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Subban's play since coming back

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Old
03-09-2013, 02:33 PM
  #876
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It only helps him for one year and a half, and that's only of he actually uses that free space created from it.
After that, PK will likely ask for a much bigger raise than he would have had this year.

It's got nothing to do with not understand, everybody gets it, it's really not complicated. It's just a different way to operate.
I personally would have liked him locked up long term for cheaper right now. As opposed to a really cheap deal for 1 1/2 year and then get a much bigger raise.
True. Only time will tell. If Bergevin does take advantage of the additional money and improves this team, then it was a very wise decision.

If he does not and then gets embroiled in another Subban contract fight, maybe we can then start the Fire Bergevin campaign.

I am thinking that the former has a higher chance of happening than the latter.

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03-09-2013, 02:42 PM
  #877
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I think PK's rather idiosyncratic competitive mentality makes him elevate his game relative to who he's playing against. I would put him against the other teams' best whenever I got the chance, solely because I think that brings out the best in him in return.
Why would he have something to prove?

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03-09-2013, 03:17 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So we can all agree that these comparisons with all time greats need to stop. Let's steer the discussion into contentious water once more.

PK Subban hasn't improved nearly as much as everyone says he has. He's been nearly the same player since last year.

The main differences is that he's asked to play an offensive role on the habs. Last year he was asked to play a defensive role. He was asked to go against other team's top players night in night out. He was asked to devote a good chunk of his 25-26 min to the penalty kill. He was playing a #1 dman role carrying a very average guy in Gorges on a really bad team.

I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.

I feel PK's defensive game has taken a barely noticeable step back from last year, and his offensive game has taken the same small leap forward. The main difference is production. Production is not synonymous with performance. Better players surrounding him and the coaching staff giving him a more offensive role are the reasons why he's producing more.
= bla bla bla bla = you're a hater

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03-09-2013, 03:22 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
= bla bla bla bla = you're a hater
Said quite eloquently.

I'll only add that Subban is about to eclipse his 2011-2012 goal scoring totals and if he keeps up on this pace, he'll only be eight assists away from his 2011-2012 assist totals and that's with 39 less games played.

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03-09-2013, 03:23 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Having said that, I think PK Subban reminds me a lot of Chris Chelios.
Mike Keenan said this a few months back... he's another Chris Chelios.

Personally I don't see it. I don't remember Chelios being that dynamic a skater or having the kinds of rushes that PK has. What I remember from Chelios was that he was a fearless warrior who would do anything to win and wouldn't back down from anyone. Chelios was a lot dirtier than PK is too.

I see them as being different players. Some similarities for sure but PK doesn't remind me of Chelios.

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03-09-2013, 03:26 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Mike Keenan said this a few months back... he's another Chris Chelios.

Personally I don't see it. I don't remember Chelios being that dynamic a skater or having the kinds of rushes that PK has. What I remember from Chelios was that he was a fearless warrior who would do anything to win and wouldn't back down from anyone. Chelios was a lot dirtier than PK is too.

I see them as being different players. Some similarities for sure but PK doesn't remind me of Chelios.
They are not carbon copy players, no. But Subban has the same effect that Chelios has on the ice. That's where the comparison counts.

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03-09-2013, 03:27 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
So we can all agree that these comparisons with all time greats need to stop. Let's steer the discussion into contentious water once more.

PK Subban hasn't improved nearly as much as everyone says he has. He's been nearly the same player since last year.

The main differences is that he's asked to play an offensive role on the habs. Last year he was asked to play a defensive role. He was asked to go against other team's top players night in night out. He was asked to devote a good chunk of his 25-26 min to the penalty kill. He was playing a #1 dman role carrying a very average guy in Gorges on a really bad team.

I don't have numbers, and maybe someone can disprove what I'm saying, but it feels like Markov is handling the tough assignments defensively, and PK is getting easier 5v5 match ups this season.

I feel PK's defensive game has taken a barely noticeable step back from last year, and his offensive game has taken the same small leap forward. The main difference is production. Production is not synonymous with performance. Better players surrounding him and the coaching staff giving him a more offensive role are the reasons why he's producing more.
- no more faking shots
- not going into end to end rushes as much
- not waiting "seconds" before takin a decision in the offensive zone as much anymore
- not winding up as much

among other things


and considering these were his major flaws...

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03-09-2013, 03:33 PM
  #883
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Why would he have something to prove?
Not sure what you mean- I was just writing in response to people saying he'd lost a step or was benefitting from easier match-ups.

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03-09-2013, 03:47 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
= bla bla bla bla = you're a hater
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Said quite eloquently.
More proof people can't understand what they read since I'm the biggest Subban fan there is and my post was meant as a compliment more than anything else. These boards have become unbearable with the "hater" crap. It's become absolutely completely ridiculous at this point. Bunch of 13 years old.

*unless it was some sort of sarcasm that I missed completely, I really hope it was, in which case I apologize*

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03-09-2013, 03:54 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I do not believe in comparing players across different eras.

But... I think Subban can gave a HHOF career, have has number retired, and get Conn smyths.

Subban > Markov , no doubt about it.
But Markov's QOC is higher than Subban's.

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03-09-2013, 04:00 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
- no more faking shots
- not going into end to end rushes as much
- not waiting "seconds" before takin a decision in the offensive zone as much anymore
- not winding up as much

among other things


and considering these were his major flaws...
Major flaws ? Those were small details. Maybe small details that matter but the thing is, a lot of that stuff you mention above was a result of playing with no one around him. Lanes weren't opening on the PP, he wasn't getting the great Markov feeds from anyone. It's nice to pass the puck around quickly when you know that the guys you pass them to will do something with it and not waste it. I'm sure he also felt that a simple first pass wouldn't get the puck out as reliably as if he took it and skated it to the other end. It was a 15th place team with Subban being one of the lone bright spots.

In his rookie season, the things you mentioned in your post weren't much of an issue. Heck he scored more pts in his rookie season, 14 goals. The team was playing better. Last year, I agree that offensively, PK wasn't doing so hot though. This year it's better but a lot of it is due to teammates and system and obviously he had some adjustments to make, especially after missing training camp. But if you think Subban took a major leap forward this year, I think you were underestimating him all along. A lot of us already knew he was this good. I don't tend to get hyped up much. Subban is one of the few that I've been excited about over the past 20 years of watching the habs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I never said PK wasn't good at it. Karlsson is on another level.
The questions is whether Karlsson is that much better than PK in transition that it completely overcomes PK being better defensively in his own zone. I don't think it does.


Last edited by Des Louise: 03-09-2013 at 04:07 PM.
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03-09-2013, 04:07 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Major flaws ? Those were small details. Maybe small details that matter but the thing is, a lot of that stuff you mention above was a result of playing with no one around him. Lanes weren't opening on the PP, he wasn't getting the great Markov feeds from anyone. It's nice to pass the puck around quickly when you know that the guys you pass them too will do something with it and not waste it. I'm sure he also felt that a simple first pass wouldn't get the puck out as reliably as if he took it and skated it to the other end. It was a 15th place team with Subban being one of the lone bright spots.

In his rookie season, the things you mentioned in your post weren't much of an issue. Heck he scored more pts in his rookie season, 14 goals. The team was playing better. Last year, I agree that offensively, PK wasn't doing so hot though. This year it's better but a lot of it is due to teammates and system and obviously he had some adjustments to make, especially after missing training camp. But if you think Subban took a major leap forward this year, I think you were underestimating him all along. A lot of us already knew he was this good. I don't tend to get hyped up much. Subban is one of the few that I've been excited about over the past 20 years of watching the habs.
paired with a defensive D (Bouillon at first, now Gorges) just like last year, Emelin, Diaz and co were there last season as well on D, just like Eller, Plek, DD, Patches, Bourque, Gionta (minus his injuries), Moen and co on the 4th...

the "we had no one last season" is an excuse, nothing more.

he was GOOD (not great, not awesome, good) last seasons, now he's slowly becoming a great (not good, no ok, great) defenseman.

He isnt as flashy though, might be why most dont see him improving much.

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03-09-2013, 04:32 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
paired with a defensive D (Bouillon at first, now Gorges) just like last year, Emelin, Diaz and co were there last season as well on D, just like Eller, Plek, DD, Patches, Bourque, Gionta (minus his injuries), Moen and co on the 4th...

the "we had no one last season" is an excuse, nothing more.

he was GOOD (not great, not awesome, good) last seasons, now he's slowly becoming a great (not good, no ok, great) defenseman.

He isnt as flashy though, might be why most dont see him improving much.
As he said, if you didn't see this from PK last year, then you just underestimated and misread him.
PK was great last year.

I don't see how playing with Gorges last year means he had the same teammates.
Outside the DD line, nothing worked.
On the PP, we wanted him to be the QB and the shooter.
We had absolutely no system under RC. The game plan always seemed to be, dump it out of the zone, and dump/chase in the offensive zone.
That obviously doesn't favor a guy like PK.

Still, he did very well playing big minutes versus tougher opponents.

This year, he seems a bit more poised and disciplined. But his overall game hasn't improved greatly.
Not winding up so much is a tiny detail, one that can go a long way, but it's not a major flaw.
If you consider this to have been one of his major flaws, then it should tell you that this kid was one hell of a Dman.

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03-09-2013, 04:37 PM
  #889
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True. Only time will tell. If Bergevin does take advantage of the additional money and improves this team, then it was a very wise decision.

If he does not and then gets embroiled in another Subban contract fight, maybe we can then start the Fire Bergevin campaign.

I am thinking that the former has a higher chance of happening than the latter.
Even if Bergevin improves the team with the created space, it doesn't mean the next negotiations will go well or that our team will be better with PK's next contract.

If we use the space, but the PK gets a 7-8M deal, and we're forced to move some other contract then we won't necessarily be in a better situation.
So I guess we will see how things evolve. But IMO, the best idea is to sign him to an extension this summer (like Bergevin did with MaxPac).

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03-09-2013, 05:22 PM
  #890
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He's going to be scary good in a few years.
Only if you're a rival fan!
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
The questions is whether Karlsson is that much better than PK in transition that it completely overcomes PK being better defensively in his own zone. I don't think it does.
I think it does, seeing as Karlsson makes any team better than Subban would, but it doesn't take away from the fact that PK is good at defence. In terms of positioning and awareness I like Karlsson better, but physicality and play down low, I'll take PK. I definitely wouldn't say that Karlsson is "better than PK at everything" but I would say that he's better than him at most things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If we use the space, but the PK gets a 7-8M deal, and we're forced to move some other contract then we won't necessarily be in a better situation.
If PK gets a 7 or 8M dollar deal, I will seek out Bergevin and kick him square in the nuts myself! No joke, as of right now, that's a laughable amount to expect.

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03-09-2013, 05:39 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post

If PK gets a 7 or 8M dollar deal, I will seek out Bergevin and kick him square in the nuts myself! No joke, as of right now, that's a laughable amount to expect.
Yeah, but after he wins two straight Cups on this contract, he'll want quite a bit.

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03-09-2013, 05:41 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Even if Bergevin improves the team with the created space, it doesn't mean the next negotiations will go well or that our team will be better with PK's next contract.

If we use the space, but the PK gets a 7-8M deal, and we're forced to move some other contract then we won't necessarily be in a better situation.
So I guess we will see how things evolve. But IMO, the best idea is to sign him to an extension this summer (like Bergevin did with MaxPac).
He may very well do that, regarding the extension. It would be a wise move if Bergevin cannot get the "expensive" players he is looking for to sign here.

There are just a lot of variables and Bergevin appears to be trying to balance the needs of next season along with the future. So far I like how he is handling things here.

And I am liking how Subban is becoming a better player here.

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03-09-2013, 05:56 PM
  #893
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If PK gets a 7 or 8M dollar deal, I will seek out Bergevin and kick him square in the nuts myself! No joke, as of right now, that's a laughable amount to expect.
Sure, right now it is. But we are talking summer 2014, not now. So who knows by then.
However, if he keeps solidifying his role, and keeps maturing/developing, it isn't so out of this world to think he might actually get that much.
Another thing to consider are the new CBA rules. Guys like Weber and Suter, with the highest cap hit, were signed to 13-14year deals. Right now the limit is 8years and the deviation from the highest and lowest salaries throughout the years of the contract can't vary from 15M dollars like in some cases.
So we will see how things operate under the new CBA, and I'm sure loopholes will be found at some point.

PK will also be eligible to arbitration, so, again, we'll have to see how deals get signed under the new CBA. Not sure it started too well with Getzlaf signing at 8.25.M.

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03-09-2013, 05:58 PM
  #894
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Not much has changed in PK's game at all. He's the same dominant PK Subban he's been since entering the league. Many fans in here were comparing him to Michael Del Zotto, which is downright laughable and speaks more to their lack of ability in player evaluation more than anything.

This is what you get from Subban, he's going to get better, he's still only 23, this is his normal learning curve and management has very little to do with it.

Player evaluation in the PK Subban thread was atrocious by many. This is exactly what all of those who wanted PK signed long term seen happening. It's about time some of you admit you were completely out to lunch.

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03-09-2013, 07:01 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Not much has changed in PK's game at all. He's the same dominant PK Subban he's been since entering the league. Many fans in here were comparing him to Michael Del Zotto, which is downright laughable and speaks more to their lack of ability in player evaluation more than anything.

This is what you get from Subban, he's going to get better, he's still only 23, this is his normal learning curve and management has very little to do with it.

Player evaluation in the PK Subban thread was atrocious by many. This is exactly what all of those who wanted PK signed long term seen happening. It's about time some of you admit you were completely out to lunch.
I wouldn't say nothing has changed. As you also said, he is still improving. He is being a bit more patient with the puck and using more creative passes. We did start to see that a bit at the end of last year, but having a guy like Markov there to take some heat off him is essential.

You cannot have 1 threat at your blue line, it's too easy to neutralize, and that's what happened last year. Looking for subban to shatter his previous best of 14 goals. Or at the very least, tie it in a condensed schedule

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03-09-2013, 07:11 PM
  #896
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I wouldn't say nothing has changed. As you also said, he is still improving. He is being a bit more patient with the puck and using more creative passes. We did start to see that a bit at the end of last year, but having a guy like Markov there to take some heat off him is essential.

You cannot have 1 threat at your blue line, it's too easy to neutralize, and that's what happened last year. Looking for subban to shatter his previous best of 14 goals. Or at the very least, tie it in a condensed schedule
Agreed, but his progression is his own doing imo. PK Subban's learning curve isn't the same as your typical 23 yr old. It was evident to anyone watching that PK was an absurdly talented player who was eventually going to start producing. His offensive numbers are good and all, but it's his defense that is the best aspect of his game. Nothing even remotely similar about PK and Del Zotto for example.

I am not about to give the coach credit for PK Subban with a total of 18 games coached. Puhlease, if anything, Therrien has been using him poorly. I don't care about the 15 points in 18 games or whatever it is. This was going to happen eventually. I care about our best pker and best dman being out on the ice in situations where he excels better than the others on the team.

PK isn't done progressing either, he shows every year that he will continue to get better. Having Markov helps for sure, who couldn't learn a few things from the general? I've been waiting 3 years to see them together, it's about damn time.

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03-10-2013, 12:47 AM
  #897
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27+ minutes tonight, 4 more minutes than any other defenseman on the team. If we keeps this up he could actually have a chance at the Norris!

And then he'd get a pretty big paycheque next year.

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03-10-2013, 03:33 AM
  #898
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Gotta give him credit for improving his shot accuracy from the point.

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03-10-2013, 04:35 AM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As he said, if you didn't see this from PK last year, then you just underestimated and misread him.
PK was great last year.

I don't see how playing with Gorges last year means he had the same teammates.
Outside the DD line, nothing worked.
On the PP, we wanted him to be the QB and the shooter.
We had absolutely no system under RC. The game plan always seemed to be, dump it out of the zone, and dump/chase in the offensive zone.
That obviously doesn't favor a guy like PK.

Still, he did very well playing big minutes versus tougher opponents.

This year, he seems a bit more poised and disciplined. But his overall game hasn't improved greatly.
Not winding up so much is a tiny detail, one that can go a long way, but it's not a major flaw.
If you consider this to have been one of his major flaws, then it should tell you that this kid was one hell of a Dman.
not really, no.


not greatly but he did improve, and he's showing signs he's trying hard to add more to his toolbox even though attempts arent always succesful (reason I said he's slowly becoming great, not that he is already)

huh, what are you talking about ? I did mention Emelin, Diaz, Moen, Gionta, etc.. ON TOP of Gorges... reading 101.


the issues become major flaws when you add them, not when you look at them one by one, difference between god and great is rarely due to only one thing.


it was telling me that he had great POTENTIAL actually, not that he was already great.

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03-10-2013, 04:39 AM
  #900
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Not much has changed in PK's game at all. He's the same dominant PK Subban he's been since entering the league. Many fans in here were comparing him to Michael Del Zotto, which is downright laughable and speaks more to their lack of ability in player evaluation more than anything.

This is what you get from Subban, he's going to get better, he's still only 23, this is his normal learning curve and management has very little to do with it.

Player evaluation in the PK Subban thread was atrocious by many. This is exactly what all of those who wanted PK signed long term seen happening. It's about time some of you admit you were completely out to lunch.
not winding up as much
not attempting end to end rushes as often
more creative on the PP
make better passes in transition
more patient with the puck
doesnt do his "around the net with only one hand on stick" thingie as often

yup, I'd say he's the exact same... thing is, with that logic one would have to think he has somehow regressed as he is the exact same while the whole team is better... don't you think ?

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