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Jake Gardiner

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Old
03-09-2013, 10:12 AM
  #76
CarknerCountry
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Holzer isn't taking his spot? Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Fraser and Liles are LHD, Kostka, Holzer, Franson and Komisarek are RHD. He's not taking Phaneuf out of the lineup, were not waiving Gunnarsson, Liles is in the press box and Fraser is playing well. Who exactly should be thrown away for FREE to let Gardiner play? Come the trade deadline I can see one of them being traded to make room for Gardiner but waiving one for an extra 10 games of Gardiner is not good asset management. Don't look now your ignorance is showing!
If Gards is as good as you are all saying he should be in the lineup period.. Ignorance? lol Liles is a healthy scratch and Fraser please.

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03-09-2013, 10:16 AM
  #77
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If Gards is as good as you are all saying he should be in the lineup period.. Ignorance? lol Liles is a healthy scratch and Fraser please.
Ignorance?? You realize that Fraser leads the league in +/- and Liles hasn't played in a couple of weeks, right??

You should also realize that Gardiner plays a totally different type of game than Fraser (& Holzer), right??

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03-09-2013, 10:24 AM
  #78
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Couturier
Hi Paul?....this is Dave....Ya,Dave Nonis.... DONE!!! NA DE DA DE NANA!!

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03-09-2013, 10:39 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He got a concussion, when he came back struggled a bit, so they sent him down because they could. Since then, the team has played excellent. One thing you'd know if you watched the Leafs -- Carlyle doesn't mess with a winning formula.
oh ok so its possible if the leafs keep winning Gards wont be up at all..Ok i get that logic
Reading Comprehension FAIL

No, what seanlinden said Gards is recovering from a concussion AND RC doesn't like to mess with a winning formula. If Gards recovers and outplays one of the D then he will be rewarded

Just read the rest of CarknerCountry's posts and it's hard not to feel embarrassed for him

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03-09-2013, 10:42 AM
  #80
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If Gards is as good as you are all saying he should be in the lineup period.. Ignorance? lol Liles is a healthy scratch and Fraser please.
Again. We are at the roster limit and still need lupul back. At that point 2 players need to be traded or waived to get Gardiner into the lineup, one of which has to be a LHD. So what is smarter, waive a valuable asset in Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Fraser or Liles or wait out until the TD deal one or two away and recall Gardiner? Let me exaggerate this for you have a D corps of

Chara - XXXX
Subban - XXXX
Shattenkirk - XXXX

Karlssons in the minors to recoup after a concussion. It's a month until the TD your teams in a playoff spot but you fully well know that he is better than both Shattenkirk and Subban. Do you deal one of shattenkirk or subban now out of haste, or waive one of them just to get Karlsson playing, or do you wait two weeks, maximize your return and get karlsson in a month before the playoffs start?

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03-09-2013, 10:45 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Again. We are at the roster limit and still need lupul back. At that point 2 players need to be traded or waived to get Gardiner into the lineup, one of which has to be a LHD. So what is smarter, waive a valuable asset in Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Fraser or Liles or wait out until the TD deal one or two away and recall Gardiner? Let me exaggerate this for you have a D corps of

Chara - XXXX
Subban - XXXX
Shattenkirk - XXXX

Karlssons in the minors to recoup after a concussion. It's a month until the TD your teams in a playoff spot but you fully well know that he is better than both Shattenkirk and Subban. Do you deal one of shattenkirk or subban now out of haste, or waive one of them just to get Karlsson playing, or do you wait two weeks, maximize your return and get karlsson in a month before the playoffs start?
I'm not saying that Ottawa fan is right, but in that case, it's really f'ing simple... a left handed defenceman plays on the right.

The whole handedness of defenceman crap is incredibly overplayed. Yes, some guys have their preference, but there's very few NHLers who don't have the versatility to play both. The most important time when it matters is on the powerplay, because you generally can't get the 1-timer without being on the off-side.

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03-09-2013, 12:26 PM
  #82
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He got a concussion, when he came back struggled a bit, so they sent him down because they could. Since then, the team has played excellent. One thing you'd know if you watched the Leafs -- Carlyle doesn't mess with a winning formula.
Carlyle wouldn't keep Gardiner out of the line-up if he felt Jake would be their 2nd best defenseman. I'm sorry, but he just wouldn't. I don't care how many defensemen you have. All of this talk about how great Gardiner is flies in the face of this. Yes, he has a lot of potential to be a real good player, but that isn't at all the same as being a real good player.

I saw Carlyle for years in Anaheim, and he absolutely would mess with a winning formula if he felt it would make the team better. Adding a defenseman who would immediately be the #2? That is a no brainer. If it were true.

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03-09-2013, 01:04 PM
  #83
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Carlyle wouldn't keep Gardiner out of the line-up if he felt Jake would be their 2nd best defenseman. I'm sorry, but he just wouldn't. I don't care how many defensemen you have. All of this talk about how great Gardiner is flies in the face of this. Yes, he has a lot of potential to be a real good player, but that isn't at all the same as being a real good player.

I saw Carlyle for years in Anaheim, and he absolutely would mess with a winning formula if he felt it would make the team better. Adding a defenseman who would immediately be the #2? That is a no brainer. If it were true.
That's Carlyle but what about Nonis. Nonis has said a few things in his press conferences that stand out. First, he is first and foremost interested in the long term benefits for the organzation and second the main difference between him and Burke is that he's more patient. Putting one of his roster players on waivers and having them taken by another team for nothing is completely detrimental to the long term health of the organization, and all because we need to bring up Gardiner to help an already playoff positioned team.

If he did this then both of the things he said in his press conference would be lies. You need to think outside of the box and think as if you were a leaf GM.

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03-09-2013, 01:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CarknerCountry View Post
If Gards is as good as you are all saying he should be in the lineup period.. Ignorance? lol Liles is a healthy scratch and Fraser please.
My type of GM The Kessel deal must have made perfect sense to you. Why worry about losing assets that can help you long term when you can get a really good player right now.

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03-09-2013, 01:17 PM
  #85
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A Couturier-Gardiner swap would be good for both sides imo.

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03-09-2013, 01:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Carlyle wouldn't keep Gardiner out of the line-up if he felt Jake would be their 2nd best defenseman. I'm sorry, but he just wouldn't. I don't care how many defensemen you have. All of this talk about how great Gardiner is flies in the face of this. Yes, he has a lot of potential to be a real good player, but that isn't at all the same as being a real good player.

I saw Carlyle for years in Anaheim, and he absolutely would mess with a winning formula if he felt it would make the team better. Adding a defenseman who would immediately be the #2? That is a no brainer. If it were true.
Of course he wouldn't, but who honestly believes that Jake Gardiner comes in and becomes the immediate #2???

The guy's a sophomore, and generally (at least in my view / experience), guys who have great rookie years (where Gardiner was at best a #4 defenceman) either very mildly improve, or regress in their second years.

He'd most likely come in, and bring a very similar overall calibre of game to the likes of Kostka, Holzer, Fraser, Franson, Liles & Komisarek, albeit with a different skillset. However, as evidenced by Liles being in the pressbox, Carlyle isn't looking for somebody of that skillset right now, and honestly, I don't really blame him.

You're not going to put Gardiner on a pair with Phaneuf and you're not going to break up Franson-Fraser because of how effective they've been, and their unique values (toughness for Fraser, pointshot for Franson). He's also not going to displace Gunnarsson, which basically leaves Kostka. Wtih the way Kostka is playing, Gardiner isn't a clear upgrade over him at this point.

It's Gardiner's long term upside that gives him his substantial value, not what a team can expect of him right now.

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03-09-2013, 01:21 PM
  #87
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That's Carlyle but what about Nonis. Nonis has said a few things in his press conferences that stand out. First, he is first and foremost interested in the long term benefits for the organzation and second the main difference between him and Burke is that he's more patient. Putting one of his roster players on waivers and having them taken by another team for nothing is completely detrimental to the long term health of the organization, and all because we need to bring up Gardiner to help an already playoff positioned team.

If he did this then both of the things he said in his press conference would be lies. You need to think outside of the box and think as if you were a leaf GM.
If Nonis felt that Gardiner would be the 2nd best defenseman on the team, he wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't use him. He'd make a trade and make room. That he -is- patient, and that he hasn't, actually supports the argument I'm making: Gardiner isn't at that level yet, and could probably still benefit from some more seasoning. This isn't a knock against Gardiner, at all, and Toronto fans shouldn't feel that way. This is just the difference between having great potential and being a great player. You play a great player. You develop great potential.

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03-09-2013, 01:23 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
A Couturier-Gardiner swap would be good for both sides imo.
And with both sides you mean Toronto and the Leafs?

I agree that something around them might make sense because PHI does need some D but the Leafs would have to add a lot.

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03-09-2013, 01:24 PM
  #89
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No sir I am not.

Just because Fowler is on his third year doesn't mean he's better.

Do you remember that time when people said: "LOL Kadri is a bust, he can't crack one of the worst rosters in the league"

PK Subban didn't play when he was 18? Would you say Fowler is better than Subban ?

I am not delusional.

Schultz and Gardiner have a much higher potential than Cam Fowler. I wasn't wrong about Kadri and I know I won't be wrong about this, just give it 1-2 years.
...in what world do they have higher potential?

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03-09-2013, 02:43 PM
  #90
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Probably wishful/unrealistic thinking, but would Gardiner+ for Ryan Johansen would be out of the question? I think the BJ's have depth at D in the prospect pool and not so much at C. So probably out of the question. I guess I wouldn't do it if I were a BJ fan.

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03-09-2013, 03:39 PM
  #91
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Boone Jenner and Kings 1st

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03-09-2013, 03:43 PM
  #92
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A build around Coburn for Gardiner?

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03-09-2013, 04:19 PM
  #93
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Boone Jenner and Kings 1st
Not that bad, i'd push for Rangers 1st tho

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03-09-2013, 08:59 PM
  #94
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This whole bashing of Gardiner is hilarious. The "if he was so good he'd be in the NHL period" line of thinking smacks of ignorance and agenda driven trolling, especially when they ignore the entire context. Remember when Bobby Ryan was playing in the AHL for salary/cap reasons when he was clearly an NHL level player. Remember when Kadri couldn't buy a call up last year, even when he was dominating the AHL, cause Burke and Wilson didn't like him?

There are extenuating circumstances as to why Gardiner is in the A.

1) Gardiner was coming off a concussion, and isn't playing up to his usual level. (Same thing happened to Van Riemsdyk with the Flyers last year).
2) Carlyle has an obsessive need to have all defencemen on their strong side.
3) The team is playing well (top 10 in PK and top 15 in PP) meaning no one deserves to lose their spot in the lineup.

Their are only three defencemen in the lineup that Gardiner could possibly replace in Carlyle's system (i.e. lefties, Phaneuf, Fraser, Gunnarson).

Phaneuf: he's not replacing the Captain obviously.

Fraser: Leads the team in +/- and brings a completely different style of play from Gardiner.

Gunnarson: Is arguably our best defensive defenceman, and would have to pass through waivers to be sent down, and would almost certainly be claimed. Why throw away an asset with solid value like Gunnarson for nothing, when we could keep both until a spot opens up through trade or injury.

Could Gardiner replace Kotska, Franson, or Holzer? Of course he could, but Carlyle refuses to have a left with left defensively. Otherwise you're arguing that those three are better than Gardiner, in which case you clearly don't watch our team, so what's the point discussing it.

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03-09-2013, 09:09 PM
  #95
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A build around Coburn for Gardiner?
Leafs wouldn't do it.


If Philly wanted him, the trade would be built around B. Schenn or Couturier for Gardiner, and then Flyers fans wouldn't do it.


Last edited by Briecheeze: 03-09-2013 at 10:07 PM.
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03-09-2013, 10:33 PM
  #96
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this is a weak excuse. he's playing in the AHL because the leaf's have 9 healthy defenseman? thats weak. if you're good enough to play in the NHL and make a significant impact thats where you'll play. he obviously has things to work on in the AHL and thats why he's there...

he'll be a real good defenseman. I don't doubt that, I had high hopes for him to play on the ducks top-4 one day. But he isn't there yet, and its great that he's developing well down there, but he's obviously not beating out people on the depth chart yet in Toronto and thats fine, he's a young guy with lots of time to grow
For an Anahiem fan. you obviously havent been paying attentiont o all the years with Carlyle have you?

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03-09-2013, 10:55 PM
  #97
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For an Anahiem fan. you obviously havent been paying attentiont o all the years with Carlyle have you?
You mean like the many times he made changes to a winning line-up because he felt it would lead to a stronger team? Is that what you're referring to? You think you have a better idea of Carlyle's practices in less than a season compared to the years he spent in Anaheim?

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03-09-2013, 11:00 PM
  #98
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You mean like the many times he made changes to a winning line-up because he felt it would lead to a stronger team? Is that what you're referring to? You think you have a better idea of Carlyle's practices in less than a season compared to the years he spent in Anaheim?
Like when he kept Getzlaf and Perry in the minors when they were clearly NHL players... Or Bobby Ryan. Oh thats right, Ryan played as an 18 year old... Right? Give your head a shake. As a Mod, you should be above this trolling crap.

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03-09-2013, 11:02 PM
  #99
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If Gards is as good as you are all saying he should be in the lineup period.. Ignorance? lol Liles is a healthy scratch and Fraser please.
Heard that alot about Kadri too.

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03-09-2013, 11:06 PM
  #100
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This whole bashing of Gardiner is hilarious. The "if he was so good he'd be in the NHL period" line of thinking smacks of ignorance and agenda driven trolling, especially when they ignore the entire context. Remember when Bobby Ryan was playing in the AHL for salary/cap reasons when he was clearly an NHL level player. Remember when Kadri couldn't buy a call up last year, even when he was dominating the AHL, cause Burke and Wilson didn't like him?

There are extenuating circumstances as to why Gardiner is in the A.

1) Gardiner was coming off a concussion, and isn't playing up to his usual level. (Same thing happened to Van Riemsdyk with the Flyers last year).
2) Carlyle has an obsessive need to have all defencemen on their strong side.
3) The team is playing well (top 10 in PK and top 15 in PP) meaning no one deserves to lose their spot in the lineup.

Their are only three defencemen in the lineup that Gardiner could possibly replace in Carlyle's system (i.e. lefties, Phaneuf, Fraser, Gunnarson).

Phaneuf: he's not replacing the Captain obviously.

Fraser: Leads the team in +/- and brings a completely different style of play from Gardiner.

Gunnarson: Is arguably our best defensive defenceman, and would have to pass through waivers to be sent down, and would almost certainly be claimed. Why throw away an asset with solid value like Gunnarson for nothing, when we could keep both until a spot opens up through trade or injury.

Could Gardiner replace Kotska, Franson, or Holzer? Of course he could, but Carlyle refuses to have a left with left defensively. Otherwise you're arguing that those three are better than Gardiner, in which case you clearly don't watch our team, so what's the point discussing it.
I do remember when Bobby Ryan was in the AHL for cap reasons. What I'd like to know is if you can tell me when Carlyle became GM of Anaheim, because I'm fairly sure that cap management is not really the coach's responsibility. Is Gardiner in the AHL for cap reasons? Because that isn't a reason you listed, so I'm kind of curious how it has any relevance at all.

When I look through your list, it all boils down to "Gardiner isn't good enough to force the issue yet." and that's fine. He's a young player with his career ahead of him. But all of this crap about a winning team and defensemen on their strong side... Carlyle has shown a willingness to step away from those tendencies when he felt it made the team better. This isn't a knock against Gardiner. It's just a reality of being a young player. There is room for growth. There is room for improvement. Maybe the team just feels he's better off in the AHL for now. It doesn't really matter. He isn't on the team, and it's kind of hard to call him some amazing player when this is the case.

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