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Soviet Union beat Canada (4-3) 1991 Canada Cup

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03-08-2013, 04:52 PM
  #176
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by hitmen19 View Post
The soviet national team is the best at giving concession speeches. They haven't won anything in over 33 years in a best on best format. I'm sure your roladex of excuses for not winning on the ice, but trying to negate the accomplishments of teams such as the USA, Sweden, Czech republic and easily the most accomplished, Canada should be coming to an end soon.
Correction. The Soviets have won 3 best on best titles: The Challenge Cup, the '81 Canada Cup and Rendezvous '87. During the same period Canada also won 3, the 72 Series, and the 84 and 87 Canada Cups. As is typical, it ends up a tie.

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03-08-2013, 05:24 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I never said I wasn't a fan of Canada and while I do think I am much less biased in these regards than you or Zine since I am a fan I always back my arguments up with facts, statistics and try to make logical conclusions. This is why a casual observation from someone like yourself means absolutely nothing to me unless you also provide some sort of credible evidence to back up whatever claim you are making. For example if you were to say you watched a Canada Cup and that in your opinion the players on the USSR were equal to or better than Canada's and not provide any further evidence why, beyond your own observations, then you are really not adding anything to the discussion. Your bias makes your assessments more or less meaningless.
Like Yakushev72 said, please stop the "you're a Soviet homer" rhetoric. Personal attacks and/or characterizations do nothing to further your argument because you're not debating the issue.

Let's keep this an honest give-and-take discussion.

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03-08-2013, 06:00 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Individual skill can be very hard to assess if not done under equivalent conditions. An individual is always going to look better if they are playing as part of a well practiced, succesful system.

To give you another example you have argued many times that the game is more international now, that the difference between playing in NA and Europe is not that great any more and that the KHL is only slightly behind the NHL in terms of talent. Last year you stated that in your opinion Roman Cervenka was the best player in the world who was not in the NHL. That was your assessment of his individual talent based on your observations of his play in the KHL.

I think we have seen enough of Roman now to say that your ability to assess individual talent as well as the average skill level in the KHL is not very good. Don't lose heart though, as I said making assessments accurately is very hard and even pro scouts get it wrong all the time, so it is hardly surprising that you were off.

Here's the thing, I think you would admit that you are a huge USSR / Russia hockey fan and that you have biases as most fans do. Because you are such a big fan it is hard to take seriously your observations of how good Russian / Soviet players are unless they are backed up by some sort of fact or statistic, as you always overstate how good your players were and understate the accomplishments of your nemesis, Canada. Just say'n it like it is.
Again, a player's innate talent is easy to assess regardless of situation.
Prep time, unfamiliarity with a style of game, etc., have the ability to alter effectiveness, but innate talent is easy to spot in those situations regardless.

Example? Evander Kane. An NHLer whose skill-set, strengths and weaknesses were easy to evaluate in the KHL. True, he was a really crappy KHLer, but I'd never say he is a crappy hockey player; just a player who skills didn't adapt well.
On the flip side, according to your "judge talent by NHL means only", Kane is a 100% better hockey player than Cervenka?


BTW, I stand by my Cervenka statement. Since the topic was "best player not in the NHL", NHL performance was excluded from my criteria......similarly to how a player's KHL performance would be irrelevant in a "Best NHLer" poll.


Last edited by Zine: 03-08-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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03-08-2013, 08:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by hitmen19 View Post
The soviet national team is the best at giving concession speeches. They haven't won anything in over 33 years in a best on best format. I'm sure your roladex of excuses for not winning on the ice, but trying to negate the accomplishments of teams such as the USA, Sweden, Czech republic and easily the most accomplished, Canada should be coming to an end soon.
The Soviet national team has been formally deceased since 1991, spiritually the late 80s. 1989 was the last true breath.


Last edited by Fantomas: 03-09-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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03-08-2013, 11:41 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Correction. Apparently Noeth did work 183 games in the NHL over a 6-year career, according to the NHL officials website. His first game was in October 1983, and his last was at the end of the 1987-88 season. He apparently worked mainly in the AHL, but substituted for NHL officials when needed. If you Google his name, you will see an entry from the Los Angeles Times about a 1977 game between Boston and LA. Toward the bottom of that column, you will see reference to Mario Lemieux ripping Noeth for incompetence after he called 29 penalties in a Penguins game played sometime around January 1988. Lemieux was quoted as saying that Noeth "is not ready to referee in the NHL." Amen, Mario!
Noeth was more obvious than the other North American referees in the Canada Cups.


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03-09-2013, 04:15 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Correction. The Soviets have won 3 best on best titles: The Challenge Cup, the '81 Canada Cup and Rendezvous '87. During the same period Canada also won 3, the 72 Series, and the 84 and 87 Canada Cups. As is typical, it ends up a tie.
That's a bit too generous; nobody won the Rendezvous '87. i.e. I don't think it was settled beforehand that "if both teams win a game, the team that has the better goal difference wins the series".

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03-09-2013, 10:23 AM
  #182
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I remember little of the game itself, the only incident that keeps coming back again is Alexander Semak's high stick on Gretzky that could well leave him one-eyed. In retaliation, some 20 seconds on, Al MacInnis did a vicious cross check across the face of a previously uninvolved Alexei Zhamnov for a game penalty on Al. As for the game, it was nothing special. I don't even remember the score. Canada was SOOOO dominant. The semifinal against Sweden, it was different and enjoyable and hi-class hockey.

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03-09-2013, 01:20 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
Noeth was more obvious than the other North American referees in the Canada Cups.

If pictures are worth a thousand words, this video truly says it all about the Canada Cup! If Mike Noeth was the most incompetent and/or biased ref in the history of hockey, that was all the more reason for Eagleson to hire him. He was easily controlled and influenced.

Messier's elbow in this clip was only a love tap in comparison to his elbow on Vladimir Kovin in the 1984 Canada Cup. See it on youtube.

My favorite from this clip is play-by-play announcer Dan Kelly saying "I'm cheering for Canada, but this is ridiculous."

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03-09-2013, 01:22 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Anderson9 View Post
I remember little of the game itself, the only incident that keeps coming back again is Alexander Semak's high stick on Gretzky that could well leave him one-eyed. In retaliation, some 20 seconds on, Al MacInnis did a vicious cross check across the face of a previously uninvolved Alexei Zhamnov for a game penalty on Al. As for the game, it was nothing special. I don't even remember the score. Canada was SOOOO dominant. The semifinal against Sweden, it was different and enjoyable and hi-class hockey.
The rule is that anytime a game ends in a 3-3 tie, one team has obviously totally dominated the other.

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03-09-2013, 01:26 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
That's a bit too generous; nobody won the Rendezvous '87. i.e. I don't think it was settled beforehand that "if both teams win a game, the team that has the better goal difference wins the series".
In international hockey, goal differential was probably the most important tie-breaker during that era. It lasted as least as long as the 1992 Olympics, where there was no medal round, and no overtime under any circumstances. The Soviets were prepared to declare victory in the 1972 Series based on goal differential, were it not for Paul Henderson's goal with 34 seconds remaining in Game 8.

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03-09-2013, 02:56 PM
  #186
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The Mike Noeth clip is fantastic.

If Eagelson banned European referees in the name of competence and fairness, why was Mike Noeth not held to the same criteria? Canadian announcers were literally laughing at Noeth's refereeing in that video.

Not only did Eagelson fail to reprimand Noeth, he was promoted to referee the final.

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03-09-2013, 04:12 PM
  #187
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Wow, i guess there continues to be more different excuses now. So how did the refs make russia lose in the last 4 olympics? They have the 6th best medal haul out of the 7 nations that really have a chance to medal. Congrats on achieving more then Slovakia. Canada has the memories of best on best tournaments wins, and 2 gold medals with best on best competitions. The soviets/russians have memories of a tied 2 game 1 goal differential win, that even the coach says was a tie series. I guess when you haven't accomplished anything else, you have to claim the bottom of the barrel wins

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03-09-2013, 04:38 PM
  #188
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Canada best on best titles with multiple countries. 1976, 1984, 1987, 1991, 2002 olympic gold, 2004, 2010 gold medal.

Soviet union best on best title with multiple countries 1981

Canada record vs Soviet union in a multiple game series 1-0 1972

Soviet record against NHL players 1-1-1* 1979.


Last edited by joe89: 03-10-2013 at 02:58 PM. Reason: ..
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03-09-2013, 06:14 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by hitmen19 View Post
Canada best on best titles with multiple countries. 1976, 1984, 1987, 1991, 2002 olympic gold, 2004, 2010 gold medal.

Soviet union best on best title with multiple countries 1981

Canada record vs Soviet union in a multiple game series 1-0 1972

Soviet record against NHL players 1-1-1* 1979.

* There is one individual in the world who goes by the forum name, yakushev72, that claims the rendevouz 1987 1-1 tied series as a win for the Soviet Union, eventhough no one on the Soviet Union team ever did. Again, the tournament was against NHL allstars, and not the Canadian national team. It is like the spain national team beating the english premier team allstars and claiming it as a victory against England.
It was the Canadian national team, plus a few Americans and Europeans of similar caliber.

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03-10-2013, 03:08 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It was the Canadian national team, plus a few Americans and Europeans of similar caliber.
In that case Team USSR's celebration would have been wild, goggle eyed, mobbing the goalie and tossing Mr. Tikhonov. There would have been frustration and dismay on the faces of Gretzky or Bourque etc. In fact the facial evidence showed a typical player reaction to a tied game. The home team that couldn't preserve the lead, had less smiling faces than the visitors that tied the series on aggregate. This is no Champions League soccer where goal differentials do matter. Rendezvous-87 wasn't a playoff format at all.

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03-10-2013, 08:08 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The tournament had no significance at all. It was an exhibition of great hockey players gathered to play great hockey. It couldn't confer a World Championship title, only a Canada Cup title.
Sorry if I don’t chuckle quietly a bit at this one. I could care less about the IIHF or the name of the tournament. What made the Canada Cups so significant was that “great hockey players gathered to play great hockey”.

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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
As for evidence of Soviets having the edge in skating, stickhandling, passing, etc., Google Mark Mulvoy, Sports Illustrated, 1972 Series of the Century." I didn't think my opinion was needed the already mountainous testimony.

As vigorously as you defend Canada and the Canada Cup, and your choice of the name Mr. Kanadensisk, forgive me if I mistook you for a fan of Canada.
I am a fan of Canada and I’m sorry your opinion based on casual observations, or really anyone else’s means next to nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If pictures are worth a thousand words, this video truly says it all about the Canada Cup! If Mike Noeth was the most incompetent and/or biased ref in the history of hockey, that was all the more reason for Eagleson to hire him. He was easily controlled and influenced.

Messier's elbow in this clip was only a love tap in comparison to his elbow on Vladimir Kovin in the 1984 Canada Cup. See it on youtube.

My favorite from this clip is play-by-play announcer Dan Kelly saying "I'm cheering for Canada, but this is ridiculous."
I really get a kick that someone spent the time to put a video like this together. In every game, series, tournament, etc, you name it there are calls which are missed or questionable, or where people may have dove, etc. Making a video of every call you feel went against your team and completely ignoring any that may have went the other way basically epitomizes what a sore loser is. Funny how it is only the Soviet fans who felt the need to make something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Correction. The Soviets have won 3 best on best titles: The Challenge Cup, the '81 Canada Cup and Rendezvous '87. During the same period Canada also won 3, the 72 Series, and the 84 and 87 Canada Cups. As is typical, it ends up a tie.
So the 1987 Canada Cup had six nations competing and 20 games were played to determine the winner. Rendezvous ‘87 had one national team, one league all-star team, and only consisted of two games and ended in a tie, yah those are comparable for sure.

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03-10-2013, 09:40 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Like Yakushev72 said, please stop the "you're a Soviet homer" rhetoric. Personal attacks and/or characterizations do nothing to further your argument because you're not debating the issue.

Let's keep this an honest give-and-take discussion.
I didn't call you a homer, those are your words, all I am saying is that you are clearly a big big fan of Soviet / Russian hockey and as evidence I would put forth your body of work on these boards. I didn't mean it as an insult, for example I don't think Don Cherry would object to being called a huge fan of Canadian hockey, but I think it certainly effects his objectivity as it does with most people that passionate about a team or country.

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03-10-2013, 10:09 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Again, a player's innate talent is easy to assess regardless of situation.
Prep time, unfamiliarity with a style of game, etc., have the ability to alter effectiveness, but innate talent is easy to spot in those situations regardless.

Example? Evander Kane. An NHLer whose skill-set, strengths and weaknesses were easy to evaluate in the KHL. True, he was a really crappy KHLer, but I'd never say he is a crappy hockey player; just a player who skills didn't adapt well.
On the flip side, according to your "judge talent by NHL means only", Kane is a 100% better hockey player than Cervenka?


BTW, I stand by my Cervenka statement. Since the topic was "best player not in the NHL", NHL performance was excluded from my criteria......similarly to how a player's KHL performance would be irrelevant in a "Best NHLer" poll.
If you are that good at picking up on innate talent then I'm surprised you are not one of the most sought after scouts in the world. As I said before the professionals get it wrong all the time, so I'm sorry that I don't buy your claim.

So here's the thing, in the past you argued up and down that playing international tournaments under European styled officiating, rules, rink size, etc did not give the European teams a large advantage because the game was so "international" now that the difference between NA and Europe was no longer significant. Now that it suits you you are contradicting your previous arguments with regards to how the NA - Europe things effects guys like Kane and Cervenka.

When people come to the table arguing in favour of a specific agenda it makes it much easier to prove them wrong because usually when cornered things like facts, evidence and common sense go out the window. I'm not saying you are wrong all the time, but there are things you have gone to the wall on that have turned out over time not to be true, such as Cervenka, the NHLPA's resolve to force Olympic participation, the depth of the KHL, etc, etc.

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03-10-2013, 11:55 PM
  #194
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Interesting to follow all this bickering, but penny for my thought, Best player not in the NHL would not be Roman Cervenka, Ilya Nikulin has to be higher then him. Perhaps forward, but Nikulin's effectiveness whether with Ak Bars or the Russian National team by far exceeds Cervenka's capabilities. He would be an incredible addition on any NHL Team, or Winnipeg if they still retain his rights.

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03-11-2013, 06:34 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If you are that good at picking up on innate talent then I'm surprised you are not one of the most sought after scouts in the world. As I said before the professionals get it wrong all the time, so I'm sorry that I don't buy your claim.

So here's the thing, in the past you argued up and down that playing international tournaments under European styled officiating, rules, rink size, etc did not give the European teams a large advantage because the game was so "international" now that the difference between NA and Europe was no longer significant. Now that it suits you you are contradicting your previous arguments with regards to how the NA - Europe things effects guys like Kane and Cervenka.

There is no contradiction.

Increased familiarity w/ big ice has made it easier for N.A. teams to identify and successfully incorporate NHL elements, gameplans, and fundamentals into the international game (Team Canada thrives with it all the time). However, these frameworks are still worlds away from those used by most of the KHL. Yes it's all on big ice, but both sides tend to use players very differently. Sorry, A ≠ B.

This is why a very NA style Evander Kane can thrive on big ice with Team Canada, yet be total garbage with Dynamo Minsk.


Last edited by Zine: 03-11-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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03-11-2013, 06:58 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
When people come to the table arguing in favour of a specific agenda it makes it much easier to prove them wrong because usually when cornered things like facts, evidence and common sense go out the window. I'm not saying you are wrong all the time, but there are things you have gone to the wall on that have turned out over time not to be true, such as Cervenka, the NHLPA's resolve to force Olympic participation, the depth of the KHL, etc, etc.

It's funny, I could have written those EXACT SAME words (above) in response to any of your posts.

But arbitrarily claiming somebody has been proven wrong, has an agenda, and "throws common sense out the window" isn't furthering anything in this thread. Just more generalizations and back-handed insults.



Regardless, I stand by my point (as I've proven). Skill-set identification is easy, although (I must admit) projecting how it will translate to a different style game isn't an exact science......mostly because there are so many on and off ice variables involved.


Last edited by Zine: 03-11-2013 at 07:04 AM.
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