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Blackhawks name Dudley assistant GM

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Old
07-24-2006, 11:36 AM
  #1
Stuy
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Blackhawks name Dudley assistant GM

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=172203&hubname=nhl

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07-24-2006, 11:56 AM
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Can it get any worse for Hawks?

Just wait and see Hawks sign Mathieu Biron

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07-24-2006, 12:39 PM
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Don't listen to Mogo - he's always mr. negativity.

could be a good move for the hawks as long as he doesn't get much input on who to put on the NHL squad. he has an eye for talent. put him in charge of the draft and he should be fine..

most panther fans don't like him because he falls in love with "projects" as a general manager. all fans remember are the bad ones - like mathieu biron, kristian kudroc, etc. he did get some very good "projects" for us, though, although they never seem to remember that. he traded sven butenschon for juraj kolnik...kolnik's evolved into an excellent two-way third liner capable of 20 goals a year. jason weimer for branislav mezei - if mezei could stay healthy he'd probably be one of the better shutdown defensmen in the nhl - ala willie mitchell. valeri bure (he was strictly a salary dump at the time, too, which makes the deal far more impressive now) for mike van ryn. van ryn was toiling in st. louis minor league club, was having a horrible year. needless to say, he's an excellent two-way defensman now.

he traded for matt cullen, who didn't work out here, but you saw what he's capable of in carolina. he traded for mikael samuelsson - didn't do anything here, but you saw what he's capable of with detroit. when he was with tampa, he traded for boyle, signed st.louis, etc, etc. ALL of these moves were "projects".

i'm sure there are other good ones...and bad ones. his problem was it seemed our entire roster consisted of projects which always led to team failure at the NHL level. hopefully tallon can keep him clear of getting obsessed with that and it could work out well for you guys, he really does have an excellent eye for talent.

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07-24-2006, 12:42 PM
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07-24-2006, 12:53 PM
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Agreeing with TKF37.

When Dudley was here with us I really liked some of the moves he made as he does make a great evaluator of talent. Just didn't like him when he was in charge of the entire franchise. Assistant GM would be ideal for him.

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07-24-2006, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by IceKatsRHot View Post
Agreeing with TKF37.

When Dudley was here with us I really liked some of the moves he made as he does make a great evaluator of talent. Just didn't like him when he was in charge of the entire franchise. Assistant GM would be ideal for him.
The main problem though is this means that's he's one step from becoming the GM, which is a VERY bad thing as a Hawks fan.

Wasn't it Dudley that was behind the Svivtov & Alexeev drafts in TB? It seems like he's had a BUNCH of early draft picks (which the Hawks are guaranteed to have) and hasn't done very well with them.

Didn't he get canned in TB because he was going to trade Lecavalier?

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07-24-2006, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Wasn't it Dudley that was behind the Svivtov & Alexeev drafts in TB? It seems like he's had a BUNCH of early draft picks (which the Hawks are guaranteed to have) and hasn't done very well with them.

Didn't he get canned in TB because he was going to trade Lecavalier?
Yes and yes.

The guys out to lunch.

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07-25-2006, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
The main problem though is this means that's he's one step from becoming the GM, which is a VERY bad thing as a Hawks fan.
Yes, yes it is. A ton of Panther fans are in love with the guy still for whatever reason, but if I were a Hawks fan, I'd be afraid, VERY afraid.

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Wasn't it Dudley that was behind the Svivtov & Alexeev drafts in TB? It seems like he's had a BUNCH of early draft picks (which the Hawks are guaranteed to have) and hasn't done very well with them.
Yes, he handled basically 3 drafts for Tampa, 99 - 01 (Lists here). Just off the top of my head, maybe 5 of those guys have touched NHL ice, and fewer than that have played over 10 games. When you look at the large # of picks he had there, it's not exactly a good track record. IMO, he didn't take character into account whatsoever, hence we got guys like Keefe (he's a David Frost client, 'nuff said) and Alexeev (no work ethic). I hope for your sakes that has changed. I can't even believe you all trusted him as a scout, his supposed drafting prowess is VERY overrated.

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Didn't he get canned in TB because he was going to trade Lecavalier?
That was more of the straw that broke the camel's back. He was already falling out of favor due to trading for the headcase Zdeno Ciger and wanting to overpay for Dan Boyle by offering Cory Sarich. That trade was also stopped and Boyle was acquired for a very low draft pick. He had also overcommitted payroll to a bunch of 2nd rate guys and the locker room could've had a revolving door on it. For every decent move he made in Tampa (there were a few, and luck or good timing had more to do with most of them than he did) he made 10 bad ones.

We're kinda hoping we can maybe dump Alexeev off on you guys now though!

Sorry to be longwinded and I hope this doesn't start Dudley War #1,205 between Tampa and Florida fans. Good luck to the Hawks, and I think Khabibulin will have a bounce back season for you!

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07-25-2006, 03:34 PM
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I hate the NHL boys club

where you can get fired one place for doing a horrible job, and then just be rehired by some friend at another team, and always have a job in the league regardless of performance

must be nice

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07-25-2006, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sotnos View Post
Yes, yes it is. A ton of Panther fans are in love with the guy still for whatever reason, but if I were a Hawks fan, I'd be afraid, VERY afraid.


Yes, he handled basically 3 drafts for Tampa, 99 - 01 (Lists here). Just off the top of my head, maybe 5 of those guys have touched NHL ice, and fewer than that have played over 10 games. When you look at the large # of picks he had there, it's not exactly a good track record. IMO, he didn't take character into account whatsoever, hence we got guys like Keefe (he's a David Frost client, 'nuff said) and Alexeev (no work ethic). I hope for your sakes that has changed. I can't even believe you all trusted him as a scout, his supposed drafting prowess is VERY overrated.


That was more of the straw that broke the camel's back. He was already falling out of favor due to trading for the headcase Zdeno Ciger and wanting to overpay for Dan Boyle by offering Cory Sarich. That trade was also stopped and Boyle was acquired for a very low draft pick. He had also overcommitted payroll to a bunch of 2nd rate guys and the locker room could've had a revolving door on it. For every decent move he made in Tampa (there were a few, and luck or good timing had more to do with most of them than he did) he made 10 bad ones.

We're kinda hoping we can maybe dump Alexeev off on you guys now though!

Sorry to be longwinded and I hope this doesn't start Dudley War #1,205 between Tampa and Florida fans. Good luck to the Hawks, and I think Khabibulin will have a bounce back season for you!


You don't know why Florida fans trusted him as a scout? Probably because.....he wasn't?

I really get tired of folks that blame draft picks solely on general managers. As was displayed by Bob Clarke this past draft when he had no clue who the first pick for the Flyers was, GM's have little to do with the picks. Many of the picks in those years were Russian....you seriously think Dudley spent the entire year in Russia scouting them? Goertzen was the head scout, and Goertzen made the picks.

You seem to like to take speculation as truths. If indeed Dudley "tried" to trade Sarich for Dan Boyle...how exactly is that a downgrade?

You talk as if Dudley's the only GM to make a quesationable trade - what did it cost him for Ciger ...Matt Barnaby...wow!!! Worst trade ever.

It's easy to simply state that for every good move he made (he made a few including St. Louis, Tortorella, Boyle, Khabibulin, Taylor, Andreychuk, Pratt, Modin) he made ten bad ones. I have listed eight positive moves; you have listed one poor one. Can you name 79 others?

I'm by no means a Dudley backer; I'm a Hab fan, but Dudley being named an assistant GM of a team after being GM of three different organizations is IMO a solid pickup for Chicago. I don't think he did a horrible job in Florida, Tampa or Ottawa; he inbherited poor teams and wasn't given long to turn them around. Fact is Ottawa and Tampa became good soon after he left; not just a coincidence that a lot of the key parts were his. Does Tampa win a Cup without the above listed players? Not a chance.

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07-25-2006, 06:34 PM
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You don't know why Florida fans trusted him as a scout? Probably because.....he wasn't?
Huh? Where did I say that? I'm on the Chicago board, therefore I'm addressing Chicago fans, it's not that difficult, honestly. Unless I'm mistaken, he's been a Chicago scout for a year or two.

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You seem to like to take speculation as truths. If indeed Dudley "tried" to trade Sarich for Dan Boyle...how exactly is that a downgrade?
You're kidding right? Tampa ended up getting Boyle for a 5th round pick, but it would have been just as good to trade Sarich + for him?!

I'm not speculating either, all this stuff was documented in an ESPN Magazine article a few years ago. They went into some detail as to why Dudley got fired, because it wasn't all about Lecavalier.

Quote:
It's easy to simply state that for every good move he made (he made a few including St. Louis, Tortorella, Boyle, Khabibulin, Taylor, Andreychuk, Pratt, Modin) he made ten bad ones. I have listed eight positive moves; you have listed one poor one. Can you name 79 others?
Don't tempt me. I have a Media Guide here listing all his gazillion trades, so I probably could! He sent off Nils Ekman (and Freadrich) to get Tim Taylor, that was a good deal?! Scratch that one off the list. Like I said, a lot of his "good" deals included a lot of luck and/or good timing. You're trying to tell me that he saw anything in St. Louis besides a really cheap warm body? Khabibulin only came here because a deal between Phoenix and the Rangers fell through. Etc., etc.

If you're not a Panthers fan, then I really have no idea what your fascination with Dudley might be based on, but I doubt the Chicago fans want to read some big argument about your hero.

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07-25-2006, 07:47 PM
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You can tell that most of this discussion is from non-hawk fans.

Folks, we've had the same two dunderheads at the top for 40 years Pulford/Wirtz. They have screwed the team, the city, the fanbase, and the previous teams.

We like nothing more than fresh blood, new perspectives, and people who come from outside the "family".

This is a positive move.

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07-25-2006, 08:44 PM
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I despise dudley with a passion. I'm waiting for the day he leaves just like i did with craig anderson. The sooner the better.

The good thing about him being hired is he'll have to be fired eventually. Counting the days.......

I'm suprised mathieu biron hasn't been signed yet.

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07-25-2006, 09:35 PM
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Huh? Where did I say that? I'm on the Chicago board, therefore I'm addressing Chicago fans, it's not that difficult, honestly. Unless I'm mistaken, he's been a Chicago scout for a year or two.


You're kidding right? Tampa ended up getting Boyle for a 5th round pick, but it would have been just as good to trade Sarich + for him?!

Reading comprehension not a strong point? I said Boyle is better than Sarich so even if he had been traded for Sarich, which is pure speculation from an ESPN reporter, it would still have been a decent deal.

I'm not speculating either, all this stuff was documented in an ESPN Magazine article a few years ago. They went into some detail as to why Dudley got fired, because it wasn't all about Lecavalier.

Oh - well it must be gospel. A reporter speculating is no more credible than a HF poster speculating.


Don't tempt me. I have a Media Guide here listing all his gazillion trades, so I probably could! He sent off Nils Ekman (and Freadrich) to get Tim Taylor, that was a good deal?! Scratch that one off the list. Like I said, a lot of his "good" deals included a lot of luck and/or good timing. You're trying to tell me that he saw anything in St. Louis besides a really cheap warm body? Khabibulin only came here because a deal between Phoenix and the Rangers fell through. Etc., etc.

If you're not a Panthers fan, then I really have no idea what your fascination with Dudley might be based on, but I doubt the Chicago fans want to read some big argument about your hero.

Again you're speculating - this time about Khabibulin. What are you - a fly on the wall of Tampa Bay's GM office? So when Dudley made a good deal...it was still a screwup because he could have done better, or he was lucky? Yeah; you sound like you treated Dudley's tenure pretty fairly.

I would have traded Freadriich and Ekman for Taylor back when he did, and Taylor was an important part of the Cup team. Ask San Jose fans what they think about Ekman being replaced by Bell; most of them won't miss his soft, inconsistent play. Taylor was an important piece of the puzzle, just as Andreychuck was. Ekman wouldn't have been a top four winger on the Lightning's Cup winning team, nor would he have fit on the checking line. Taylor fit a checking role perfectly.


I know Dudley from his term in Ottawa because I lived near there, and from Florida because I know some of the scouts who worked there during Dudley's reign. I'm a Hab fan No fascination with him - just someone with an unbiased view, unlike yours.

Here is a recap on most of his major moves from a Tampa blog from a google search:

October 1999 — In a move that Lightning fans rejoice in remembering, Cory Cross was traded (along with a 7th round pick) to the Toronto Maple Leafs in return for a struggling left wing by the name of Fredrik Modin. Cross was and is basically a #7 D-man who had served in the top defensive pairing on the Lightning defense during his tenure. Modin – free of the pressure to perform in Toronto – blossomed into a mainstay power forward and a leader on and off the ice.

March 2000 — Center Chris Gratton, who had been re-acquired from Philadelphia a year earlier by Jacques Demers, is traded to the Buffalo Sabres for Wayne Primeau, Brian Holzinger and a young defensive prospect named Cory Sarich. Sarich has become a mainstay in the defensive zone. Some like to crap on Cory for his mistakes but he has grown into the role and will only improve with time.

2000 Off Season — Rick Dudley takes a chance on a former Hobby Baker finalist who had been playing on the lower lines for the Calgary Flames. Martin St. Louis had been changed from an offensive threat to a checking-line player who rarely saw ice time with the Flames. This would change greatly with the Lightning as St. Louis was allowed to regain his scoring touch and has become the mighty-mite superstar of the NHL.

January 2001 – Steve Ludzik, who had taken several Detroit Viper IHL teams to the Turner Cup but was not having success at the NHL level, was fired and assistant John Tortorella promoted to the rank of Head Coach. It would be one season before this move would pay dividends, as the Lightning would be returning to the playoffs under Tortorella’s leadership and ultimately a Stanley Cup. Tortorella is credited with vastly improving Vincent Lecavalier’s game (along with almost running Vinny out of town in 2001-02.)

March 2001 — In the move that woke up Lightning fans and gave birth to hope in Tampa Bay, Rick Dudley sends defenceman Paul Mara, forward Mike Johnson, Ruslan Zainullin, and a 2nd round draft pick in 2001 Entry Draft for defensiveman Stanislav Neckar and the rights to goaltender Nikolai Khabibulin who is later signed to a lump sum contract. Khabibulin had not played in nearly 2 seasons in total and Dudley was taking a definite risk at the time – but it had paid off in the end. Khabibulin played one game during the 2000-01 season before coming back full-on in 2001-02 and dominating mercilessly at both the NHL level and during Olympic play at the Salt Lake City games. Finally the Lightning had a backstop on par to once-great Darren Puppa and fans now had the legit belief there was a commitment to winning.

Neckar would later leave the team and be re-acquired at the 2004 trade deadline.

2001 Entry Draft — Tampa Bay traded a 6th round selection to the Colorado Avalanche for Nolan Pratt.

2000-2001 Off Season — Lacking a center that is strong with face offs, Rick Dudley sends forward Nils Ekman and Enforcer Kyle Feadrich to the New York Rangers in return for the services of veteran center Tim Taylor. Another reason for Taylor’s acquisition was due to his leadership abilities.

The Lightning’s young nucleus sorely lacked veteran guidance and Taylor would help solidify the attitude needed to become a contender, but probably not as much as Dave Andreychuk. A then-18 year NHL Veteran who had made several runs for Lord’s Stanley’s cup but never once won it, a gritty forward and needed strength on the Power Play, was signed to further provide leadership, guidance and maturity to the Lightning roster. Andreychuk, would be named captain soon after then-captain Vincent Lecavalier returned from a contract dispute.

January 2002 — Dan Boyle is acquired from the Florida Panthers for a 5th round pick. Boyle is undersized for a defenceman and languishing in Mike Keenan’s doghouse. Keenan has expressed his displeasure with having Boyle at all and this fuels the fire in Boyle after he escapes from Iron Mike’s clutches. Boyle has proven to be a very formidable offensive defensiveman with speed and skill to match his scoring touch. Keenan will never regret, and Dan Boyle will never forget…

March 2002 — Goalie Kevin Weekes – a solid backstop but lacking playing time with Nikolai Khabibulin as the #1 goalie for Tampa Bay – is traded to division rival Carolina for RW Shane Willis and C Chris Dingman. Dingman played a limited yet solid role on the Tampa Bay 4th line while Willis has played the role of depth more than not for TB.
=====================================

You think those were horrible moves? I see them being important components of what soon became a Stanley Cup champion. He gave up some talent, but obtained important pieces.

Still wondering about those gazillion bad moves. From what I gather you're talking out of your backside, and for whatever reason have a vendetta against Dudley.

As far as having the audacity to ever want to deal a moping Vinny Lecavalier....Has Vinny Lecavalier ever been a top ten player for a season? Not in my mind; a decent player in the second tier of NHL stars, but not as of yet a dominating presence save for a couple of playoff games and a few regular season stretches. Not a top ten scorer, not always motivated, average in his own end on occasions. So if Vinny had been traded for...say....Spezza, Hossa and Chara at the 2001 draft....do you not think Tampa Bay wouldn't have been competitive over the past five seasons? Vinny would have snatched BIG returns in 2001.

Possible 2003-04 lineup as opposed to the Cup winning squad

Modin Richards St. Louis
Stillman Spezza Hossa
Fedotenko Andreychuk Dingman
Clymer Taylor Roy

Kubina Sydor
Chara Boyle
Cullimore Sarich
Lukowich

Khabibulin

Not sure about you, but that team would have been a serious contender right up until this offseason, when something would have had to give. Still - I like that team better than the Cup winning one.

Chicago - be happy that you're getting a well-connected ex GM with an outside opinion as you say. This is nothing but a positive sign for the franchise along with the improved drafting.

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07-25-2006, 09:59 PM
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This was written by a dudley hater that is a Tampa fan and works for the Lightning.

"I wrote this a year and a half ago for some reason that escapes me now:

Former Sens GM, former Lightning GM, former Panthers GM - guy who can't hold a prospect for more than three years without getting itchy fingers and trading him away for...wait for it...even more prospects. Guy makes more trades in one year that most teams do in five, team is in a constant state of rebuilding, Dudley is always fired after about 3-5 years. Dudley was the guy who was gonna move Vincent Lecavalier - was fired from Tampa. Dudley was the guy who was gonna move Bouwmeester and/or Luongo, fired from Florida. Currently director of something-or-other with the Chicago Blackhawks, Chicago fans pray that he doesn't move to an asst. GM position.

His "best" things would include the Khabibulin deal - he accomplished that by riding to Los Angeles from Phoenix with the GM from Phoenix and if I had to ride in a car for that long with Dudley I'd make the deal as well. Some credit him for bringing in St. Louis, and while he did do that, he brought in four or five young smallish forwards off of waivers or minor deals, and he got one out of five right.

I can't back this up, so don't ever quote me on it, but the deal on the table that got him fired was Antropov, Hoglund and a Toronto first (20-30) for Lecavalier and a Lightning 3rd (61-70). There was something else swirling around involving Bonk and Philips, but I've never heard that straight from the horse's mouth, so I don't know if it's true."

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07-26-2006, 06:08 AM
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This was written by a dudley hater that is a Tampa fan and works for the Lightning.

"I wrote this a year and a half ago for some reason that escapes me now:

Former Sens GM, former Lightning GM, former Panthers GM - guy who can't hold a prospect for more than three years without getting itchy fingers and trading him away for...wait for it...even more prospects. Guy makes more trades in one year that most teams do in five, team is in a constant state of rebuilding, Dudley is always fired after about 3-5 years. Dudley was the guy who was gonna move Vincent Lecavalier - was fired from Tampa. Dudley was the guy who was gonna move Bouwmeester and/or Luongo, fired from Florida. Currently director of something-or-other with the Chicago Blackhawks, Chicago fans pray that he doesn't move to an asst. GM position.

His "best" things would include the Khabibulin deal - he accomplished that by riding to Los Angeles from Phoenix with the GM from Phoenix and if I had to ride in a car for that long with Dudley I'd make the deal as well. Some credit him for bringing in St. Louis, and while he did do that, he brought in four or five young smallish forwards off of waivers or minor deals, and he got one out of five right.

I can't back this up, so don't ever quote me on it, but the deal on the table that got him fired was Antropov, Hoglund and a Toronto first (20-30) for Lecavalier and a Lightning 3rd (61-70). There was something else swirling around involving Bonk and Philips, but I've never heard that straight from the horse's mouth, so I don't know if it's true."
Interesting, and very true. As you can see, he does have his supporters who follow him like he's a cult leader. I will never understand it.

I can back up all my points with evidence unlike what the Dudley-lover is claiming, but no need to bore you guys, if you're that interested PM me. Most of you seem to get the picture. There's a reason the guy has a fairly short tenure everywhere he goes.

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07-26-2006, 06:31 AM
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Interesting, and very true. As you can see, he does have his supporters who follow him like he's a cult leader. I will never understand it.

I can back up all my points with evidence unlike what the Dudley-lover is claiming, but no need to bore you guys, if you're that interested PM me. Most of you seem to get the picture. There's a reason the guy has a fairly short tenure everywhere he goes.

Funny thing happened on the way to this debate - you have decided to ignore the facts and zero in once again on an opinion and extremely unsubstantiated speculation.

why didn't you respond to my post? Do facts trouble you?

dudley left his Ottawa position BTW; yet another fact you obviously care to ignore. You instead like to use "speculation" in your criticism of Dudley - he almost traded Bouwmeester and Lecavalier.....almost!!

Buddy in his opinionated article states that he can't "back up" his claims, and you pipe in with "Interesting, and very true."

Hossa, Heatley, Pronger, and a host of others have been traded in the past couple fo years. i didn't see the world come to an end.

So why is it always viewed as a bad thing that Vinny Lecavalier was apparently shopped around, especially when his attitude sucked? Did I miss something and he is a God ?

Vinny - who was supposed to be the second coming of Jean Beliveau - has a whopping 78-point season to his credit. Big freeking deal. Vinny would have fetched Dudley a small country in 2000-2001, and if you ask me should have been delt when his value was at its highest. Most overrated player in the league by far, and way overpaid.

I suppose Montreal made a terrible move hiring Pierre Gauther as its assistant GM as well because he had short GM tenures elsewhere. Funny Hab fans aren't whining about that - possibly because they don't have sheep feces for brains.

If anything I dislike Dudley - Bryan Murray is my cousin and they both got into a huge dustup at the Hull rookie tournament a few year back. Bryan's nephew Tim Murray was head scout in Florida for two years when Dudley was there, and I've heard more than a couple stories about Dudley that make him less than a favourite in my books on a personal level. When Dudley was the GM in Tampa I was publishing a hockey newspaper, and followed the league quite closely.

Unlike yourself however; I can still look at someone objectively, and with a fair assessment no matter my personal feelings going in.

You are a joke, and I won't be bothering with this post again. I bet you're being PMed like crazy by Chicago fans looking for the "facts."


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07-26-2006, 07:53 AM
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Holee *****. If(When) the Hawks don't make the playoffs this year, either Tallon or Yawney is gone. If it's Tallon, we've got our next GM.

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07-26-2006, 08:57 AM
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Holee *****. If(When) the Hawks don't make the playoffs this year, either Tallon or Yawney is gone. If it's Tallon, we've got our next GM.
Then you'll REALLY have a problem. I hope it doesn't come to that, I'd think that Tallon will be given more of a chance to turn things around, right?

Anyway, sorry I seem to have attracted a long-winded Dudley disciple and/or relative with my posts, I dunno why he's getting so hysterical though it is pretty amusing. Most of you all have probably seen me around and know that I'm not one to make things up, I just wanted to address some of the people who posted before me that want to give you the sunshine and roses "Dudley alone built Tampa and he is a misunderstood god" BS. All I have to say is - Adrian Aucoin & Kharitonov to the Isles for Mathieu Biron & a 2nd. He also maneuvered to get Biron to the Panthers when Tampa later put him in the waiver draft - this is the kind of player he covets if that gives you any indication! Mathieu fricken' Biron

Good luck for a good season guys

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