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Evander Kane for Phil Kessel

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Old
03-08-2013, 08:20 PM
  #51
Deuce Awesome
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I guess Evander Kane is the latest HF "Young Superstar"


I personally wouldn't do this trade from the Leafs POV, having Kadri coming up seems like he brings a lot to what Kane offers.

Kessel is a pure goal scorer, who has been improving his all round play (except for physical stuff which he avoids like the plague) and is fine right where he is.

The Leafs had their monthly loss to Boston so all the belle weather fans are screaming at Kessel for not scoring four goals that game.

Thats not to take anything away from Evander, I hope he works out for the Jets. Just not a trade I make if Im Nonis.

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Old
03-08-2013, 08:58 PM
  #52
Norm MacDonald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Kane is 21 this year, he was 20 last season. In Kessels 20 year old year he had 37 points in 82 games. Last year at 20 Kane had 57 points in 74 games.

Kane is a better player than Kessel this year. Unless you think Kessels .02 ppg over Kanes is worth the much less physical play? Or the worse defensive game?

So we have a guy with 10 times as many hits (in 2 less games ) with a +2 on a team thats -11, that is a top penalty killer.

Or the guy with .02 ppg higher that is scared of going into corners and who doesn't Pk at all. Minus 2 on a team that's plus 10.

How exactly is Kessel better this year?
Because Kane is a secondary scorer who sucks offense from his linemates whereas Kessel is a primary scorer who elevates the production of whomever he plays with.

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:04 PM
  #53
veganhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Because Kane is a secondary scorer who sucks offense from his linemates whereas Kessel is a primary scorer who elevates the production of whomever he plays with.
Yeah you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:06 PM
  #54
Teeder9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Because Kane is a secondary scorer who sucks offense from his linemates whereas Kessel is a primary scorer who elevates the production of whomever he plays with.
As in his linemates get no help from him to score so they need to play better? Agreed

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:06 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Because Kane is a secondary scorer who sucks offense from his linemates whereas Kessel is a primary scorer who elevates the production of whomever he plays with.
Ah I get it. Even though Kane is objectively the better player, cause Kessel has better line mates that score more that makes him better?

Have you considered that maybe Bozak and Lupul have better numbers because they're better than Antropov / Burmistrov?

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:11 PM
  #56
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Ah I get it. Even though Kane is objectively the better player, cause Kessel has better line mates that score more that makes him better?

Have you considered that maybe Bozak and Lupul have better numbers because they're better than Antropov / Burmistrov?
Kessel played with Bozak and Crabb for a good while and Bozak ain't that great himself

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:14 PM
  #57
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Kessel + Gardiner for Kane + 1st + 3rd

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:30 PM
  #58
Norm MacDonald
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Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
As in his linemates get no help from him to score so they need to play better? Agreed
His line mates have been bad, but Kane taking bad shot every chance he gets doesn't help, and its why there is such a discrepancy between his stats and his linemates'. Kane can get away with it because he' SUPER talented and because he's generally not facing the top shutdown defenders. However, like I said, it will only get him so far.

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
They both have their strengths and weaknesses. I hope that Kane will actually evolve a bit more hockey IQ and vision like Kessel has in the past few years. That being said let's compare them...

PK:
Kane wins by default because he's the only one used here, and he's been pretty good in his time there. I'm sure Kessel would be good here, but unsure and partially skeptical if he'd be as good or better.

ES:
Kane wins again. It's seldom known that Kane is one of the top even strength goal scorers in the league.
Last season he was scoring at a faster rate per icetime than Neal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Kessel, Hartnell, Moulson or Perry (7/10 on the top 10 goal scorers list). Keep in mind he did most of this with his linemates being Alex Burmistrov and Kyle Wellwood... 3rd liners on most team (although Burmi has top6 potential).
Kane is scoring at almost the exact same rate this season while leading the league in shots/game and has almost doubled his primary assist production per minute.
While I think Kessel's defensive abilities are underrated by many, Kane is the only one of the two to consistently out-chance and out-possess their opposition. Also, in the last 3 years, Kane's SA per 60mins has ranged from 24-28, while Kessel's has ranged from 29-34.

PP:
Kessel has a very clean win. Stats may make it seem closer than it is. While last season Kane actually scored more per min of PP time than Kessel, Kane relies too much on his speed and I'd still say Kessel is better here. If Kane does gain some hockey IQ to work the PP better (or Jets' learn how to use him on the PP better), than you'll probably see Kane on the bottom 5 of the top10 goal scorers list for quite a few years.


When you add youth, grit, hitting, going to dirty areas, and contract, it is understandable why a Jets' fan can conclude Evander Kane to trump Phil Kessel.
Personally I say it's close enough that subjective preferences can skew it either way.
Why do people ignore facts/results...

That's right... On Kessel's "dominate" season last year Kane was actually scoring more goals relative to his icetime both even strength and power play than Kessel...


Remember results matter. Regardless if the player plays your preferred style (this goes for both fan bases).


Last edited by garret9: 03-08-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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Old
03-08-2013, 09:32 PM
  #60
JetsHomer
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Didn't realize getting a lot of pucks on net was a bad thing in hockey. Guess all those hockey interviews I watched were misleading...

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:44 PM
  #61
lebdafor norris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Kane is 21 this year, he was 20 last season. In Kessels 20 year old year he had 37 points in 82 games. Last year at 20 Kane had 57 points in 74 games.

Kane is a better player than Kessel this year. Unless you think Kessels .02 ppg over Kanes is worth the much less physical play? Or the worse defensive game?

So we have a guy with 10 times as many hits (in 2 less games ) with a +2 on a team thats -11, that is a top penalty killer.

Or the guy with .02 ppg higher that is scared of going into corners and who doesn't Pk at all. Minus 2 on a team that's plus 10.

How exactly is Kessel better this year?
Different players develop at a different pace. Using this reasoning then i guess kane in 2-3 years>>>> Giroux considering giroux only had 47 points in 82 games as a 21 years old. Also wasn't that just after the season kessel recovered from cancer?

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Old
03-08-2013, 09:51 PM
  #62
JetsHomer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebdafor norris View Post
Different players develop at a different pace. Using this reasoning then i guess kane in 2-3 years>>>> Giroux considering giroux only had 47 points in 82 games as a 21 years old. Also wasn't that just after the season kessel recovered from cancer?
Way to completely ignore all the numbers pointing how Kane is better this year

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Old
03-08-2013, 10:24 PM
  #63
Seanahue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Way to completely ignore all the numbers pointing how Kane is better this year
What's that? FACTS! USING...NUMBERS!!!! GET....THE HELL.....OUT OF HERE!

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Old
03-09-2013, 12:14 AM
  #64
Norm MacDonald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Way to completely ignore all the numbers pointing how Kane is better this year
Kane: .75 ppg
Kessel: .8 ppg
.8 > .75

Not that stats tell the whole story (far from it), but saying that Kane has been "objectively" better based on statistics this season is categorically wrong. Even if you think Kane is an elite defender because he's the #6 penalty killing forward on the team or whatever, that's a subjective judgment of what characteristics are important in a forward.

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Old
03-09-2013, 12:57 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Kane: .75 ppg
Kessel: .8 ppg
.8 > .75

Not that stats tell the whole story (far from it), but saying that Kane has been "objectively" better based on statistics this season is categorically wrong. Even if you think Kane is an elite defender because he's the #6 penalty killing forward on the team or whatever, that's a subjective judgment of what characteristics are important in a forward.
You are dead wrong.
Evander can do a lot more than just score, when he is off, he can hit, lead and provide energy, what can Kessel do? ............................ crickets

Evander >>>>>>>>>>> Kessel.
But since he is a leaf he must be god

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Old
03-09-2013, 01:30 AM
  #66
JetsHomer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
Kane: .75 ppg
Kessel: .8 ppg
.8 > .75

Not that stats tell the whole story (far from it), but saying that Kane has been "objectively" better based on statistics this season is categorically wrong. Even if you think Kane is an elite defender because he's the #6 penalty killing forward on the team or whatever, that's a subjective judgment of what characteristics are important in a forward.
You really think the 3 extra points over an 82 game season balences out the 10x more hit numbers?

And you're not correct about Kanes Pk. He didn't pk at all for the first fourteen games. During that time the Jets had the worst pk in the league, getting scored on over 30% of the time. 9 games ago the Jets changed their pk style and now play a very fast pk, with a heavy forecheck. It fits Kanes style perfectly and with him and the new system the team has gone 21/21 on the pk the last 9 games. He's really really good at Pk in this system. Opponents barely ever get set up and he's a huge breakaway threat.

I've watched 22 Jets games this year and around 14 or 15 Leafs games cause my room mate is a big Leafs fan. Kane has been subjectively better this year too. He's having a much more impactful year than Kessel

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Old
03-09-2013, 02:08 AM
  #67
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Didn't Kane get cut from the KHL?

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Old
03-09-2013, 02:19 AM
  #68
lebdafor norris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Way to completely ignore all the numbers pointing how Kane is better this year
Way to ignore the part of the post i specifically bolded to show which part of it my comment is referring too. Also I wasn't arguing Kessel>>Kane I was simply implying that the argument has its flaws. But while where at it just because your so keen with numbers why not compare there stats right that as 21 year olds lets see one had a ppg of .86 and the other currently has a ppg of.75, guess which one is which.

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Old
03-09-2013, 02:31 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
You are 100% correct except for the fact that Kane is a much better player than Phil "Plays as hard as a throw pillow" Kessel.

Kessel has 2 more points in 2 more games than Kane does. Man....he's blowing Kane out of the water. Surely there aren't any other facts that we could look at except for OOOOOOH BAM!:

Hits
Kane: 67
Kessel: 7


Giveaways
Kane: 14
Kessel: 18

Takeaways
Kane: 10
Kessel: 7


SH TOI / Game
Kane: 0:47
Kessel: 0:02

PP TOI / GAME
Kane: 2:30
Kessel: 3:38


Kane does way more out there and scores at a similar level despite seeing over a full minute less of PP time compared to Phil "Feather Boa" Kessel.
This about sums up the answer to the op... no go.

younger. more physical. fearless. better defensively. solid on pk.

i give kessel the edge in several categories too (hands, shot, finesse) and i wont belittle kessel like some are cause hes a great player, but he simply does not have the value of evander kane.

i think the jets would love to add a scoring winger, but it will not involve a core piece leaving. they will be patient either through drafting or free agency

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Old
03-09-2013, 02:32 AM
  #70
Norm MacDonald
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Originally Posted by TexRanger View Post
You are dead wrong.
Evander can do a lot more than just score, when he is off, he can hit, lead and provide energy, what can Kessel do? ............................ crickets

Evander >>>>>>>>>>> Kessel.
But since he is a leaf he must be god
Kessel can contribute more offensively than Kane, which is the most important thing a forward does. Other guys on the team can refill the MORALE bar with a +ENERGY boost if that important to you.

By the way, I'm not a fan of either team. I just despise homerism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
You really think the 3 extra points over an 82 game season balences out the 10x more hit numbers?
You're the one that was claiming Kane is objectively better based on stats. Even if you look past the flawed argument, my post points out that your entire premise is wrong.

Quote:
And you're not correct about Kanes Pk. He didn't pk at all for the first fourteen games. During that time the Jets had the worst pk in the league, getting scored on over 30% of the time. 9 games ago the Jets changed their pk style and now play a very fast pk, with a heavy forecheck. It fits Kanes style perfectly and with him and the new system the team has gone 21/21 on the pk the last 9 games. He's really really good at Pk in this system. Opponents barely ever get set up and he's a huge breakaway threat.
Good to know Kane has had 9 games of being a good penalty killer. That fact isn't of marginal importance at all.
Quote:
I've watched 22 Jets games this year and around 14 or 15 Leafs games cause my room mate is a big Leafs fan. Kane has been subjectively better this year too. He's having a much more impactful year than Kessel
If that's the case, I'm sure you're a perfectly unbiased judge with the highest credentials. My mistake. Also, you're using the word "subjectively" wrong.

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:31 AM
  #71
LiquidSnake
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Kane by a mile.

It's not even remotely close. There isnt a leaf that is worth Kane 1 for 1.

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:34 AM
  #72
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It's a bad trade for Winnipeg. They can force Kane to play there for the next 6 years. Phil Kessel would almost certainly abandon ship at the end of next year.

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:43 AM
  #73
Jerkini
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Kane by a mile.

It's not even remotely close. There isnt a leaf that is worth Kane 1 for 1.
Really? Because statistically it's very close.

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:47 AM
  #74
BayStBullies
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Really? Because statistically it's very close.
It's not worth a response; he's one of those Vancouver fans refreshing the page the whole weekend; waiting for a Leafs thread. Just so he can not provide anything of value; but post the usual: "Leafs have to add" comment.

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Old
03-09-2013, 03:53 AM
  #75
LiquidSnake
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Really? Because statistically it's very close.
In what? Total points?

Kane has more goals, is better defensively and hits. As well, he can hold his own in a fight and is a power forward in the making.

Kane already has a 30 goal season under his belt and will only improve.

The only people who would take Kessel are Leaf fans.

Your GM wouldnt hesitate to make that trade.

The Jets on the other hand would never make that trade.

30 goal power forward vs 37 goal soft as a pillow forward?

Ya, it's not close. Kane.

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