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Old
03-10-2013, 01:32 AM
  #76
Vankiller Whale
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I really don't see any likely deal between us. Edler is extremely unlikely to be moved after being re-signed, so unless Philly is interested in moving one of their forwards(Hartnell/Voracek/Couturier/Simmonds) for Schneider...

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03-10-2013, 01:40 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
imo, centre>defenseman>winger, especially considering our current situation
We have H. Sedin and Kesler. We don't need to be trading for Couturier. B. Schenn maybe but there is no way Philly moves him. Couturier is a future player who is still working out his game. We need players who can play a consistent role now.

So I wouldn't move Edler + a 1st for Couturier and Coburn. Too much risk in running Couturier as a 2nd line center or giving him top six minutes over a more proven and complete player. Example: Voracek would make more sense for us now. Couturier would be good for the future. But I think the Canucks need to pick a plan and run with it no more building for the future while trying to compete.

Also from Philly's perspective I'm looking at Edler. You know what kind of dman you're getting but with his recent injury history and inconsistent play. Do you really give up one of your prized young players for him? Nope.

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Old
03-10-2013, 01:42 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Gillis signed Edler to a contract extension with a NTC. He's not getting dealt.
cap geek says he doesnt have an NTC . Can you show us where it is?

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:10 AM
  #79
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Would absolutely send Edler + 1st + "B" prospect for Couturier and Coburn.

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:30 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandonlee View Post
You guys sure seem eager to get rid of Coburn, something you're not telling us?
Coburn has not played well this year for us, that's no secret. Although you could say the same thing about half our bloody roster . He's still a good defenseman though, he just shouldn't be relied on as a #1, which is essentially what's going on right now. He also fills a role (big, physical shutdown guy) that has become somewhat redundant on the Flyers, with the acquisitions of Luke Schenn and Nicklas Grossmann over the last year. One of the reasons we've struggled so much is because our defensemen struggle massively to skate the puck out of the zone and/or to make a good outlet pass. Edler solves that problem pretty well IMO.

So basically, it's the fact that we have guys on the roster who can do what Coburn does, but we don't have anyone who can do what Edler does; that's what it boils down to. But I'd be lying if I said his poor start to this season didn't play a role. Any time a veteran player struggles, fans are a little less hesitant to deal him and likewise any time a player plays above his head, fans say he's untouchable (Hartnell last year for example).

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:41 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Coburn has not played well this year for us, that's no secret. Although you could say the same thing about half our bloody roster . He's still a good defenseman though, he just shouldn't be relied on as a #1, which is essentially what's going on right now. He also fills a role (big, physical shutdown guy) that has become somewhat redundant on the Flyers, with the acquisitions of Luke Schenn and Nicklas Grossmann over the last year. One of the reasons we've struggled so much is because our defensemen struggle massively to skate the puck out of the zone and/or to make a good outlet pass. Edler solves that problem pretty well IMO.

So basically, it's the fact that we have guys on the roster who can do what Coburn does, but we don't have anyone who can do what Edler does; that's what it boils down to. But I'd be lying if I said his poor start to this season didn't play a role. Any time a veteran player struggles, fans are a little less hesitant to deal him and likewise any time a player plays above his head, fans say he's untouchable (Hartnell last year for example).
Do you think he would do good paired with Bieksa? Bieksa has played well with Hamhuis and Mitchell who are both similar to Coburn (I think).

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:43 AM
  #82
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Canucks are not trading away a defenceman. Canucks will not trade a pick. End of OP.

Canucks are in a funny position of having a surplus goalie but cannot move him. So, they keep a ton of salary space used for goalies. This hampers the team harshly. The new CBA doesn't actually name Luongo, but there is no question who the rules are aimed at.

Until some way to move Luongo comes along, Vancouver by necessity will be building with entry contracts. Does Philadelphia have any of those to trade? Vancouver offers an aging goalie with an unmovable contract.

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:46 AM
  #83
Sergei Shirokov
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Lol this is terrible for the Flyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumping View Post
Why would the Flyers do that?



Edlers not that much better than Coburn.
Luongo's not much better than Bryz. Schneiders better but he's not that much better than Bryz and the Flyers still have Bryz's contract.
A Flyers first round pick that will be in the top ten.
And Couterier
And Vora?
Luongo's actually alot better than Bryz, and I would bet Edler is a far margin better than Coburn, and I like Coburn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Flyers give the two best pieces? Definitely not.
Schneider isn't the best piece?

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:48 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rede View Post
My thinking was actually Voracek+Couturier for Luongo+Schroeder. Alberts and Leighton were added to offset salary and fill extra goalie position. (Ballard/Coburn was probably just complicating things for no reason in hindsight.)

I guess it comes down to how much value you place on Luongo and from the number of '<' characters you included when comparing Leighton to Luongo I think we differ pretty dramatically - but no desire to turn this into a Luongo thread so let's just not go there. I like Lu's contract more than Bryz's though
Your proposal was still a terrible one. Voracek is on a great contract and is an incredible winger with all the tools and he's breaking out in a big way; he holds more value than Luongo quite easily. Likewise, Couturier is way more valuable than Schroeder. It's slightly better without Alberts, Leighton, Ballard, and Coburn, but it's still bad. The very least you could do is make it Schneider instead of Luongo so you're not totally boning us, but still that would be a bad deal for Philly.

As far as Luo goes, if not for the contract, I would've added 20 more "<"s on to the value there, but Leighton is a UFA who is gone after this season, while Luo's contract runs till 2022, aka until he's 43. That's going to be a terrible burden down the line if his team doesn't buy him out. It got even worse when the NHL got rid of the "stash the player in the minors" cap loophole. He's a great goalie on a terrible contract, but that contract (and Luo's age) kills his value. If a team trades for him and he retires early too... ouch w/ this new recapture thing.

Like you, I'd prefer not to make this a Luo thread, but I just had to say that little piece there about him. I want no parts of Luo, regardless of the price. I think I speak for most Philly fans when I say that one 9 year contract to a headcase goalie was enough. We don't want to relive the experience, we want to buyout Bryz and move on and by "move on", I don't mean replace Bryz's contract with an equally bad one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rede View Post
AKA Jeff Carter for Roberto Luongo and Jordan Schroeder (for perspective).
Since the initial trade, Jeff Carter took a definitive dip in terms of his value. His production went down significantly. Then Columbus's first turned into Sean Couturier (which increased its' value considerably), Sean Couturier made the team as a rookie and was incredible in a shutdown role (which again increased his value), and meanwhile, Jake Voracek broke out into a PPG winger and is far and away the best player on the Flyers' this season (which represents a massive increase in his value).

To try and make this out to be Jeff Carter for Luo + Schroeder is just silly and is totally ignoring the changes in value.

It would be the same as me offering Simon Gagne straight up for Cory Schneider and explaining the trade as "22nd overall pick for 26th overall pick".

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:49 AM
  #85
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Wow, these proposals by Vancouver fans are absolutely brutal. Break out the lube.

A FAIR trade between the two teams would be something like:

Vancouver gets:
Sean Couturier
Braydon Coburn
1st round pick (top 10 protected in 2013)

Philly gets:
Alexander Edler
Cory Schneider

It's definitely a bit of an overpayment by the Flyers, but it solves both of our primary problems (young potentially elite goalie + young potentially elite PMD) so I'm willing to do it.
If the Flyers would do it I would really consider it. And probably/possibly do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Terrible. Couturier+Coburn+2nd for Edler+Luongo and I'd consider.
Yeah I would do that probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Vancouver adds Contraceptive Jelly
Aswell as some lube.

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:49 AM
  #86
Brayden Pattison
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Originally Posted by GranvilleIsland View Post
Also from Philly's perspective I'm looking at Edler. You know what kind of dman you're getting but with his recent injury history and inconsistent play. Do you really give up one of your prized young players for him? Nope.
Maybe you do if you have the Flyers' inability to draft and develop d-men in general and PMDs in particular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
cap geek says he doesnt have an NTC . Can you show us where it is?
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ho...041/story.html 5th paragraph. The NTC probably doesn't kick in until his new deal does (next year).

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:50 AM
  #87
Sergei Shirokov
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
I hope there was supposed to be a "" at the end of your post. If not, then SMH @ how terribly you're overvaluing Edler and Schneider.
Ignore him. Biggest homer on HF, on the level of stupidity.

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:52 AM
  #88
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What would you guys be willing to give up for Luongo?

And I consider myself pretty realistic when it comes to his value.

He would really help your squad. Still an elite goalie no question IMO. And the contract isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

(Extra pieces could be added depending on what they are)

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03-10-2013, 03:55 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Do you think he would do good paired with Bieksa? Bieksa has played well with Hamhuis and Mitchell who are both similar to Coburn (I think).
I think he would be a perfect fit to play with Bieksa, especially considering he'd be on the 2nd pairing. When Coburn is on the 2nd pairing, he looks like a total beast, heck when he's the #2 guy on the 1st pairing, he's a beast. He just can't be expected to be the puck-mover on a pairing, let alone the puck-mover on the #1 pairing, which is what the Flyers are asking him to do right now (he's paired w/ Grossmann as the #1 pairing and between the two of them, Coburn is clearly the one w/ better puck-moving skills, but it's still not a role he's suited for).

I think he'd be a great player for Vancouver, especially paired w/ a PMD like Bieksa.

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:03 AM
  #90
WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
What would you guys be willing to give up for Luongo?

And I consider myself pretty realistic when it comes to his value.

He would really help your squad. Still an elite goalie no question IMO. And the contract isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

(Extra pieces could be added depending on what they are)
I have tremendous respect for Luongo's on ice ability. He'd easily be the best goalie Philly has seen in a long time; that being said, the contract is really bad and makes me not want anything to do with him. If he retires early, we're talking about 8M-9M worth of cap penalties. If he doesn't retire early, we're talking about a 5.3M cap hit to a 40, 41, 42, & 43 year old goalie. At some point (potentially in the near future) Luongo is going to start to decline. If he was on a 5 year deal, that'd be OK, but he's not, it's 9 years. It's bad. And the headache with Bryz and his contract makes all Flyers fans want to avoid ridiculously long contracts to goalies; especially goalies who haven't played a single game yet for the Flyers. We have no clue what Luo looks like w/ this team in front of him. I expect he still looks really good, but it's just such a bad contract and such a dicey situation, I'd prefer to give up more for Schneider or even go after one of OTT's goalies or Bernier before I'd even think about Luo.

Like I said, I hope I haven't offended anyone, Luo is a fantastic goaltender, definitely still elite, but the contract scares me and I hope it would scare any Flyers fan after this Bryz ordeal.

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:09 AM
  #91
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
I have tremendous respect for Luongo's on ice ability. He'd easily be the best goalie Philly has seen in a long time; that being said, the contract is really bad and makes me not want anything to do with him. If he retires early, we're talking about 8M-9M worth of cap penalties. If he doesn't retire early, we're talking about a 5.3M cap hit to a 40, 41, 42, & 43 year old goalie. At some point (potentially in the near future) Luongo is going to start to decline. If he was on a 5 year deal, that'd be OK, but he's not, it's 9 years. It's bad. And the headache with Bryz and his contract makes all Flyers fans want to avoid ridiculously long contracts to goalies; especially goalies who haven't played a single game yet for the Flyers. We have no clue what Luo looks like w/ this team in front of him. I expect he still looks really good, but it's just such a bad contract and such a dicey situation, I'd prefer to give up more for Schneider or even go after one of OTT's goalies or Bernier before I'd even think about Luo.

Like I said, I hope I haven't offended anyone, Luo is a fantastic goaltender, definitely still elite, but the contract scares me and I hope it would scare any Flyers fan after this Bryz ordeal.
Actually that's not correct. The cap penalty is about 2 Mill p/yr I believe. The cap penalty is split between teams. You also have to consider the cap will rise (after it drops it will rise as the years go along) So the toll it will take on your cap won't be all that significant.

There is some real bonus's to the contract. The cap hit is outstanding for an elite goaltender, which would allow you to add while he is playing, then money wise the bulk of his contract is already paid, and he won't play forever, so when he retires, the cap hit cuts in half.

As for Luongo in his system, I know you guys are a more offensive team, and Lu generally is at his best when he is facing a ton of rubber and involved in alto of action, not saying you guys don't play defense or anything (lol) but I'm just saying if you do play an offensive system (not farmilliar with PHI's system) He would be great, and he is capable of carrying your team when not up to spec, aside from a few recent bad games. He has largerly carried us and won us alot of points since last year.

Goalies are also generally the position that has the least decline, and I could easily see him bringing elite goaltending for about another 7 years.


So the penalty really isn't all that bad, I think (not just trying to make it a selll job) but the benefit would be far greater than whatever the cap issues would be.

Plus he would come at a reasonable price, if our GM has any sense.

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:11 AM
  #92
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As a Flyer Fan, I like Lou and his goaltending but we simply cannot take on that contract....we are going to have to buy out our own crappy goalie contract this year or next and we cannot add Lou's to replace it.....

What we badly need is a high end D man like Elder....but as you guys have pointed out, you just signed him and I doubt he is going anywhere....though I would love to have him!

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03-10-2013, 04:33 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Actually that's not correct. The cap penalty is about 2 Mill p/yr I believe. The cap penalty is split between teams. You also have to consider the cap will rise (after it drops it will rise as the years go along) So the toll it will take on your cap won't be all that significant.

There is some real bonus's to the contract. The cap hit is outstanding for an elite goaltender, which would allow you to add while he is playing, then money wise the bulk of his contract is already paid, and he won't play forever, so when he retires, the cap hit cuts in half.

As for Luongo in his system, I know you guys are a more offensive team, and Lu generally is at his best when he is facing a ton of rubber and involved in alto of action, not saying you guys don't play defense or anything (lol) but I'm just saying if you do play an offensive system (not farmilliar with PHI's system) He would be great, and he is capable of carrying your team when not up to spec, aside from a few recent bad games. He has largerly carried us and won us alot of points since last year.

Goalies are also generally the position that has the least decline, and I could easily see him bringing elite goaltending for about another 7 years.
The cap penalty actually isn't split evenly between teams. The way it works is, you take the salary paid out for the years he played for your team and compare it to his cap hit, and then the difference is the potential amount of the penalty. For you guys, that amount is roughly 7M thus far (so if you trade him right now, you're potentially on the hook for 7M in penalties).

If the Flyers trade for him today and he retires @ age 40, we'd be responsible for 6M worth of penalties over 3 years (or 2M per year). Not terrible but also not good.

As far as the cap hit goes, it's decent, but I'd really rather pay the extra ~1M-1.5M to have a Lundqvist or Price type of contract with much less years; all those years just represent a massive risk at the end of the day.

As far as working in our system goes, I think you're probably right, that he'd be a good fit, but it's just too big of a gamble. Our GM thought Bryz was a solid fit too, and you see how that has worked out.

And as far as the 7 more years of elite goaltending goes, I'm not sure I'm buying that at all. For every Thomas, Brodeur, or Hasek, there are 2 or 3 Kiprusoffs/Gigueres/Vokouns/Theodores, who stop being elite/good around 35-36.

You make some good points, but that contract is just way too long for us to consider taking him on. I hope you can understand that, especially in the context of what we're going through w/ Bryzgalov.

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:48 AM
  #94
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
The cap penalty actually isn't split evenly between teams. The way it works is, you take the salary paid out for the years he played for your team and compare it to his cap hit, and then the difference is the potential amount of the penalty. For you guys, that amount is roughly 7M thus far (so if you trade him right now, you're potentially on the hook for 7M in penalties).

If the Flyers trade for him today and he retires @ age 40, we'd be responsible for 6M worth of penalties over 3 years (or 2M per year). Not terrible but also not good.

As far as the cap hit goes, it's decent, but I'd really rather pay the extra ~1M-1.5M to have a Lundqvist or Price type of contract with much less years; all those years just represent a massive risk at the end of the day.

As far as working in our system goes, I think you're probably right, that he'd be a good fit, but it's just too big of a gamble. Our GM thought Bryz was a solid fit too, and you see how that has worked out.

And as far as the 7 more years of elite goaltending goes, I'm not sure I'm buying that at all. For every Thomas, Brodeur, or Hasek, there are 2 or 3 Kiprusoffs/Gigueres/Vokouns/Theodores, who stop being elite/good around 35-36.

You make some good points, but that contract is just way too long for us to consider taking him on. I hope you can understand that, especially in the context of what we're going through w/ Bryzgalov.
Yeah I understand.

I don't think you are in a position to make the deal anyways, more likely in the summer if at all.

Just it makes sense for your team aside from the contract. I do understand your worry, as you mention Bryz and how that is working out.

As for the elite thing, I would argue Kipper is still right up there, and Luongo is one of the best of his generation, I don't think the same can be said for Theodore/Vokoun, more so Brodeur, Thomas, Hasek.

Anyways I just bring it up cause it would be cheap to get him IMO. B Prospect, 2nd RP, 3rd line calibre roster player.

Probably less, far less compared to Cory's price tag.

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03-10-2013, 11:13 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
cap geek says he doesnt have an NTC . Can you show us where it is?
It kicks in July 1st when his new contract also starts. Sure Gillis could pull a Holmgren and trade Edler prior to that new contract, but he's not a POS like Holmgren is so don't count on it.

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03-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Seems like both teams need a bit of a shakeup. How about something like this...

To Philadelphia:
Goalie (take your pick, not intending to make this a goalie debate thread)
Alex Edler
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Jakub Voracek
Sean Couturier
Braydon Coburn
1st round pick

Thoughts?
Edler+2nd is about equal to Coburn+1st. But your goalie is worth Voracek.. And Couturier?

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03-10-2013, 11:25 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by GranvilleIsland View Post
We have H. Sedin and Kesler. We don't need to be trading for Couturier. B. Schenn maybe but there is no way Philly moves him. Couturier is a future player who is still working out his game. We need players who can play a consistent role now.

So I wouldn't move Edler + a 1st for Couturier and Coburn. Too much risk in running Couturier as a 2nd line center or giving him top six minutes over a more proven and complete player. Example: Voracek would make more sense for us now. Couturier would be good for the future. But I think the Canucks need to pick a plan and run with it no more building for the future while trying to compete.

Also from Philly's perspective I'm looking at Edler. You know what kind of dman you're getting but with his recent injury history and inconsistent play. Do you really give up one of your prized young players for him? Nope.
I am also looking towards the future, if we inject some quality youth into our lineup we may become a team that has staying power. What do we need right now? a defensive #3 C, Couturier can fill that role and grow from there.

From Philly's perspective (which I obviously can't know for sure), yes it would hurt to lose a guy like Couturier, but getting a top 30 defender in his prime is something quite difficult to pass up seeing their situation on the backend

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03-10-2013, 11:28 AM
  #98
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Gillis signed Edler to a contract extension with a NTC. He's not getting dealt.
half our team is signed to a NTC, I'm just talking hypothetical value

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03-10-2013, 11:31 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
half our team is signed to a NTC, I'm just talking hypothetical value
Fair enough, it's just not a realistic idea.

Hypothetically, I'd be open to moving Edler and Schneider for Coburn, Couturier and Read.

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03-10-2013, 11:32 AM
  #100
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Want no part of luongo. Like at all. Plus his contract sucks.

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