Team Canada? Then you put a bunch of different nationalities representing a league with no preparation time and you call them serious? Besides, even Tihonov didn't claim any victory by goal difference.


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03-07-2013, 07:35 PM
  #157
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I can honestly say Finland have been more screwed in the Olympics and Worlds by European (mostly Eastern European) refs than at CC/WC by NHL refs.
With all due respect, Finland had low expectations in the 70's and 80's. Finland entered 4 Canada Cups, and won 3 of 22 games. 1981 CC was particularly bad for the Finns, and to make things worse, the team ended up getting stuck in an elevator and had to be rescued by the Fire Department.

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03-07-2013, 10:13 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Are you aware of the history of the 81/84 (can't remember anymore which one it was) CC team and the conflict between the Oilers and Islanders players in Team Canada? Then you put a bunch of different nationalities representing a league with no preparation time and you call them serious? Besides, even Tihonov didn't claim any victory by goal difference.
Its ok Jussi, history speaks plenty on its own. When the only best on best tournaments soviets/russians have ever won was in 1981 and nothing in the 33 years since, yakushev is forced to count exhibition series between a national team vs a collection of league players as victories. Canada doesn't even need to count 1972 and still its accomplishments dwarfs those of the soviets/russians. We could just count our 2 gold medals in the last 3 olympics and that would be more in our display case then the soviet russian empire.


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03-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #159
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Its ok Jussi, history speaks plenty on its own. When the only best on best tournaments soviets/russians have ever won was in 1981 and nothing in the 33 years since, yakushev is forced to count exhibition series between a national team vs a collection of league players as victories. Canada doesn't even need to count 1972 and still its accomplishments dwarfs those of the soviets/russians. We could just count our 2 gold medals in the last 3 olympics and that would be more in our display case then the soviet russian empire.
You didn't have to make it so easy for me, Hitmen, but I thank you for doing it. If you don't count exhibition series as best on best, then the Canada Cup and World Cup are eliminated from consideration. Sorry to be the first one to break it to you, but neither the IIHF nor the IOC recognize the Canada Cup as an official tournament. I will graciously and generously accept your concession speech!

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03-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #160
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Wow, Canada has tied brazil in 2 of their 4 football matches in there histories, and lost 1 of them by only 1 goal. I guess Canada's is almost as good as Brazil in football. Lets not the fact that Canada's hasn't won anything close to Brazil in terms of world cups get in ther way. Head to head against there best players are there equals.

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03-07-2013, 10:53 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
There is no question that practices make teams better, but playing together is only a minor factor in the equation. Playing better can negate mere familiarity.
good teamwork and systems are critical for team success in hockey and they take time to perfect

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03-07-2013, 10:56 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You didn't have to make it so easy for me, Hitmen, but I thank you for doing it. If you don't count exhibition series as best on best, then the Canada Cup and World Cup are eliminated from consideration. Sorry to be the first one to break it to you, but neither the IIHF nor the IOC recognize the Canada Cup as an official tournament. I will graciously and generously accept your concession speech!
the Canada Cup was sanctioned by the IIHF, but I don't think that really matters anyway

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03-07-2013, 11:04 PM
  #163
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With all due respect, Finland had low expectations in the 70's and 80's. Finland entered 4 Canada Cups, and won 3 of 22 games. 1981 CC was particularly bad for the Finns, and to make things worse, the team ended up getting stuck in an elevator and had to be rescued by the Fire Department.
I wasn't even referring to games against the top countries, because we got screwed against the likes of West Germany even (granted they had that big Eric guy...) but when we had a chance to bet Czech Rep., USA or Sweden, these idiots would find ways to ruin it. One the most notorious cases was in 1976 Innsbruck Olympics, we would have need one point to win our first ever medal. Down 4-5 against USA near the end of the third period, USA's goalie makes a save, puck hits Hannu Kapanen(father of Sami) on his chest, is going past the goal put he reaches for the puck and puts it in. This result would be enough to secure the medal For some reason Russian ref Viktor Dombrosvki says Kapanen kicked the puck in and disallows it and the game would finish 4-5. I myself even remember a certain ref by the name of Homola (yes, that was his name) coming up with calls that infuriated Finns to misconduct penalties. Point being, any time someone claims IIHF refs would have been fairer or better than NHL refs, I laugh. They were and still are just as incompetent as the NHL ones.

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03-08-2013, 12:22 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Well said.

Prep time has the ability to alter cohesiveness and organization, but it can't disguise talent and innate ability. Individual skill will always be obvious to a knowledgeable observer regardless of team's/player's situation.
I couldn't disagree more. Individual skill can be very hard to assess if not done under equivalent conditions. An individual is always going to look better if they are playing as part of a well practiced, succesful system.

To give you another example you have argued many times that the game is more international now, that the difference between playing in NA and Europe is not that great any more and that the KHL is only slightly behind the NHL in terms of talent. Last year you stated that in your opinion Roman Cervenka was the best player in the world who was not in the NHL. That was your assessment of his individual talent based on your observations of his play in the KHL.

I think we have seen enough of Roman now to say that your ability to assess individual talent as well as the average skill level in the KHL is not very good. Don't lose heart though, as I said making assessments accurately is very hard and even pro scouts get it wrong all the time, so it is hardly surprising that you were off.

Here's the thing, I think you would admit that you are a huge USSR / Russia hockey fan and that you have biases as most fans do. Because you are such a big fan it is hard to take seriously your observations of how good Russian / Soviet players are unless they are backed up by some sort of fact or statistic, as you always overstate how good your players were and understate the accomplishments of your nemesis, Canada. Just say'n it like it is.

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03-08-2013, 09:33 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
the Canada Cup was sanctioned by the IIHF, but I don't think that really matters anyway
The Canada Cup was not an official IIHF tournament, and was not required to submit to IIHF protocols on competition. It was an exhibition series, like the Challenge Cup and Rendezvous, and the IIHF had no power or authority to prohibit or stop the Canada Cup from being played, even if the rules stipulated that Canada would enjoy a 5-on 3 manpower advantage throughout the tournament.

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03-08-2013, 09:44 AM
  #166
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I wasn't even referring to games against the top countries, because we got screwed against the likes of West Germany even (granted they had that big Eric guy...) but when we had a chance to bet Czech Rep., USA or Sweden, these idiots would find ways to ruin it. One the most notorious cases was in 1976 Innsbruck Olympics, we would have need one point to win our first ever medal. Down 4-5 against USA near the end of the third period, USA's goalie makes a save, puck hits Hannu Kapanen(father of Sami) on his chest, is going past the goal put he reaches for the puck and puts it in. This result would be enough to secure the medal For some reason Russian ref Viktor Dombrosvki says Kapanen kicked the puck in and disallows it and the game would finish 4-5. I myself even remember a certain ref by the name of Homola (yes, that was his name) coming up with calls that infuriated Finns to misconduct penalties. Point being, any time someone claims IIHF refs would have been fairer or better than NHL refs, I laugh. They were and still are just as incompetent as the NHL ones.
As our dear friend Hitmen would say, man up! Your team lost to Germany - not surprising. There have been times in the past, particularly in the old days, when teams like Germany were as good as or, on some occasions, better than Finland. Finland has exhibited some noteworthy and impressive performances recently (2006 Olympics, 2011World Championships), but for much of hockey history, Finland has been on the bubble of relegation to Group B and playing with the big boys. Finland's stature automatically increased when Russian hockey collapsed, but the Finns have failed to consistently outdo Sweden, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Americans, and so on.

Interesting that you feel that Soviet referee Dombrovski cheated Finland to favor the US, given the fact that the United States and Soviet Union were not exactly great friends back in those days.

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03-08-2013, 10:03 AM
  #167
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As our dear friend Hitmen would say, man up! Your team lost to Germany - not surprising. There have been times in the past, particularly in the old days, when teams like Germany were as good as or, on some occasions, better than Finland. Finland has exhibited some noteworthy and impressive performances recently (2006 Olympics, 2011World Championships), but for much of hockey history, Finland has been on the bubble of relegation to Group B and playing with the big boys. Finland's stature automatically increased when Russian hockey collapsed, but the Finns have failed to consistently outdo Sweden, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Americans, and so on.

Interesting that you feel that Soviet referee Dombrovski cheated Finland to favor the US, given the fact that the United States and Soviet Union were not exactly great friends back in those days.
Relegation hasn't been even close after the mid/late 80's when hockey players started to become professionals in Finland and were no longer required to go to "normal work" as well. One could say that it began with the WJC gold in 97 and the Olympic silver in 1988. That's when our coaching improved as well. The biggest change occurred on the mental side when Curt Lindström helped unlock that block in 1993-95 and the players "loosened up" and played the best hockey on the international stage during that era.

Like I said, politics didn't even mean anything, it was pure incompetence by IIHF refs that caused so many gray hairs and sometimes even matches. If we elaborate on that even further, even today the best refs don't always officiate at IIHF tournaments, it's mostly the ones that suck up the official in the national federations the best. I know that is the case in Finland and I've read some posts from Swedish and Russians posters as well wondering why ref X was chosen for some tournament.

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03-08-2013, 10:07 AM
  #168
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I couldn't disagree more. Individual skill can be very hard to assess if not done under equivalent conditions. An individual is always going to look better if they are playing as part of a well practiced, succesful system.

To give you another example you have argued many times that the game is more international now, that the difference between playing in NA and Europe is not that great any more and that the KHL is only slightly behind the NHL in terms of talent. Last year you stated that in your opinion Roman Cervenka was the best player in the world who was not in the NHL. That was your assessment of his individual talent based on your observations of his play in the KHL.

I think we have seen enough of Roman now to say that your ability to assess individual talent as well as the average skill level in the KHL is not very good. Don't lose heart though, as I said making assessments accurately is very hard and even pro scouts get it wrong all the time, so it is hardly surprising that you were off.

Here's the thing, I think you would admit that you are a huge USSR / Russia hockey fan and that you have biases as most fans do. Because you are such a big fan it is hard to take seriously your observations of how good Russian / Soviet players are unless they are backed up by some sort of fact or statistic, as you always overstate how good your players were and understate the accomplishments of your nemesis, Canada. Just say'n it like it is.
Its good that you are not a fan of Canada, thereby liberating you from biased judgment. If Canada plays Russia in Sochi, have you decided which team you will support?

Your critique of Zine is most puzzling! You attribute a post to Zine in which he allegedly says that Roman Cervenka is "the best player outside of the NHL." And yet you offer no evidence that there was a better player outside of the NHL than Cervenka.
Rather than communicating and enumerating the basis for your difference of opinion with Zine, so we can judge whether his judgment was wrong, you skip the invalidation part and say "I think we have seen enough of Roman to say that your ability to assess individual talent as well as the average skill level in the KHL is not very good." What does that mean, what have you seen, is there any decent basis to criticize Zine?

Instead, you move on to an ad hominem attack on Zine, claiming that he is a "huge USSR/Russia hockey fan." Because he disagrees with your position on the Canada Cup, you try to attack him for a characteristic that he has never declared. He has never said that he is a big USSR/Russian fan. Your attack on Zine is completely disorganized, and you have left huge gaps in substantiating the basis for your claims.

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03-08-2013, 10:34 AM
  #169
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Relegation hasn't been even close after the mid/late 80's when hockey players started to become professionals in Finland and were no longer required to go to "normal work" as well. One could say that it began with the WJC gold in 97 and the Olympic silver in 1988. That's when our coaching improved as well. The biggest change occurred on the mental side when Curt Lindström helped unlock that block in 1993-95 and the players "loosened up" and played the best hockey on the international stage during that era.

Like I said, politics didn't even mean anything, it was pure incompetence by IIHF refs that caused so many gray hairs and sometimes even matches. If we elaborate on that even further, even today the best refs don't always officiate at IIHF tournaments, it's mostly the ones that suck up the official in the national federations the best. I know that is the case in Finland and I've read some posts from Swedish and Russians posters as well wondering why ref X was chosen for some tournament.
Whether there are or aren't incompetent officials in Europe is not the point. The point is whether Dag Olsson of Sweden was relieved of his duties because of incompetence, or because he called enough penalties against Canada in the 1984 Canada round robin match to result in the Soviets beating Canada 6-3. If the latter is true, which I wholeheartedly believe, then it constitutes managerial manipulation of the tournament in order to give the home team, Canada, the best chance to win. Olsson was replaced with Mike Noeth, a very young, very inexperienced, and frankly overwhelmed American amateur hockey offical who had stated that his ambition was to be an official in the NHL. (On a side note, while Olsson was highly regarded enough in the IIHF to referee Olympic Gold Medal games, Noeth never realized his goal of reffing in the NHL, and because his work was so bad and complaints about him abounded from several teams, Eagleson himself dropped him after 1987).

Because the Canada Cup was an exhibition tournament organized by the NHLPA, Eagleson had the right to position refs who would give Canada the best chance of winning if he chose to do so. All the teams, including the Soviets, accepted the terms - the Soviets received a lot of cash in exchange for their participation. But lets not give this tournament the same status as an IIHF tournament, in which rules for competitive fairness are enforced. Whether there are bad refs or not, the referees are not selected based on their willingness to help one team or the other win. The Canada Cup did not meet those standards, and should only be viewed as another hockey exhibition designed to make more for Canadian hockey pros (very few non-Canadians played in the NHL in the '80's).

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03-08-2013, 10:51 AM
  #170
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Whether there are or aren't incompetent officials in Europe is not the point. The point is whether Dag Olsson of Sweden was relieved of his duties because of incompetence, or because he called enough penalties against Canada in the 1984 Canada round robin match to result in the Soviets beating Canada 6-3. If the latter is true, which I wholeheartedly believe, then it constitutes managerial manipulation of the tournament in order to give the home team, Canada, the best chance to win. Olsson was replaced with Mike Noeth, a very young, very inexperienced, and frankly overwhelmed American amateur hockey offical who had stated that his ambition was to be an official in the NHL. (On a side note, while Olsson was highly regarded enough in the IIHF to referee Olympic Gold Medal games, Noeth never realized his goal of reffing in the NHL, and because his work was so bad and complaints about him abounded from several teams, Eagleson himself dropped him after 1987).

Because the Canada Cup was an exhibition tournament organized by the NHLPA, Eagleson had the right to position refs who would give Canada the best chance of winning if he chose to do so. All the teams, including the Soviets, accepted the terms - the Soviets received a lot of cash in exchange for their participation. But lets not give this tournament the same status as an IIHF tournament, in which rules for competitive fairness are enforced. Whether there are bad refs or not, the referees are not selected based on their willingness to help one team or the other win. The Canada Cup did not meet those standards, and should only be viewed as another hockey exhibition designed to make more for Canadian hockey pros (very few non-Canadians played in the NHL in the '80's).
Correction. Apparently Noeth did work 183 games in the NHL over a 6-year career, according to the NHL officials website. His first game was in October 1983, and his last was at the end of the 1987-88 season. He apparently worked mainly in the AHL, but substituted for NHL officials when needed. If you Google his name, you will see an entry from the Los Angeles Times about a 1977 game between Boston and LA. Toward the bottom of that column, you will see reference to Mario Lemieux ripping Noeth for incompetence after he called 29 penalties in a Penguins game played sometime around January 1988. Lemieux was quoted as saying that Noeth "is not ready to referee in the NHL." Amen, Mario!

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03-08-2013, 01:28 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The Canada Cup was not an official IIHF tournament, and was not required to submit to IIHF protocols on competition. It was an exhibition series, like the Challenge Cup and Rendezvous, and the IIHF had no power or authority to prohibit or stop the Canada Cup from being played, even if the rules stipulated that Canada would enjoy a 5-on 3 manpower advantage throughout the tournament.
As far as I know the term exhibition in this context is completely subjective and that you are only using that term in a hopeless attempt to somehow lessen the significance of the tournament.

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03-08-2013, 01:42 PM
  #172
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Its good that you are not a fan of Canada, thereby liberating you from biased judgment. If Canada plays Russia in Sochi, have you decided which team you will support?

Your critique of Zine is most puzzling! You attribute a post to Zine in which he allegedly says that Roman Cervenka is "the best player outside of the NHL." And yet you offer no evidence that there was a better player outside of the NHL than Cervenka.
Rather than communicating and enumerating the basis for your difference of opinion with Zine, so we can judge whether his judgment was wrong, you skip the invalidation part and say "I think we have seen enough of Roman to say that your ability to assess individual talent as well as the average skill level in the KHL is not very good." What does that mean, what have you seen, is there any decent basis to criticize Zine?

Instead, you move on to an ad hominem attack on Zine, claiming that he is a "huge USSR/Russia hockey fan." Because he disagrees with your position on the Canada Cup, you try to attack him for a characteristic that he has never declared. He has never said that he is a big USSR/Russian fan. Your attack on Zine is completely disorganized, and you have left huge gaps in substantiating the basis for your claims.
I never said I wasn't a fan of Canada and while I do think I am much less biased in these regards than you or Zine since I am a fan I always back my arguments up with facts, statistics and try to make logical conclusions. This is why a casual observation from someone like yourself means absolutely nothing to me unless you also provide some sort of credible evidence to back up whatever claim you are making. For example if you were to say you watched a Canada Cup and that in your opinion the players on the USSR were equal to or better than Canada's and not provide any further evidence why, beyond your own observations, then you are really not adding anything to the discussion. Your bias makes your assessments more or less meaningless.

As for the rest I think you need to go back and read my post again. There was no gap in my argument, just in your comprehension.

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03-08-2013, 02:23 PM
  #173
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You didn't have to make it so easy for me, Hitmen, but I thank you for doing it. If you don't count exhibition series as best on best, then the Canada Cup and World Cup are eliminated from consideration. Sorry to be the first one to break it to you, but neither the IIHF nor the IOC recognize the Canada Cup as an official tournament. I will graciously and generously accept your concession speech!
The soviet national team is the best at giving concession speeches. They haven't won anything in over 33 years in a best on best format. I'm sure your roladex of excuses for not winning on the ice, but trying to negate the accomplishments of teams such as the USA, Sweden, Czech republic and easily the most accomplished, Canada should be coming to an end soon.

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03-08-2013, 03:42 PM
  #174
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As far as I know the term exhibition in this context is completely subjective and that you are only using that term in a hopeless attempt to somehow lessen the significance of the tournament.
The tournament had no significance at all. It was an exhibition of great hockey players gathered to play great hockey. It couldn't confer a World Championship title, only a Canada Cup title.

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03-08-2013, 03:48 PM
  #175
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I never said I wasn't a fan of Canada and while I do think I am much less biased in these regards than you or Zine since I am a fan I always back my arguments up with facts, statistics and try to make logical conclusions. This is why a casual observation from someone like yourself means absolutely nothing to me unless you also provide some sort of credible evidence to back up whatever claim you are making. For example if you were to say you watched a Canada Cup and that in your opinion the players on the USSR were equal to or better than Canada's and not provide any further evidence why, beyond your own observations, then you are really not adding anything to the discussion. Your bias makes your assessments more or less meaningless.

As for the rest I think you need to go back and read my post again. There was no gap in my argument, just in your comprehension.
As for evidence of Soviets having the edge in skating, stickhandling, passing, etc., Google Mark Mulvoy, Sports Illustrated, 1972 Series of the Century." I didn't think my opinion was needed the already mountainous testimony.

As vigorously as you defend Canada and the Canada Cup, and your choice of the name Mr. Kanadensisk, forgive me if I mistook you for a fan of Canada.

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