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2013 Draft Discussion (Mar. 29 article, post #976)

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Old
03-10-2013, 03:29 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Mantha in the 2nd? He's projected to go mid 1st round.
Plenty of guys are projected to go in the first round but fall out. Look at some mock drafts from years past. If they aren't sure thing top 10 picks, anyone could be taken in the second round. I'm not saying it will happen, I am just saying ideal for me would be Jones first (or Nurse if Jones is gone) then a guy like Mantha or De La Rose in the second. If we have #3 pick we'll have the #33 pick too. Not too much of a stretch to think a guy falls from a mid first rounder to an early second rounder. Happens every year to a handful of guys.

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03-10-2013, 03:34 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Plenty of guys are projected to go in the first round but fall out. Look at some mock drafts from years past. If they aren't sure thing top 10 picks, anyone could be taken in the second round. I'm not saying it will happen, I am just saying ideal for me would be Jones first (or Nurse if Jones is gone) then a guy like Mantha or De La Rose in the second. If we have #3 pick we'll have the #33 pick too. Not too much of a stretch to think a guy falls from a mid first rounder to an early second rounder. Happens every year to a handful of guys.
I understand that, but mantha is not a guy who's going to drop out of the 1st. He has 48 goals in 63 games and has all the tools. I see him going no later than 20.

I really don't know how he's not being talked about more tbh.

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03-10-2013, 03:37 PM
  #503
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I believe both briere and Coburn can return is 1st rounders if we decide to sell at the deadline. Also there is always players who fall in the draft. If we could somehow end up with 2 or best case 3 first rounders we would restock this horrible farm system in one draft. Also Nurse is starting to get a lot of attention, and I wouldn't mind him over any other defender other than jones. NHL mock drafts had him in the top 6 if I remember correctly.

Also I don't really anticipate us trading Coburn and briere. Briere in my books is much more likely to go if we sell off

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03-10-2013, 03:43 PM
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I believe both briere and Coburn can return is 1st rounders if we decide to sell at the deadline. Also there is always players who fall in the draft. If we could somehow end up with 2 or best case 3 first rounders we would restock this horrible farm system in one draft. Also Nurse is starting to get a lot of attention, and I wouldn't mind him over any other defender other than jones. NHL mock drafts had him in the top 6 if I remember correctly.

Also I don't really anticipate us trading Coburn and briere. Briere in my books is much more likely to go if we sell off
Unless that's a high 1st and we are getting back a young goalie who can play soon, I wouldn't trade Coburn for that

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03-10-2013, 03:47 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Unless that's a high 1st and we are getting back a young goalie who can play soon, I wouldn't trade Coburn for that
I didn't mean that's all we would get from trading Coburn. He would probably get you a 1st + good prospect. Maybe Ottawa would be a good place for Coburn 1st+bishop for Coburn. I know it most likely will never happen but it's not a really bad proposal

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03-10-2013, 03:56 PM
  #506
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Coburn to FLA for their 1st + markstrom

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03-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Coburn to FLA for their 1st + markstrom
We'd probably have to add Briere and Stolarz minimum to get both, I would think.

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03-10-2013, 04:00 PM
  #508
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I'm okay with that.

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03-10-2013, 04:04 PM
  #509
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FLA doesn't make that trade

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03-10-2013, 04:07 PM
  #510
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FLA doesn't make that trade
Oh I know they don't. I'm just saying we'd have to add a LOT to get it.

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03-10-2013, 04:11 PM
  #511
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Bigger trade :

To FLA
Coburn
Flyers 1st
Stolarz
Laughton
The Klotz

To Phi
Campbell
Florida's 1st
Markstrom

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03-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #512
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Why does Florida trade their young up coming netminder? There only other option is Theodore...

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03-10-2013, 04:20 PM
  #513
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They then trade for luongo

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:22 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
Oh it will, if possible. Just like it did in 2007.
They owe us one

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
So these guys weren't hyped as franchise defensemen?
Just because they didn't turn out to be hall of fame guys, you could still argue they were franchise defenseman to a certain degree (EJ, Jovo, Phillips- low end). Regardless, their careers have no bearing on Jones'. Jones is one of the most rare athletes you will ever see lace them up- 6'4+, great skater, very good offensive skills. I believe his IQ is much higher than when those guys were selected and his offenisve skills are better than every guy sans maybe Berard.

You also shouldn't use where those guys were selected as a barometer of how their careers should have turned out as 94, 95, 96 were some of the weakest drafts in history. 2006 when EJ was selected was a petty good top 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I'd draft Barkov, then try to move him or another center for a top defenseman. Barkov is the obvious choice at 4, so I make that pick and see what I can do.
Skill wise, Nichuskin should be in the conversation at #4.

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03-10-2013, 05:59 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Skill wise, Nichuskin should be in the conversation at #4.
Eh, we can debate that as we get closer to the draft as I like both guys a lot. Barkov really impressed me against like competition at the WJC.

Regardless, my larger point was to take the BPA available then than trade down and try to get fair value. Trading down for need is silly unless you get something absurd back, which I doubt when you're talking about a very specific move from 4 to 7-10. How many teams are really going to want to pay considerable assets to move up those 4-6 slots in such a deep draft? My guess is very few.

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03-10-2013, 06:07 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I believe both briere and Coburn can return is 1st rounders if we decide to sell at the deadline.

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03-10-2013, 06:25 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Primary Assist View Post
Easily really.... You don't think so? Be surprised what playoff teams would give up for a top 4 defender and one of the best playoff performers in the last decade.

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03-10-2013, 06:27 PM
  #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I understand that, but mantha is not a guy who's going to drop out of the 1st. He has 48 goals in 63 games and has all the tools. I see him going no later than 20.

I really don't know how he's not being talked about more tbh.
Fair enough. Again, I am not saying he is going to drop, but these things happen. I mean just look at last draft...Olli Maata was supposed to be picked in the top half, went in the bottom half. Matt Finn was supposed to be mid first, went 35th. Sebastian Collberg was supposed to be another mid first round guy, went in the second. Nicholas Kerdiles is another. All of these guys were thought to be going higher than they did. It happens on a regular basis. Guys who are lower ranked sneak up, and some guys fall. Nothing is guaranteed. I'm just saying my ideal draft is Jones (or Nurse if unavailable) with our first pick, Mantha (or De La Rose if unavailable) with our second. We'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Just because they didn't turn out to be hall of fame guys, you could still argue they were franchise defenseman to a certain degree (EJ, Jovo, Phillips- low end). Regardless, their careers have no bearing on Jones'. Jones is one of the most rare athletes you will ever see lace them up- 6'4+, great skater, very good offensive skills. I believe his IQ is much higher than when those guys were selected and his offenisve skills are better than every guy sans maybe Berard.
Absolutely, but none of those guys, with the exception of maybe Jovo, would be worth one of, if not the most valuable young forward in your organization plus a first round pick. I'm not in any way knocking Jones. I'm just saying he hasn't played yet. I wouldn't trade a known valuable commodity + a first rounder for someone who has not played a minute of professional hockey. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I would trade other things to get that pick like a first and next years first + whatever.

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03-10-2013, 07:29 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Absolutely, but none of those guys, with the exception of maybe Jovo, would be worth one of, if not the most valuable young forward in your organization plus a first round pick. I'm not in any way knocking Jones. I'm just saying he hasn't played yet. I wouldn't trade a known valuable commodity + a first rounder for someone who has not played a minute of professional hockey. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I would trade other things to get that pick like a first and next years first + whatever.
My argument really was against you comparing him to other defenseman taken first overall and how they didn't become HoF Dmen. I don't think that's very fair. Look at some guys taken 2nd overall: Hedman, Doughty, Pronger, etc. Each draft is different.

That said, it would depend on where my original pick was if I was considering packaging Couturier to get to #1. If we have say pick #8 yes I would do it. Few reasons:
1) I, personally, think Seth Jones is that good. A true #1 defenseman for a decade plus. He's everything this franchise has lacked in a defenseman (sans 2 years of Pronger). You can say "what if', but I'm highly confident in his ability and apptitude to reach that level.
2) The difference in talent between #8 and #5 is huge in this draft, let alone #8 and #1. I'm not even sure if Couts is enough to get you #1.
3) You say you wouldn't trade a known for an unknown, but I would argue Couts is just as much of an unknown as Jones. Yes he plays very good defensively and yes that is definitely valuable, but what if he never becomes more than a 35-40 point player? Most of Couts' trade value is tied to the fact that he has the potential to be a 60+ point player with shutdown capabilities.

I would hate to lose Couts, but if it meant getting a shot to draft Seth Jones, I wouldn't think twice about it.

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03-10-2013, 08:28 PM
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
My argument really was against you comparing him to other defenseman taken first overall and how they didn't become HoF Dmen. I don't think that's very fair. Look at some guys taken 2nd overall: Hedman, Doughty, Pronger, etc. Each draft is different.
I think you are misconstruing my argument. What I said was that I assume the hype surrounding those guys was the same as Seth Jones' hype at this moment. The same stuff you are saying about Seth Jones was likely said about the guys I mentioned. They were all good players, but none of them lived up to their hype.

Quote:
That said, it would depend on where my original pick was if I was considering packaging Couturier to get to #1. If we have say pick #8 yes I would do it. Few reasons:
1) I, personally, think Seth Jones is that good. A true #1 defenseman for a decade plus. He's everything this franchise has lacked in a defenseman (sans 2 years of Pronger). You can say "what if', but I'm highly confident in his ability and apptitude to reach that level.
And that's fine, but again, it's all speculation. He has the tools, but at this point he is all potential. What you are saying may very well turn out to be true. But is just as likely that he turns into only a guy like the guys I mentioned. You may be willing to risk Couturier for that, I am not. You may wind up right in the end, but I am not willing to risk it.

Quote:
2) The difference in talent between #8 and #5 is huge in this draft, let alone #8 and #1. I'm not even sure if Couts is enough to get you #1.
If Couturier and a first doesn't move you up to where you want to be, that is all the more reason to not make the deal.

Quote:
3) You say you wouldn't trade a known for an unknown, but I would argue Couts is just as much of an unknown as Jones. Yes he plays very good defensively and yes that is definitely valuable, but what if he never becomes more than a 35-40 point player? Most of Couts' trade value is tied to the fact that he has the potential to be a 60+ point player with shutdown capabilities.
The difference is that Couturier is in his second NHL season. While he is struggling this year, he has already shown that he can shut down one of the best, if not the best player in the world on the biggest stage (see: Evgeni Malkin). If he stays a 35-40 point center but also stays a top defensive forward on the team, I would be fine. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

I think you are underestimating just how difficult it is to be a true #1 defender. There are like what, five guys that are true #1 defenders out there (i.e. guys you would build your team around)? It is so much more likely that Jones turns out to be a good not great defenseman than it is that he turns into Zdeno Chara. It is 100% absolutely possible. He has the talent and his ceiling is very high. But that is best case scenario.

Quote:
I would hate to lose Couts, but if it meant getting a shot to draft Seth Jones, I wouldn't think twice about it.
Well that's just a difference of opinion. I would not make that move. I like Jones. I want the Flyers to draft him. I would like the Flyers to trade up to get him. But any deal to move up would not involve Couturier if it were me (unless it was part of a larger deal with more moving parts).

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03-10-2013, 08:42 PM
  #521
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Agree with DFF

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03-10-2013, 09:11 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Easily really.... You don't think so? Be surprised what playoff teams would give up for a top 4 defender and one of the best playoff performers in the last decade.
He's a troll that needs to be banned. Ignore.

Both of those players would return first rounders unless Briere restricted his teams too heavily.

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03-11-2013, 12:14 PM
  #523
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Is Zadarov wearing a Phillies cap in this pic?

http://instagram.com/p/WuaJgtD4n_/

He must want to get drafted by Philly

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03-11-2013, 01:39 PM
  #524
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https://twitter.com/D_LEED/status/311184269001256960

Quote:
Seth Jones is obviously top dog among D for me. But I view Rasmus Ristolainen, Ryan Pulock, Josh Morrissey and Darnell Nurse about equal.
Somewhere on here some people were complaining about DLEED. This is a reason I get a little frustrated with him. Statements like this.

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03-11-2013, 01:47 PM
  #525
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Anyone get to watch Jordan Subban? If he wasn't so mini, he would be up there in the rankings. Likely a 2nd rounder according to some lists.

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