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NYT: Bargaining for Rights in Exchange for NHL in Olympics (UPD: Daly in Sochi)

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Old
03-09-2013, 05:29 AM
  #226
Mr Writer
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Exactly. If the NHL were serious about pulling out of the Olympics, they would be pressuring the IIHF (as the Russians are already doing) to move the World Championships to February, when they would shut down for 2 weeks to allow NHLers to participate, which would completely defeat the whole purpose of withdrawing from the Olympics.

Bringing back the World Cup is simply a bluffing tactic. The World Cup failed for a reason, and the NHL has every vested interest in continuing to send players to the Olympics as they obviously see a benefit in international competition - especially a stage as big as the Olympics which could never be replicated.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever....a completely ass-backwards statement.

NHL "We are opposed to shutting down our league once every 4 years as we see very little, practically no benefit to our league, so lets withdraw from that Olympic 1 in four year option so we can shut down annually for the World Championships." Because the NHL is not actively negotiating for the WHC option doesn't mean you can infer it is bluffing on its Olympic rhetoric, one doesn't equal the other.

The KHL wants the World Championships moved to February because they want a longer more NHL style schedule to their league, but don't want to negatively impact Team Russia at the World Championship...and you'll think the suits in NY City will dance to Medvedev's tune? Laughable.


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Old
03-09-2013, 06:36 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Exactly. If the NHL were serious about pulling out of the Olympics, they would be pressuring the IIHF (as the Russians are already doing) to move the World Championships to February, when they would shut down for 2 weeks to allow NHLers to participate, which would completely defeat the whole purpose of withdrawing from the Olympics.

Bringing back the World Cup is simply a bluffing tactic. The World Cup failed for a reason, and the NHL has every vested interest in continuing to send players to the Olympics as they obviously see a benefit in international competition - especially a stage as big as the Olympics which could never be replicated.
HA! Right, the NHL is going to shut down for the World Championships. That is funny.

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03-09-2013, 06:40 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
This argument is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin, and sadly people keep repeating this garbage.

If you don't think non-Olympic swimming events featuring Michael Phelps or track events featuring Usain Bolt didn't receive far more attention than they would have otherwise, you are oblivious. People like stories and they like heroes. If an American falls in love with Ryan Miller's performance at the Olympics, and they figure out they can watch him practically every night in the NHL, why wouldn't they? (in fact, I know numerous people personally who did just that)
Actually he is 100% right. Without looking it up, can you tell me when and where the 2013 Gymnastics World Championships will be held this year? Track or Swimming World Championships? Can you name one event where Phelps or Bolt participated between the 2008 and 2012 summer olympics? How'd they do at those events?

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03-09-2013, 06:52 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Actually he is 100% right. Without looking it up, can you tell me when and where the 2013 Gymnastics World Championships will be held this year? Track or Swimming World Championships? Can you name one event where Phelps or Bolt participated between the 2008 and 2012 summer olympics? How'd they do at those events?
IAAF World Championship are actually big events globally, and get much bigger ratings than any hockey event outside of the Olympics. This year's Worlds are held in Moscow, it was hard not to forget because the commentators on the Finnish national broadcasting corporation's Olympic broadcast mentioned it so many times (they have the rights to both events).

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03-09-2013, 07:07 AM
  #230
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IAAF World Championship are actually big events globally, and get much bigger ratings than any hockey event outside of the Olympics. This year's Worlds are held in Moscow, it was hard not to forget because the commentators on the Finnish national broadcasting corporation's Olympic broadcast mentioned it so many times (they have the rights to both events).
How many people on this site do you think know that? How many people in the US do you think would even know when/if they are shown on tv? Point is, those sports are the focus for 2 weeks every four years and forgotten/ignored the rest of the time.

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03-09-2013, 07:17 AM
  #231
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I don't suppose anyone has the US tv ratings(I think it was on ESPN) for the 2004 World Cup final?
Not sure on ratings, but on this page they have the attendance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_World_Cup_of_Hockey

Russia-Slovakia drew over 18000 IN toronto. The only game in Europe that sold-out was Sweden-Czech Republic. Finland-Sweden came close. Even the quarters held in Europe didn't sell-out.

Gee, I wonder why the NHL and NHLPA would prefer to host a tourney in NA?

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03-09-2013, 09:09 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Not sure on ratings, but on this page they have the attendance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_World_Cup_of_Hockey

Russia-Slovakia drew over 18000 IN toronto. The only game in Europe that sold-out was Sweden-Czech Republic. Finland-Sweden came close. Even the quarters held in Europe didn't sell-out.

Gee, I wonder why the NHL and NHLPA would prefer to host a tourney in NA?
Ticket packages(in Canada)? And from what I remember the ticket prices for Finland's games were even bigger than last year's Worlds so it's no wonder the games didn't sell out. Not forgetting of course the awful time of year. The tournament also had difficulties finding a tv broadcaster.

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03-09-2013, 09:57 AM
  #233
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For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?

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03-09-2013, 10:00 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?
Yes, the same NHL/NHLPA who just spent over 6 months fighting over couple of millions. And the fans/consumers would never see any benefit of that profit. But who cares if the general public is less exposed to hockey (via the Olympics) as long as the NHL/NHLPA makes money...

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03-09-2013, 10:02 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?

I don't care about the Olympics. I think it's a huge money grab.

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03-09-2013, 10:10 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't care about the Olympics. I think it's a huge money grab.
repeated

In all common sense, the IOC can get away with free labor when it was an event for amateurs. They've now ditched amateurism and have gone toward professionals in all sports, and if there are not pros that are big stars participating, they have actually sought to ditch the sport. All that said, since they now use professionals widely across most sports, I don't understand the argument they can use their labor for free other than it suits their checkbook. Ronda Rousey, now a big star in the UFC, was one of the U.S.' best ever judo participants. She won a bronze medal in 2008 in her weight class. Her own words, "I got a handshake saying thank you and a check for $10000. I thought 'it cost me a lot more than $10000 to win this medal'." And the U.S. Olympic Committee is one of the richest if not the richest Olympic committee in the world. So she left judo to do MMA and U.S. Judo wanted nothing to deal with her afterward.

$10000 to be 3rd-best in the world. If you consider the time she spent over 4 years training for it, say 25 hours a week 50 weeks a year. That's 5000 hours over 4 years, so she makes two dollars per hour to be 3rd-best in the world. And that doesn't account for her paying for coaches and facilities.


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03-09-2013, 10:23 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't care about the Olympics. I think it's a huge money grab.
But to whom? As you've yourself linked, an overwhelming majority of the revenue goes to the games organizers (which seems to getting more and more expensive the days) and the national Olympic committees while the IOC keeps only 8% and it's not like they're a small organization.

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03-09-2013, 10:27 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by rj View Post
repeated

In all common sense, the IOC can get away with free labor when it was an event for amateurs. They've now ditched amateurism and have gone toward professionals in all sports, and if there are not pros that are big stars participating, they have actually sought to ditch the sport. All that said, since they now use professionals widely across most sports, I don't understand the argument they can use their labor for free other than it suits their checkbook. Ronda Rousey, now a big star in the UFC, was one of the U.S.' best ever judo participants. She won a bronze medal in 2008 in her weight class. Her own words, "I got a handshake saying thank you and a check for $10000. I thought 'it cost me a lot more than $10000 to win this medal'." And the U.S. Olympic Committee is one of the richest if not the richest Olympic committee in the world. So she left judo to do MMA and U.S. Judo wanted nothing to deal with her afterward.

$10000 to be 3rd-best in the world. If you consider the time she spent over 4 years training for it, say 25 hours a week 50 weeks a year. That's 5000 hours over 4 years, so she makes two dollars per hour to be 3rd-best in the world. And that doesn't account for her paying for coaches and facilities.
Well isn't that more a problem for the sports itself? While one of the most popular in the world when it comes to people participating in it, it's not exactly on tv or people's minds ie. it's not a very good or popular tv sport.

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03-09-2013, 10:57 AM
  #239
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But to whom? As you've yourself linked, an overwhelming majority of the revenue goes to the games organizers (which seems to getting more and more expensive the days) and the national Olympic committees while the IOC keeps only 8% and it's not like they're a small organization.

Everyone in on the gravy train, Juss.

8% to a bunch of administrators basically is a lot of money. They get cities to bankrupt their coffers to build the venues and host the events. The amateur athletes get some support, but you always read about parents mortgaging their homes or working 2-3 jobs to pay for all the training. Everyone takes a cut along the way. Now that they have moved to allowing professional athletes, the leagues pay for that lifestyle obviously, but the IOC can sell TV rights in countries worldwide to support the system--- which seems to mainly benefit the bureaucrats at each step of the way.


However, just to be clear on my position. If I were to support some global celebration of athleticism and sport, I'd rather it be set up along non-nationalistic lines. I don't care which country the best figure skater ultimately comes from. If you enjoy a sport or performance, you want to see the best. It gets a bit trickier with teams sports in how you'd set the ideal up, but let's not overlook nor dismiss how concentrated the talent is for the biggest countries of a particular sport. Watching men's basketball in the Summer Games is almost laughable, and certainly the NBA'ers don't care that much. It's just a fun outing for them, and most stay in fancy hotels, not the village.

(Not that I think they NEED to stay at the village, but it indicates the mentality afoot, imho.)

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03-09-2013, 12:48 PM
  #240
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Everyone in on the gravy train, Juss.

8% to a bunch of administrators basically is a lot of money. They get cities to bankrupt their coffers to build the venues and host the events. The amateur athletes get some support, but you always read about parents mortgaging their homes or working 2-3 jobs to pay for all the training. Everyone takes a cut along the way. Now that they have moved to allowing professional athletes, the leagues pay for that lifestyle obviously, but the IOC can sell TV rights in countries worldwide to support the system--- which seems to mainly benefit the bureaucrats at each step of the way.
The money the national Olympic committees pay to athletes tends to fall in favor of the more popular disciplines and the ones that require a lot of funding. E.g. The Finnish summer athletes the money goes to coaches salaries, the whole "support team" and especially training camps abroad in warmer climates. Though ironically these athletes (track and field) have been the least successful in recent years and it's been sports like shooting, archery and last year wind surfing that's brought the medals and they get very little funding from the Olympic Committee.

In general the number of "officials" or bureaucrats is alarmingly large in sports federations, so it's no wonder the money doesn't go fully in intended targets. I think in London there were more "team officials" than athletes in Finland's opening ceremony squad. But greed or money grabbing isn't to blame here.

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03-09-2013, 02:58 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?
Just to clarify, I'm not against the Olympics. I love the Olympics. I just don't want the NHL in the Olympics. The federations can enter teams without NHLers in the Olympics and get some money that way. But the only reason I care even slightly about the federations is that they supply players to the NHL.

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03-09-2013, 08:29 PM
  #242
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On the hot stove they mentioned Daly will be heading to Sochi tomorrow and Bettman to follow on Monday. Now that realignment is all but in the books, they're hoping to finish with the Olympics in short order.

Perhaps another check of the list list the week?

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03-09-2013, 08:43 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
The money the national Olympic committees pay to athletes tends to fall in favor of the more popular disciplines and the ones that require a lot of funding. E.g. The Finnish summer athletes the money goes to coaches salaries, the whole "support team" and especially training camps abroad in warmer climates. Though ironically these athletes (track and field) have been the least successful in recent years and it's been sports like shooting, archery and last year wind surfing that's brought the medals and they get very little funding from the Olympic Committee.

In general the number of "officials" or bureaucrats is alarmingly large in sports federations, so it's no wonder the money doesn't go fully in intended targets. I think in London there were more "team officials" than athletes in Finland's opening ceremony squad. But greed or money grabbing isn't to blame here.
I disagree.

I can't put together the traditional amateur ethos of the Olympics with the professional athletes they use now as their way of staying relevant, paying nothing to the organizations those athletes are in or the athletes themselves, the mega sponsorship dollars that flows into the IOC, the massive chemicalization the athletes in some sports do that everyone just conveniently ignores for 2 weeks (cough*athletics*cough), how cities bankrupt themselves to host the event building all this infrastructure that in a lot of cases will never be used again, just for a 2-week long binge drinking party while the bribery and kickbacks were once as bad as what FIFA is now that the IOC for once in their existance carried out reforms. Look at the current state of Greece, wouldn't it have been better for them to have never hosted in 2004? And now you as a Finnish taxpayer are helping pay for their largesse that they could not afford, all so they could watch some guys do the steeplechase who based on your post said shouldn't be paid anything because their sport is not popular.


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03-09-2013, 10:24 PM
  #244
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I disagree.

I can't put together the traditional amateur ethos of the Olympics with the professional athletes they use now as their way of staying relevant, paying nothing to the organizations those athletes are in or the athletes themselves, the mega sponsorship dollars that flows into the IOC, the massive chemicalization the athletes in some sports do that everyone just conveniently ignores for 2 weeks (cough*athletics*cough), how cities bankrupt themselves to host the event building all this infrastructure that in a lot of cases will never be used again, just for a 2-week long binge drinking party while the bribery and kickbacks were once as bad as what FIFA is now that the IOC for once in their existance carried out reforms. Look at the current state of Greece, wouldn't it have been better for them to have never hosted in 2004? And now you as a Finnish taxpayer are helping pay for their largesse that they could not afford, all so they could watch some guys do the steeplechase who based on your post said shouldn't be paid anything because their sport is not popular.
I ain't paying much in taxes. Part time worker for the mail service and a very low tax percentage due to not being in the church.

No, I said Finnish OC doesn't exactly get much in return but that is more a an issue with the quality of trainers, because Finland has fallen far behind in that area. And why mention steeplechase? Our last athletics gold medal (2006 European Championships) came from that event.

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03-10-2013, 05:26 AM
  #245
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Because the NHL is not actively negotiating for the WHC option doesn't mean you can infer it is bluffing on its Olympic rhetoric, one doesn't equal the other.
Actually it does. Otherwise you believe the NHL doesn't think there is any benefit to any international competition at all, which is quite foolish. Though even if they were seriously considering an alternative to the Olympics, it still doesn't change the fact that the Olympics offers far more than any alternative ever could.

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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
HA! Right, the NHL is going to shut down for the World Championships. That is funny.
Exactly, hence why the anti-Olympic rhetoric is a bluff. Glad you got my point. The NHL obviously sees value in participating in international competition, especially in the world's biggest hockey event. No other event could possibly replicate the Olympics and that is why the NHL will continue to release players to them for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Actually he is 100% right. Without looking it up, can you tell me when and where the 2013 Gymnastics World Championships will be held this year? Track or Swimming World Championships? Can you name one event where Phelps or Bolt participated between the 2008 and 2012 summer olympics? How'd they do at those events?
Me personally? No. I'm not sure how that is relevant though. I'm not sure how you can seriously doubt that Phelps and Bolt didn't bring more attention to the non-Olympic competitions they participated in due to the Olympic brand that made them household names.

Just because those non-Olympic events weren't as closely followed as the Olympics themselves doesn't mean they had no impact on the attention they did receive.


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03-10-2013, 06:19 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?
I'm not against the Olympics. I am just on the NHL's side here in what they want. However, considering the time difference in Sochi, it is hard for me to get excited over games I likely wont be able to watch live.

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03-10-2013, 12:38 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
For everyone who is against the Olympics, is it because you want the profits to go to the NHL/NHLPA instead of the various ice hockey federations?
No, my proposal was that the IIHF organize its own best on best tournament, outside of the Olympics, like pretty much every other major sport does. By having control over the location, timing, format and most importantly revenues the IIHF could increase, not decrease, their profits.

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03-10-2013, 02:20 PM
  #248
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Some people seem to forget that Hockey is only a niche-sport worldwide, its not soccer or even basketball. If the NHL was to organise a tournament nobody outside of hardcore-Hockey and NHL fans would watch whereas in the Olympics you will always have a lot of casual fans. Every Olympics i watch sports i would never watch outside of the Olympics.

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03-10-2013, 03:17 PM
  #249
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Some people seem to forget that Hockey is only a niche-sport worldwide, its not soccer or even basketball. If the NHL was to organise a tournament nobody outside of hardcore-Hockey and NHL fans would watch whereas in the Olympics you will always have a lot of casual fans. Every Olympics i watch sports i would never watch outside of the Olympics.
This is exactly the point, most fans of the Olympics are like this, which is why the claim that the Olympics is huge for growing the sport is so off base.

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03-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by NMF78 View Post
Some people seem to forget that Hockey is only a niche-sport worldwide, its not soccer or even basketball. If the NHL was to organise a tournament nobody outside of hardcore-Hockey and NHL fans would watch whereas in the Olympics you will always have a lot of casual fans. Every Olympics i watch sports i would never watch outside of the Olympics.
The big difference being that NHL is more and easily available to watch after/between games unlike e.g. curling, figure skating, swimming or gymnastics.

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