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Subban's play since coming back

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03-09-2013, 08:09 AM
  #851
E = CH²
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
This is true, so far this year, that Markov sees more PK time than Subban, but this is a tactical mistake by Therrien in my honest opinion. Subbans GA per minutes played on the pk were off the charts last year and he was a key contributor to the best pk in the league. He even had numbers better than Hal Gill when he was a hab.

I'm not knocking Markov, PK's strength, speed and athleticism enable him to win/recover pucks that most dman can't. On the flip side though, I will give Therrien credit, perhaps focusing PK into other situations has allowed his offensive numbers to flourish. I'm not sure the gaudy offensive numbers makes him a better overall player though. PK needs to pk, he's our best back there.
Agree with every word, especially the bolded part.

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03-09-2013, 08:13 AM
  #852
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I just do not know why this thread turned in to Subban vs Chelios vs Robinson vs Markov. PK is still young and improving. Why don't we wait until his career is over and then make comparision?

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03-09-2013, 08:19 AM
  #853
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
I just do not know why this thread turned in to Subban vs Chelios vs Robinson vs Markov. PK is still young and improving. Why don't we wait until his career is over and then make comparision?
Only one poster made those ridiculous comparisons. I think he should get the point by now. Having said that, I think PK Subban reminds me a lot of Chris Chelios.

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03-09-2013, 08:29 AM
  #854
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Originally Posted by 24rings View Post
Subban has the POTENTIAL to be one of the best d men in the league. i love him and i think he's great! But putting him in the same boat with Robinson and Chelios...... hopefully one day but as of now, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
It's not nearly as ridiculous as those who compare Price with Roy, but yeah, I hate these comparisons. Why not let the player finish his career before you compare him with all time bests ? Not to mention the game is different, the team is different.. The only way to compare players is to compare how they dominated their era ie number of achievements. And right now Robinson has achieved so much more that this conversation is not worth having. Just like there is absolutely no comparison between Roy and Price. And in both cases, there will likely never be ground for comparison.

I remember when Price won the calder cup at 19-20, the comparisons with Roy were flying. It's tempting to do it, and to keep doing it until the player inevitably falters. Just like it could have been tempting to say Subban was gonna be the best when he nearly tied Lapointe's rookie dman goal scoring habs record. But gotta rein in this stuff and be patient.

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03-09-2013, 08:34 AM
  #855
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people were comparing him to Del Zotto

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03-09-2013, 08:48 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
people were comparing him to Del Zotto
Not many

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03-09-2013, 08:49 AM
  #857
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So we can all agree that these comparisons with all time greats need to stop. Let's steer the discussion into contentious water once more.

PK Subban hasn't improved nearly as much as everyone says he has. He's been nearly the same player since last year.

The main differences is that he's asked to play an offensive role on the habs. Last year he was asked to play a defensive role. He was asked to go against other team's top players night in night out. He was asked to devote a good chunk of his 25-26 min to the penalty kill. He was playing a #1 dman role carrying a very average guy in Gorges on a really bad team.

I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.

I feel PK's defensive game has taken a barely noticeable step back from last year, and his offensive game has taken the same small leap forward. The main difference is production. Production is not synonymous with performance. Better players surrounding him and the coaching staff giving him a more offensive role are the reasons why he's producing more.


Last edited by E = CH²: 03-09-2013 at 08:56 AM.
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03-09-2013, 09:47 AM
  #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
people were comparing him to Del Zotto
François Gagnon especially. And this guy is the hockey insider on how many TV/Radio shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.
It's been a different story the last 3 games though.

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03-09-2013, 09:50 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So we can all agree that these comparisons with all time greats need to stop. Let's steer the discussion into contentious water once more.

PK Subban hasn't improved nearly as much as everyone says he has. He's been nearly the same player since last year.

The main differences is that he's asked to play an offensive role on the habs. Last year he was asked to play a defensive role. He was asked to go against other team's top players night in night out. He was asked to devote a good chunk of his 25-26 min to the penalty kill. He was playing a #1 dman role carrying a very average guy in Gorges on a really bad team.

I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.

I feel PK's defensive game has taken a barely noticeable step back from last year, and his offensive game has taken the same small leap forward. The main difference is production. Production is not synonymous with performance. Better players surrounding him and the coaching staff giving him a more offensive role are the reasons why he's producing more.
that's exactly what i've seen from PK as well...good post

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03-09-2013, 09:55 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Andrei79 View Post
He won't ever be better than Karlsson, who's better at everything, but he might have the odd better season.
Everything?! Well, that just ain't true.

I know who I am taking if I have to shut down a star player and it's Subban. Subban is also much more physical.

People are blinded by Karlsson's unbelievable offensive talent.

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03-09-2013, 09:56 AM
  #861
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Disagree. I don't think PK has taken a step back defensively at all. Just watch him on the boards or trapped behind his own net. Pure brilliance. He comes out of these situations unscathed 95% of the time.

Him and Mario Lemieux are the only players I've ever seen that continue to thrive when there's 200 pounds of hockey player draped all over their back.

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03-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Everything?! Well, that just ain't true.

I know who I am taking if I have to shut down a star player and it's Subban. Subban is also much more physical.

People are blinded by Karlsson's unbelievable offensive talent.

Erik Karlsson offensive talent is high but people only see highlights. I live in Ottawa and Karlsson's defensive is below average. Think Diaz on defense.

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03-09-2013, 10:36 AM
  #863
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Everything?! Well, that just ain't true.

I know who I am taking if I have to shut down a star player and it's Subban. Subban is also much more physical.

People are blinded by Karlsson's unbelievable offensive talent.
I hear what you're saying. PK is better at handling guys down low and such, but Karlsson is just so good that he'll have less work to do shutting down opposition because he can get the puck up to his forwards in transition so easily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capebretoncanadien View Post
Him and Mario Lemieux are the only players I've ever seen that continue to thrive when there's 200 pounds of hockey player draped all over their back.
Come on..
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
Erik Karlsson offensive talent is high but people only see highlights. I live in Ottawa and Karlsson's defensive is below average. Think Diaz on defense.
Diaz is not below average defensively, and neither is Karlsson!

Do you not see how badly we're missing Diaz on this defense?

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03-09-2013, 10:46 AM
  #864
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Originally Posted by capebretoncanadien View Post
Disagree. I don't think PK has taken a step back defensively at all. Just watch him on the boards or trapped behind his own net. Pure brilliance. He comes out of these situations unscathed 95% of the time.

Him and Mario Lemieux are the only players I've ever seen that continue to thrive when there's 200 pounds of hockey player draped all over their back.
Jaromir Jagr

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03-09-2013, 10:53 AM
  #865
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Jaromir Jagr
Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Perry, Forsberg, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Giroux, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.....

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03-09-2013, 10:57 AM
  #866
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I hear what you're saying. PK is better at handling guys down low and such, but Karlsson is just so good that he'll have less work to do shutting down opposition because he can get the puck up to his forwards in transition so easily.
As opposed to PK who is not good at that ?

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03-09-2013, 12:14 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Crosby, Malkin, Backstrom, Perry, Forsberg, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Giroux, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.....
Good company to be in !!

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03-09-2013, 12:26 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So we can all agree that these comparisons with all time greats need to stop. Let's steer the discussion into contentious water once more.

PK Subban hasn't improved nearly as much as everyone says he has. He's been nearly the same player since last year.

The main differences is that he's asked to play an offensive role on the habs. Last year he was asked to play a defensive role. He was asked to go against other team's top players night in night out. He was asked to devote a good chunk of his 25-26 min to the penalty kill. He was playing a #1 dman role carrying a very average guy in Gorges on a really bad team.

I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.

I feel PK's defensive game has taken a barely noticeable step back from last year, and his offensive game has taken the same small leap forward. The main difference is production. Production is not synonymous with performance. Better players surrounding him and the coaching staff giving him a more offensive role are the reasons why he's producing more.
Markov is hard matched against the opposition's best forward line pretty much every night. Which is a big reason he's not doing so hot on even strength.

Gorges is the go to guy for defensive zone draws, whether paired with Subban or Diaz.

So Subban has been largely ripping lesser oppositon to shreads on the 3rd pair this year, reminicent of how he was in the 1st half of his rookie season. Although he's recently moved back to the shutdown role with Diaz out.

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03-09-2013, 12:39 PM
  #869
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As opposed to PK who is not good at that ?
I never said PK wasn't good at it. Karlsson is on another level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habdynasty View Post
Good company to be in !!
In physical ability? He's up there with the best for sure.

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03-09-2013, 12:39 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think his point was that you don't call Malkin(or Crosby) a top 6 player, or a top 2 center.
Same goes for Pk, he shouldn't be mentioned as a top 4 but more as a top D (or top 2 at worst).

I still don't understand how people thought this kid hadn't proven enough to warrant the risk of signing him longer.
Subban is damn good.

The Canadiens have an opportunity (Gomez money and possibly Kaberle money) to use that money to upgrade this team significantly. And not giving a large chunk of that money to Subban right now will help Bergevin do just that.

Bergevin understood that.
Subban eventually came to that realization.
Some fans arent there yet.

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03-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #871
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Playing the best hockey of his career right now imo.

Still holds on to the puck too long in his own zone sometimes but you can tell he's working on that.

On the powerplay it's night and day. Much faster at moving the puck, moves around, a lot less predictable, his shot is quick and on net. Damn, those last two were bullets and one top shelf left and one low right.

He's going to be scary good in a few years.

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03-09-2013, 12:53 PM
  #872
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Everything?! Well, that just ain't true.

I know who I am taking if I have to shut down a star player and it's Subban. Subban is also much more physical.

People are blinded by Karlsson's unbelievable offensive talent.
Agreed.
PK has absolutely nothing to envy on the defensive side of the game from Karlsson.
Karlsson is not better than PK in every aspect of the game, not at all.

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03-09-2013, 12:57 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Subban is damn good.

The Canadiens have an opportunity (Gomez money and possibly Kaberle money) to use that money to upgrade this team significantly. And not giving a large chunk of that money to Subban right now will help Bergevin do just that.

Bergevin understood that.
Subban eventually came to that realization.
Some fans arent there yet.
It only helps him for one year and a half, and that's only of he actually uses that free space created from it.
After that, PK will likely ask for a much bigger raise than he would have had this year.

It's got nothing to do with not understand, everybody gets it, it's really not complicated. It's just a different way to operate.
I personally would have liked him locked up long term for cheaper right now. As opposed to a really cheap deal for 1 1/2 year and then get a much bigger raise.

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03-09-2013, 01:04 PM
  #874
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Obviously still beasting it though it looks like he's traded off some of his quickness for power. Looks like a tank out there.

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03-09-2013, 01:12 PM
  #875
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I think PK's rather idiosyncratic competitive mentality makes him elevate his game relative to who he's playing against. I would put him against the other teams' best whenever I got the chance, solely because I think that brings out the best in him in return.

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