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Old
03-07-2013, 10:19 PM
  #101
slappipappi
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
If he isn't signed to an extension by the trade deadline, he's as good as gone (via trade) IMO.

He may very well re-sign here in the summer, but there are no guarantees in that regard.
Well, I believe everyone has agreed they will table negotiations until after the season.

Plus, he can't be traded without his permission.

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03-08-2013, 12:03 AM
  #102
Shawnofthedeadz
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Stemps will cool off soon, best to move him now, Baertschi can easily replace his minutes. Id like to have a 2nd in this draft as well and Stamps can get us that.
I disagree, Baertschi hasn't played that well to warrant that much ice time. He has been out with our skilled forwards yet has very little to show for it. He just doesn't look ready for the NHL and it seems like it was a mistake to keep him up here. Argue all you want about him not getting enough ice time but that is not true. Lets look at Blake Comeau, who averages 50 seconds less ice time. He also averages the second most ice time on the PK/G out of all forwards on the team (Sven hasn't played on the PK.) Offensively, Blake averages 48 seconds less time on the PP/G and starts only 48.4% time in the offensive zone unlike Baertschi's high of 52.2% which is highest of all forwards.

Compared to Blake Comaeu, a player generally disrespected on these forums, Baertschi doesn't even match up. Worse, if you look at the Relative Corsi (Measures the difference in Corsi between a player's on-ice performance and his team's performance when he's on the bench.) Baertschi is a -13.2 That Is Bad! He is the worst on our team! (Just to be fair, Comaeu is the second worst on our team.) What's funny is you would trade our best player in terms of Relative Corsi, 11.6, Lee Stepniak. (Side note: While everyone is pretty confident, myself included, that Lee will cool down we can never be for sure.)

Now I want to be very clear here. I think Baertschi is very talented. I think one day he could play in the NHL but not with his current level of play. Baertschi is not ready for the NHL and should be sent down to the AHL to help his growth.

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03-08-2013, 12:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Stemps will cool off soon, best to move him now, Baertschi can easily replace his minutes. Id like to have a 2nd in this draft as well and Stamps can get us that.
Personally I would wait until we get an offer like 2nd + solid prospect or a 1st for Stemps + Nemisz/later round pick until the deadline. There is going to be very few sellers anyone who has an extra player will be able to command a hell of proce. This team has depth for the first time that I can remember and I understand people want Sven to succeed but to this point he hasn't beaten any of the top 9 in order to take their spot, it won't hurt him at all to go to the ahl and get some seasoning. Most top prospect need a year in the ahl and I think it is evident in Sven game that he needs to be the go to guy and get some confidence and work on his puck possession. He will still be the first call up but he will learn alot more.

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03-08-2013, 12:59 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by MckenziesTimbits View Post
Detroit also has an easier time signing free agents.
Not this past offseason.

Calgary nabbed Hudler and Wideman.

Detroit got Brunner (who nobody else wanted, so he doesn't count as a "Detroit got him") and Samuelsson (who was likely not a priority for others and had already played here).

Detroit tried to get Suter, Parise, Salo, and Schultz on the market (that I know of), and Holland negotiated with Hudler before deciding (I've heard conflicting reports) that a) Hudler wasn't worth more cap than Franzen, or b) offering a maximum of $3.3m (term unspecified, possibly also a problem)

Personally, I'd rather have Hudler and Wideman than just Samuelsson. Hudler alone is better; Wideman would just be a bonus.

Detroit was also rejected by Vokoun when he left Florida for Washington.

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03-08-2013, 01:08 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Detroit was also rejected by Vokoun when he left Florida for Washington.
I believe the Wings (and most other teams interested) only offered Vokoun a one year contract. Pittsburgh was the only team to offer two years, which was why he went with them.

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03-08-2013, 01:37 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
I believe the Wings (and most other teams interested) only offered Vokoun a one year contract. Pittsburgh was the only team to offer two years, which was why he went with them.
He is talking about the year before when he signed a 1 year deal with Washington.

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03-08-2013, 02:10 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
He is talking about the year before when he signed a 1 year deal with Washington.
Oh right. I don't know how I missed that. My bad.

But if I remember correctly, Vokoun chose the Caps because not only were they cup contenders, he felt they provided a better opportunity for a starter role considering they had just traded Varlamov away and Neuvirth was still very raw. The Wings made it clear that Vokoun would be the back up behind Howard.

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03-08-2013, 08:04 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not this past offseason.

Calgary nabbed Hudler and Wideman.
Because they offered more money than anyone else.

You can't build a team signing UFA"s to bigger contracts than anyone else will give.

You can fill in a few spots with carefully selected UFA's, but they can't be your core players. You'll run out of cap space.

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03-08-2013, 08:14 AM
  #109
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Well, I believe everyone has agreed they will table negotiations until after the season.

Plus, he can't be traded without his permission.
He's on record as saying he'd waive the NMC if asked.

Probably a moot point if the Flames are in a hunt for a playoff spot.

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03-08-2013, 01:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Detroit also has an outstanding history of drafting well, not only in the 1st round but late in the draft as well.

Something that Calgary (and most other teams) don't quite have.

So Detroit is a poor example.

the red wings have a terrible history of drafting in the first round.

and the red wings show good asset management. not just good drafting. plus they had years where they were terrible. you needs good starting point to do what the red wings have done. its arguable the flames don't have that

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03-08-2013, 01:58 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
the red wings have a terrible history of drafting in the first round.

and the red wings show good asset management. not just good drafting. plus they had years where they were terrible. you needs good starting point to do what the red wings have done. its arguable the flames don't have that
The Red Wings are good at prospect development, something the Flames are notoriously bad at.

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03-08-2013, 03:09 PM
  #112
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It's both. The Flames were terrible at drafting and worse at developing. Players were either left to rot forever in the minors, or rushed to the NHL. Rarely, was there some semblance of balance.

The Wings on the other hand, just leave all of their prospects in the minors for years and years. Over-ripen is the word a lot of Wings fan use. But even if guys struggle in the AHL, they usually still get a call up at some point and are given an extended look at the NHL level.

But the Flames drafting has improved by leaps and bounds so far. At least on paper it has. We'll see if they can match that with advancements in the developing process too.

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03-10-2013, 12:23 AM
  #113
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Lets just get it done! I'm so sick of Iggy and kipper pulling this team along but they are holding them back. They work hard but seem to mimick the slow play of the team. Feaster please trade them to the teams they deserve!!!! Boston, Toronto, Philly, Pittsburgh, SanJose! Anywhere but Edmonton will do... I hope Feaster will realize this soon ( after we lose to LA)

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03-10-2013, 09:56 AM
  #114
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Agreed. But, I think it needs to be accepted that Iginla is really declining now. He's still a pure sniper, but he doesn't dominate anymore. They won't get back the moon for him, and he isn't making a difference any more. Just trade him so he can win. I have a gut/psychic guess that he really wants to leave now, he's looking forward to being asked to waive his NMC, and I think it's sad, because he won't ask for a trade, and King/Feaster will never let him go before the deadline. They're too worried about their image in town.

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03-10-2013, 10:56 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NightDuck View Post
Agreed. But, I think it needs to be accepted that Iginla is really declining now. He's still a pure sniper, but he doesn't dominate anymore. They won't get back the moon for him, and he isn't making a difference any more. Just trade him so he can win. I have a gut/psychic guess that he really wants to leave now, he's looking forward to being asked to waive his NMC, and I think it's sad, because he won't ask for a trade, and King/Feaster will never let him go before the deadline. They're too worried about their image in town.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. And the kind of scenario you describe (Iggy staying because management can't bring themselves to trade him) rarely plays out well.

I like what the Kings did for Hrudey last night (Although he should have worn the ribbon) and the same could be done for Iggy - trade him for assets now, let him win when he has the energy and skill level to contribute to a cup win and honour his efforts here in Calgary when he retires.

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03-10-2013, 11:20 AM
  #116
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It's impossible to know how Feaster views this team. If this was a real season and they were 1 point out of 15th at the 41 game mark, what would be the plan?

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03-10-2013, 01:41 PM
  #117
Shawnofthedeadz
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Originally Posted by NightDuck View Post
Agreed. But, I think it needs to be accepted that Iginla is really declining now. He's still a pure sniper, but he doesn't dominate anymore. They won't get back the moon for him, and he isn't making a difference any more. Just trade him so he can win. I have a gut/psychic guess that he really wants to leave now, he's looking forward to being asked to waive his NMC, and I think it's sad, because he won't ask for a trade, and King/Feaster will never let him go before the deadline. They're too worried about their image in town.
I disagree completely, Iginla's skill is almost as high as when he was in his prime. The only problem is he has been a notoriously slow starter the last 5 years for some ridiculous reason. If he didn't have these starts he would be right up there in the top 20 for point production. Even last night, in a back to back game, one where you expect an older player to struggle more, Iginla fought hard. He was able to push and beat Doughty off the puck multiple times and control the play down low.

Also, Iginla should not be traded. We should mimic a rebuild similar to Ottawa, who kept their franchise player, Alfredsson. Blowing up the team, which is what a lot of people seem to want does not work. I do not want to watch crap for the next 5-7 years. I honestly do not care if the Oilers get the first overall for the next decade.

If we just make a couple of smart trades we can be right back in there. While I'm not an expert at creating trades, an example which I personally would like to happen is, which may or not be of equal value is:

Jay Bouwmeester + Mark Giordano + Curtis Glencross + 1st for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn

Our lines would then be:

Cammalleri - B.Schenn - Iginla
Cervenka - Backlund - Hudler
Tanguay - Stajan - Stepniak
Comeau - Begin - McGrattan

Wideman - Butler
L. Schenn - Brodie
Coburn - Sairch/Smith/Babchuk

Make another trade, say Tanguay for a 1st, put Baertschi in there and we have a young competitive team again.

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03-10-2013, 01:50 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I disagree completely, Iginla's skill is almost as high as when he was in his prime. The only problem is he has been a notoriously slow starter the last 5 years for some ridiculous reason. If he didn't have these starts he would be right up there in the top 20 for point production. Even last night, in a back to back game, one where you expect an older player to struggle more, Iginla fought hard. He was able to push and beat Doughty off the puck multiple times and control the play down low.

Also, Iginla should not be traded. We should mimic a rebuild similar to Ottawa, who kept their franchise player, Alfredsson. Blowing up the team, which is what a lot of people seem to want does not work. I do not want to watch crap for the next 5-7 years. I honestly do not care if the Oilers get the first overall for the next decade.

If we just make a couple of smart trades we can be right back in there. While I'm not an expert at creating trades, an example which I personally would like to happen is, which may or not be of equal value is:

Jay Bouwmeester + Mark Giordano + Curtis Glencross + 1st for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn

Our lines would then be:

Cammalleri - B.Schenn - Iginla
Cervenka - Backlund - Hudler
Tanguay - Stajan - Stepniak
Comeau - Begin - McGrattan

Wideman - Butler
L. Schenn - Brodie
Coburn - Sairch/Smith/Babchuk

Make another trade, say Tanguay for a 1st, put Baertschi in there and we have a young competitive team again.
The problem is that the Ottawa rebuild was possible die to 3-4 years of great drafting before hand and several great trades, we don't have the prospect pool that Ottawa did, we can't simply do the same thing.

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03-10-2013, 01:54 PM
  #119
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Bouw, Gio, Glen, AND a 1st for the Schenn bros and Coburn?

That is straight up the worst trade I have ever seen (seriously) proposed. I'm speechless.

Top line defenseman have big value on the market right now. Schenn is obviously the only prize there and it's not even close to worth it.

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03-10-2013, 02:11 PM
  #120
Shawnofthedeadz
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Bouw, Gio, Glen, AND a 1st for the Schenn bros and Coburn?

That is straight up the worst trade I have ever seen (seriously) proposed. I'm speechless.

Top line defenseman have big value on the market right now. Schenn is obviously the only prize there and it's not even close to worth it.
Luke has been extremely solid for the flyers this season. Not only would he bring us a ton of grit (he has 100 hits so far) but he would make us younger. He is a plus player on a team with Bryz and he has been able to handled 20+ minutes of ice time / game. The schenn brothers are both very young, both very physical and could easily both become top line players. Yes we lost a bit of skill but we gain in grit, youth, and the potential for a better player. Maybe trading our first was excessive but I don't think philly would be willing to bite without it. Also, both were 5th overall picks, I highly doubt the flames draft better players.

Maybe exclude the first overall then, or if we acquire a first from someone else we could package it in. That way we keep our first which will probably be more valuable than a playoff teams first.

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03-10-2013, 02:13 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I disagree completely, Iginla's skill is almost as high as when he was in his prime. The only problem is he has been a notoriously slow starter the last 5 years for some ridiculous reason. If he didn't have these starts he would be right up there in the top 20 for point production. Even last night, in a back to back game, one where you expect an older player to struggle more, Iginla fought hard. He was able to push and beat Doughty off the puck multiple times and control the play down low.

Also, Iginla should not be traded. We should mimic a rebuild similar to Ottawa, who kept their franchise player, Alfredsson. Blowing up the team, which is what a lot of people seem to want does not work. I do not want to watch crap for the next 5-7 years. I honestly do not care if the Oilers get the first overall for the next decade.

If we just make a couple of smart trades we can be right back in there. While I'm not an expert at creating trades, an example which I personally would like to happen is, which may or not be of equal value is:

Jay Bouwmeester + Mark Giordano + Curtis Glencross + 1st for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn

Our lines would then be:

Cammalleri - B.Schenn - Iginla
Cervenka - Backlund - Hudler
Tanguay - Stajan - Stepniak
Comeau - Begin - McGrattan

Wideman - Butler
L. Schenn - Brodie
Coburn - Sairch/Smith/Babchuk

Make another trade, say Tanguay for a 1st, put Baertschi in there and we have a young competitive team again.
I don't want them to trade Iginla as part of a rebuild. I want them to trade him because I want to see him win. I don't advocate tearing down and tanking to rebuild. I don't advocate free agent frenzies to rebuild, though signing a corner stone player in july in the vein of Chara is something I would do.

I also don't waste my time thinking blockbuster trades can be orchestrated at any time to prevent a rebuild. Specifically, your trade doesn't make any sense for Philly and is so dreamlike in getting rid of and acquiring what you want for Calgary.

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03-10-2013, 02:16 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Luke has been extremely solid for the flyers this season. Not only would he bring us a ton of grit (he has 100 hits so far) but he would make us younger. He is a plus player on a team with Bryz and he has been able to handled 20+ minutes of ice time / game. The schenn brothers are both very young, both very physical and could easily both become top line players. Yes we lost a bit of skill but we gain in grit, youth, and the potential for a better player. Maybe trading our first was excessive but I don't think philly would be willing to bite without it. Also, both were 5th overall picks, I highly doubt the flames draft better players.

Maybe exclude the first overall then, or if we acquire a first from someone else we could package it in. That way we keep our first which will probably be more valuable than a playoff teams first.
Just in terms of assets it doesn't make sense for us. Jbo,Gio,GlenX can all get 1st + prospect (level of prospects may be different) so we are giving up 4st + 3 prospects for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn now whether or not they are worth it is another debate but with those 4 1sts + 3 prospects we could build an extremely deep prospect pool that could give us the base to build an elite team.

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03-10-2013, 02:28 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Just in terms of assets it doesn't make sense for us. Jbo,Gio,GlenX can all get 1st + prospect (level of prospects may be different) so we are giving up 4st + 3 prospects for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn now whether or not they are worth it is another debate but with those 4 1sts + 3 prospects we could build an extremely deep prospect pool that could give us the base to build an elite team.
Spares me the burden of replying, exactly what I was going to say. I'm not saying the Schenn bros aren't good, that's just too much to give up from a Flames perspective.

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03-10-2013, 02:37 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Just in terms of assets it doesn't make sense for us. Jbo,Gio,GlenX can all get 1st + prospect (level of prospects may be different) so we are giving up 4st + 3 prospects for Brayden Schenn + Luke Schenn + Braydon Coburn now whether or not they are worth it is another debate but with those 4 1sts + 3 prospects we could build an extremely deep prospect pool that could give us the base to build an elite team.
The problem is 4 first round picks have less than a 50% chance to pan out. Plus given the flames track record at drafting I would say it's even lower. This way, we speed up the rebuild, stay competitive and are more likely to get players who pan out.

In the end, I wasn't trying to show what we should trade for (though in my mind getting the Schenn brothers would be awesome) but that we could get good prospects with other pieces and that trading Iginla becomes excessive. We only need and can take so many prospects and picks. We just need a couple to turn this team around and that can happen quickly. Plus we need a veteran presence to lead and teach the kids. Jarome could do that for us.

Also personally, I would much rather have the record of staying on one NHL team for my whole career than be traded and win the cup else where. Shane Doan agrees with me, and is the big reason why he chose to stay in Phoenix even though he got tons of offers last off season. Since Iginla and Doan are close friends, I feel Iginla thinks the same way. The only reason he said he is willing to waive his NTC is because of all the pressure on him from the fans and the media.

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03-10-2013, 02:45 PM
  #125
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The problem is 4 first round picks have less than a 50% chance to pan out. Plus given the flames track record at drafting I would say it's even lower. This way, we speed up the rebuild, stay competitive and are more likely to get players who pan out.

In the end, I wasn't trying to show what we should trade for (though in my mind getting the Schenn brothers would be awesome) but that we could get good prospects with other pieces and that trading Iginla becomes excessive. We only need and can take so many prospects and picks. We just need a couple to turn this team around and that can happen quickly. Plus we need a veteran presence to lead and teach the kids. Jarome could do that for us.

Also personally, I would much rather have the record of staying on one NHL team for my whole career than be traded and win the cup else where. Shane Doan agrees with me, and is the big reason why he chose to stay in Phoenix even though he got tons of offers last off season. Since Iginla and Doan are close friends, I feel Iginla thinks the same way. The only reason he said he is willing to waive his NTC is because of all the pressure on him from the fans and the media.
I disagree that it speeds up the rebuild as all we have done is eliminate our defense at the expense of our offense, so then we have to trade forwards for defensemen and we end up with a team of rookies.

And one of those pick is our pick this year and at this rate it could be a top 5 pick which has a greater than 50% of becoming an nhl player. As for the other 3 first rounders, sure they are not sure things but I have liked our drafting under Feaster so I would rather take that risk and try to build our team from within so we don't have to overpay every team and UFA to come. At some point we have to develop our own players we can't simply be trading for other teams players all the time.

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