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Old
03-09-2013, 10:37 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
With all due respect this is one of the poorest apples and oranges arguments I've seen here.

Minny has Suter in the lineup who would beat all in any category here, there, or elsewhere. Minny also has a better complement of D period.

Next, Gilbert and Petry are identical sizes. Petry isn't stronger than Gilbert which is pretty much a fiction.

I'll give you that he's younger. But Gilbert had pitched 31, and 45pt seasons by the time he was Petry's age.
The only thing Suter is higher in is TOI actually (and points of course). You're grasping at straws and making assumptions to try and justify hating on Petry, just like you were trying to do for Brown

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03-09-2013, 10:44 PM
  #52
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Don't you guys think Gilbert is benefitting from the same system many are saying Schultz benefitted from while in Minnesota?

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03-09-2013, 10:45 PM
  #53
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The only thing Suter is higher in is TOI actually. You're grasping at straws and making assumptions to try and justify hating on Petry, just like you were trying to do for Brown
Are you now trying to question in any meaningful way that Suter is the best D on either team by a country mile? jebus what kind of discussion are we having here.

I hope you know also that "real time" stats such as hits stats are not standardized stats and there is not consistent threshold from one rink to another where something is considered a hit. Theres not even standardiztion in the stat from year to year. Those stats are the least substantiated stats in hockey. Take with large grain of salt.

The hit stats as kept would suggest you to believe that the Oilers have three of the heaviest hitter D's in the league this year. I'll suggest to you that this is largely fiction and more an edifice of what trained monkey is keeping that particular stat this year.

The NHL SHOULD do a better job in qualifying, training, standardizing such stats but the real time stats are largely ignored as being worthy of such circumspection. Most people you hear tend to acknowledge they're poorly tabulated stats.

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03-09-2013, 10:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Don't you guys think Gilbert is benefitting from the same system many are saying Schultz benefitted from while in Minnesota?
I am saying that relative to what a god awful team Gilbert played here for many years he put up much better numbers than N Schultz has done here.

Gilbert actually rarely struggled in +/- or GA to the degree N Schultz is this year. I did say N SChultz would look much worse here and that his results in Minny were more a product of the system.

The one clear diference is one is a PMD, and perfectly capable of jumping offence and contributing, and the other is in over his head at any such request.

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03-09-2013, 10:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Are you now trying to question in any meaningful way that Suter is the best D on either team by a country mile? jebus what kind of discussion are we having here.

I hope you know also that "real time" stats such as hits stats are not standardized stats and there is not consistent threshold from one rink to another where something is considered a hit. Theres not even standardiztion in the stat from year to year. Those stats are the least substantiated stats in hockey. Take with large grain of salt.

The hit stats as kept would suggest you to believe that the Oilers have three of the heaviest hitter D's in the league this year. I'll suggest to you that this is largely fiction and more an edifice of what trained monkey is keeping that particular stat this year.

The NHL SHOULD do a better job in qualifying, training, standardizing such stats but the real time stats are largely ignored as being worthy of such circumspection. Most people you hear tend to acknowledge they're poorly tabulated stats.
I never said anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that Petry is higher in certain stats than Suter. I know they're not well recorded, but you don't seem to want to go by the way they play, or their stats, so I don't know what else to tell you. Petry might be less consistent than Gilbert, but he is a better dman. Especially when Smid is their partner

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03-09-2013, 10:55 PM
  #56
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Worth pointing out. In 5 full seasons here Gilbert was a combined -27 while playing huge minutes and in some of those years actually managing to have + numbers.

So in about 340GP here Gilbert was -27. An average of -5/yr. On a club that was -87differential one year. Almost astounding that Gilberts +/- was contained on a club so brutal.

Conversely Schultz is -15 in a 24GP sample this year. Worst in league ftr.

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03-09-2013, 11:26 PM
  #57
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I wasn't a fan of the Gilbert trade either when it happened.

Pretty much agree with the #3 for #5 assessment.

Oilers brass thought they had an up and coming puck mover in Petry and wanted more balance... another stay at home type like Smid.

Whitney/Petry/Potter... puck movers

Smid/NSchultz/Sutton/Peckham... stay at home/physical dmen

Obviously things haven't gone as expected.

Whitney has been for the most part crap. Potter was always crap. Petry has regressed. In short, none of the puck movers from last year are decent puck movers.

Smid has been ok but not as solid as he was in the past, N Schultz has looked over his head with the responsibilities he's been given, Sutton is gone forever, Peckham has injuries and other "issues".

On paper I see the rationale for the trade. IF Whitney would have rebounded and IF Petry would have taken a step forward then the loss of Gilbert would have been less noticeable. They haven't though and the only thing keeping it from looking even worse is Justin Schultz falling into their laps taking up the offensive slack on the blueline.

The Oilers easily lost that trade and without JSchultz in the lineup there would be a monumental lack of offense and puck moving ability from the blueline this season.

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03-10-2013, 12:13 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Don't you guys think Gilbert is benefitting from the same system many are saying Schultz benefitted from while in Minnesota?
don't try to bring logic here. Some of the posters in this thread were over the moon with the original trade

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03-10-2013, 12:30 PM
  #59
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Was just killing time reading through various teams' boards. Quick thoughts from a Minnesota perspective.

Nick Schultz is what he is. An average size defender that skates at an above average level. Generally fairly sound positionally. Any physical contact is virtually non-existent and he's among the league worst at moving the puck. If you're looking for a clean breakout from him, forget it. He patented the no-look, panic ring the puck around the boards here in Minnesota. He's a decent solidifying type of player on the bottom pairing but truth be told, there's a lot of organizations that have multiple players that can fill in for his role and not miss a beat. Biggest complaint about his time here is that he'll never give you any more than a decent game.

As far as what I've seen from Gilbert here in Minnesota, I've loved the trade (sorry to say for you guys). With that said, you're going to see a greater swing in terms of consistency. He'll have some clunker of games and decisions here and there but he'll also have moments that back up his position in a top 4 pairing.

So I guess it probably depends on what you're looking for in terms of your defenseman. For Minnesota, Gilbert provides elements in his game that are not readily available. Whereas in this system, Schultz was/is a replacement level player.

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03-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #60
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Shultz is dead last in the league with a -15 plus/minus.

awesome.
Gilbert is worst on the Wild with -8 so not much better.

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03-10-2013, 12:38 PM
  #61
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I don't remember this many people being down on the trade at the time. It stunk when it was made and has amazed by seeming even worse as time goes by.

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03-10-2013, 12:44 PM
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I think everyone here is remembering Tom Gilbert with rose colored glasses. The guy was a giveaway machine, hurt himself whenever he tried to play physical and was pretty much useless in our own zone.

The problem with Nick Schultz is that he is being played too much and in situations where he shouldn't. The real question to me is, how in the hell would our defense be better off with Gilbert, considering we would then have Gilbert, J. Schultz, Petry, Potter, and Whitney as offense first (or offense only) guys and Smid, Peckham and Fistric as defense guys. There is little enough balance on this team as it is.

Even if Gilbert IS better, I don't think he's much better, and Schultz fit the team needs we had at the time.

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03-10-2013, 12:47 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Worth pointing out. In 5 full seasons here Gilbert was a combined -27 while playing huge minutes and in some of those years actually managing to have + numbers.

So in about 340GP here Gilbert was -27. An average of -5/yr. On a club that was -87differential one year. Almost astounding that Gilberts +/- was contained on a club so brutal.

Conversely Schultz is -15 in a 24GP sample this year. Worst in league ftr.
I think its also worth noting that Gilbert played a lot of soft minutes. He's never been tossed out against top players like N. Schultz has.

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03-10-2013, 12:48 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I think everyone here is remembering Tom Gilbert with rose colored glasses. The guy was a giveaway machine, hurt himself whenever he tried to play physical and was pretty much useless in our own zone.

The problem with Nick Schultz is that he is being played too much and in situations where he shouldn't. The real question to me is, how in the hell would our defense be better off with Gilbert, considering we would then have Gilbert, J. Schultz, Petry, Potter, and Whitney as offense first (or offense only) guys and Smid, Peckham and Fistric as defense guys. There is little enough balance on this team as it is.

Even if Gilbert IS better, I don't think he's much better, and Schultz fit the team needs we had at the time.
Team needs at the time? You mean we needed a small dman with no physical play, no outlet pass, no ability to move the puck that gets beat easily?

As far as I'm concerned take Gilbert out of the equation, the guy we got just stinks terribly, as in 6th dman at best nhl calibre. He's the Horcoff version of a Dman.

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03-10-2013, 12:49 PM
  #65
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I think the main thing people are probably remembering is the beginning of last season where Gilbert looked like a legit #2. He wasn't making as many turnovers and was even throwing his weight around.

But then he got injured and when he was returned, he was back to being a rich man's Grebeshkov.

He's looked looked like the latter in the Minnesota games I've seen.

I'm not too worried about losing him.

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03-10-2013, 12:54 PM
  #66
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Short memories some of you have. We generaly hated "Tammy" Gilbert when he was traded. Not a softer d-man in this league.

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03-10-2013, 12:56 PM
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Team needs at the time? You mean we needed a small dman with no physical play, no outlet pass, no ability to move the puck that gets beat easily?

As far as I'm concerned take Gilbert out of the equation, the guy we got just stinks terribly, as in 6th dman at best nhl calibre. He's the Horcoff version of a Dman.
Speaking of Horcoff, isn't it funny how the team went from being average to bad as soon as we lost him to the injury reserve?

To me, your description of Schultz sounds an awful lot like Gilbert. Gilbert also seemed to be hurt pretty much all the time, and was a mongoloid in our own zone. Schultz isn't a top pair d-man, and that's where he has been playing, unfortunately. I think he's been exposed as a 4/5 d-man playing top pair. But Gilbert is a #4 at best as well, I don't see why anyone would be missing him. And I think the biggest thing to remember is that we got a much more durable d-man, and a more consistent one. I will give you that Gilbert could play at a higher level...but not for long, and he was horrible more than he was great.

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03-10-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I think the main thing people are probably remembering is the beginning of last season where Gilbert looked like a legit #2. He wasn't making as many turnovers and was even throwing his weight around.

But then he got injured and when he was returned, he was back to being a rich man's Grebeshkov.

He's looked looked like the latter in the Minnesota games I've seen.

I'm not too worried about losing him.
this.

The frustrating thing about Gilbert is that he could have been a very good dman but he is just too laid back. If he was a Russian, we would be questioning his charactor.

I saw him vs the Flames a few weeks ago. I really focussed on him and he never did one thing that made me think "boy, I miss him"

He is incredibly average at everything, good at nothing, bad at nothing.

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03-10-2013, 01:17 PM
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The misconception around here is that it's Gilbert vs. Schultz. It's more like Gilbert vs. Petry.
IMO, the only reason that this trade was made was because of Petry's emergence last season. The mistake isn't necessarily the trade itself, the mistake was Tambellini banking on Petry emerging into a top pairing defenseman this season.
Schultz is what he is. A bottom pairing guy playing in a 2nd pairing role. Just like in years past, every defenseman is playing a pairing too high for their abilities.
It's a shame that management hasn't recognized this by now.

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03-10-2013, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Speaking of Horcoff, isn't it funny how the team went from being average to bad as soon as we lost him to the injury reserve?

To me, your description of Schultz sounds an awful lot like Gilbert. Gilbert also seemed to be hurt pretty much all the time, and was a mongoloid in our own zone. Schultz isn't a top pair d-man, and that's where he has been playing, unfortunately. I think he's been exposed as a 4/5 d-man playing top pair. But Gilbert is a #4 at best as well, I don't see why anyone would be missing him. And I think the biggest thing to remember is that we got a much more durable d-man, and a more consistent one. I will give you that Gilbert could play at a higher level...but not for long, and he was horrible more than he was great.
Gilbert was always hurt? When he was here he played 82 games 3 times, and 79 games once. You're clueless.

Gilbert was capable of making an outlet pass, and he looked to be getting a lot stronger last year. I knew it was a bad trade from day 1, and it's become pretty obviously bad now. Not a complete catastrophe, but we essentially traded a 3 for a 4/5.

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03-10-2013, 01:23 PM
  #71
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The Oilers don't need Gilbert's physical dominance anymore that we have Brown.

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03-10-2013, 01:40 PM
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Gilbert was always hurt? When he was here he played 82 games 3 times, and 79 games once. You're clueless.

Gilbert was capable of making an outlet pass, and he looked to be getting a lot stronger last year. I knew it was a bad trade from day 1, and it's become pretty obviously bad now. Not a complete catastrophe, but we essentially traded a 3 for a 4/5.
Earlier, he wasn't always hurt. The last two years, it always seemed like he had some nagging injury.

He looked stronger last year, again, until he hurt his back. Gilbert is not a number 3. He is a 4. The only benefit to his game is the outlet pass you mention, but we have Justin Schultz and Whitney for outlet passes (both passes are significatnly better than Gilbert's), and Petry as well as an offense first guy, although he has taken a small step back this year. I'd love to see Gilbert's plus minus if he were playing here in Schultz' position. Like I said earlier, you're remembering the good of Gilbert, and forgetting the bad.

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03-10-2013, 01:53 PM
  #73
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I don't remember this many people being down on the trade at the time. It stunk when it was made and has amazed by seeming even worse as time goes by.
Well I was certainly opposed to the trade when it happened.

Frankly I was disgusted that a team that had determined Gilbert was useful enough to play 26mins suddenly felt he was expendable and that we didn't need his services at all.

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03-10-2013, 01:58 PM
  #74
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just another Tambo trade. "meh' at best, and closer to a slight loss. he has yet to win a trade, and yet to take a risk. the picture of inept.

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03-10-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
The misconception around here is that it's Gilbert vs. Schultz. It's more like Gilbert vs. Petry.
IMO, the only reason that this trade was made was because of Petry's emergence last season. The mistake isn't necessarily the trade itself, the mistake was Tambellini banking on Petry emerging into a top pairing defenseman this season.
Schultz is what he is. A bottom pairing guy playing in a 2nd pairing role. Just like in years past, every defenseman is playing a pairing too high for their abilities.
It's a shame that management hasn't recognized this by now.
And the Petry we had last year isn't the real Petry, just like the one we have now isn't the real Petry either. We won't know what we have for at least another year or two. That's normal for guys just entering the league, especially defenseman. You would think Tambo would know that...

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