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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:02 PM
  #26
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The Flyers and Canucks both need a shakeup. Maybe they can fire/hire each other's coaches.

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03-10-2013, 04:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Do you guys think that AV is a good at developing young players?

I think he's massively over-rated in that regard, with alot of props that should be going to our farm team coaches, and our skills coaches.

Alain Vigneault has done nothing over his time here but shatter a young kids confidence and give him very little help in succeeding.
Which coach did the following core players on this team develop under and establish themselves as the players they are today?

Daniel/Henrik Sedin
Kesler
Edler
Burrows
Bieksa
Schneider
Raymond
Hansen

What's funny is that in every one of their situations, fans complained just like they are today with our current young players, that AV doesn't know how to develop them and are ruining them overall. Remember the countless threads about the Sedins not getting enough icetime, Kesler being used as a 3rd/4th liner, his apparent hatred for Hansen, Raymond being used as a 4th liner, etc..

With all the hate AV gets here, it's easy to forget that this is still a team that has had more success under him than any other coach we've ever had, while we've had many players develop into the core of one of the top teams in the league under him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - AV is definitely not without his warts and there are areas in his coaching which are frustrating to say the least - like EVERY coach in the league, he's not perfect and makes mistakes. But people all too often ignore the facts with him. His actual record and the players that have developed under him. There is no question that he's brought this team more success and more stability overall than any coach we've ever had in history - and I've seen most of them in my time as a fan of this team.

Having said that, I won't argue that AV's time with this team may be up... like every coach, on any team, they all seem to have limited shelf-lives and eventually every team needs a change no matter how good their coach may be. AV's time may be up. But I still find it ridiculous how much hatred and disrespect he gets on these boards. We've been lucky to have such a good coach run this team for so long. I've gone through years of terrible coaching here to see that pretty clearly, and I wouldn't at all be surprised that whoever replaces him as coach won't be nearly as good or successful overall, and after his initial shine wears off, like it always does with any fan base, there'll be a lot of fire "insert new coach's name" threads popping up here again.

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Do you guys think that AV is a good at developing young players?

I think he's massively over-rated in that regard, with alot of props that should be going to our farm team coaches, and our skills coaches.

Alain Vigneault has done nothing over his time here but shatter a young kids confidence and give him very little help in succeeding.
Who is he over rated by?

Yes as they say it takes a whole village to raise a child.

AV has done more then just shatter kids confidence, he seems to have done that with some kids, and also grown men, but at the same time, he has helped take guys like Burrows' and Keslers game to a level higher then predicted.

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03-10-2013, 05:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Which coach did the following core players on this team develop under and establish themselves as the players they are today?

Daniel/Henrik Sedin
Kesler
Edler
Burrows
Bieksa
Schneider
Raymond
Hansen

What's funny is that in every one of their situations, fans complained just like they are today with our current young players, that AV doesn't know how to develop them and are ruining them overall. Remember the countless threads about the Sedins not getting enough icetime, Kesler being used as a 3rd/4th liner, his apparent hatred for Hansen, Raymond being used as a 4th liner, etc..

With all the hate AV gets here, it's easy to forget that this is still a team that has had more success under him than any other coach we've ever had, while we've had many players develop into the core of one of the top teams in the league under him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - AV is definitely not without his warts and there are areas in his coaching which are frustrating to say the least - like EVERY coach in the league, he's not perfect and makes mistakes. But people all too often ignore the facts with him. His actual record and the players that have developed under him. There is no question that he's brought this team more success and more stability overall than any coach we've ever had in history - and I've seen most of them in my time as a fan of this team.

Having said that, I won't argue that AV's time with this team may be up... like every coach, on any team, they all seem to have limited shelf-lives and eventually every team needs a change no matter how good their coach may be. AV's time may be up. But I still find it ridiculous how much hatred and disrespect he gets on these boards. We've been lucky to have such a good coach run this team for so long. I've gone through years of terrible coaching here to see that pretty clearly, and I wouldn't at all be surprised that whoever replaces him as coach won't be nearly as good or successful overall, and after his initial shine wears off, like it always does with any fan base, there'll be a lot of fire "insert new coach's name" threads popping up here again.
Oh come on. I'm not trying to say what you're saying is wrong, the bottom two paragraph's I pretty much agree with fully.

But the Sedins were the first and second overall pick. You really think they would have developed any differently under another coach? I think they were more influenced by Linden/Ohlund/Sundin than AV. AV lambasted them publicly for years.

Kesler? Another first rounder expected to be good. Another player who had clashes with AV through his youth, and still seems to. Are you seriously giving Vigneault 100% credit for the player Kesler became? He did that himself, through (self-admitted) hard work on his overall skills during the off-season. Vigneault was pigeon-holing him as a third liner.

Schneider? Seriously?

Raymond, Hansen, Bieksa I'll give you, and Burrows is his one real awesome success story, although the only thing he did really was stick him with the Sedins and let that flourish.

I don't see this fantastic track record of player development to be honest. Not even a little bit.

He was a great coach with the grinders, the vets, and Aaron Rome, and has pretty much always been awful with our young players.

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Old
03-10-2013, 05:49 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Kesler? Another first rounder expected to be good. Another player who had clashes with AV through his youth, and still seems to. Are you seriously giving Vigneault 100% credit for the player Kesler became? He did that himself, through (self-admitted) hard work on his overall skills during the off-season. Vigneault was pigeon-holing him as a third liner.
A player doesn't have to like his coach. Heck, many of the Habs absolutely loathed Scotty Bowman - one of the best coaches of all time (this was during the time of perhaps one of the best teams of all-time).

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03-10-2013, 05:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
Oh come on. I'm not trying to say what you're saying is wrong, the bottom two paragraph's I pretty much agree with fully.

But the Sedins were the first and second overall pick. You really think they would have developed any differently under another coach? I think they were more influenced by Linden/Ohlund/Sundin than AV. AV lambasted them publicly for years.

Kesler? Another first rounder expected to be good. Another player who had clashes with AV through his youth, and still seems to. Are you seriously giving Vigneault 100% credit for the player Kesler became? He did that himself, through (self-admitted) hard work on his overall skills during the off-season. Vigneault was pigeon-holing him as a third liner.

Schneider? Seriously?

Raymond, Hansen, Bieksa I'll give you, and Burrows is his one real awesome success story, although the only thing he did really was stick him with the Sedins and let that flourish.

I don't see this fantastic track record of player development to be honest. Not even a little bit.

He was a great coach with the grinders, the vets, and Aaron Rome, and has pretty much always been awful with our young players.
are you seriously giving AV 0% credit for the development of these players?

So you're saying that a coach has no impact on the development of players then. Then why would we blame him for other young players not working out? If he has zero impact on the Sedins or Kesler improving to the players they are today, then why would he have any negative impact in the developments of Kassian or other players?

Shouldn't the guy who actually plays these players, and sets their roles within the organization have some impact on their development?

What you're saying here is a clear double-standard. Let's blame AV for ruining any prospects that don't work out, but for all those players that did work out, they would have become those same players without AV. Don't you seen the flaw in this logic?

the reality is that the Sedins developed into Hart/Art Ross players under AV. Kesler developed into a Selke player under AV. And the others had their success under this same coach. Either you give him some credit for their development, or you give him zero blame for the development (or lack of) for any of other prospects. Otherwise you're just putting blame on him for anyone that doesn't turn out well, while giving him no credit for anyone that does.

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:03 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
are you seriously giving AV 0% credit for the development of these players?

So you're saying that a coach has no impact on the development of players then. Then why would we blame him for other young players not working out? If he has zero impact on the Sedins or Kesler improving to the players they are today, then why would he have any negative impact in the developments of Kassian or other players?

Shouldn't the guy who actually plays these players, and sets their roles within the organization have some impact on their development?

What you're saying here is a clear double-standard. Let's blame AV for ruining any prospects that don't work out, but for all those players that did work out, they would have become those same players without AV. Don't you seen the flaw in this logic?

the reality is that the Sedins developed into Hart/Art Ross players under AV. Kesler developed into a Selke player under AV. And the others had their success under this same coach. Either you give him some credit for their development, or you give him zero blame for the development (or lack of) for any of other prospects. Otherwise you're just putting blame on him for anyone that doesn't turn out well, while giving him no credit for anyone that does.
I don't have a double standard at all, I said that about 3 players, all of which who were first round picks and expected to be fantastic talents.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, but I think AndyPipkin said it best. The guy is so stubborn, he refuses to change the way he works with players depending on the type of personality they are, and that simply doesn't fly when you're an NHL coach.

His time here has run up. Personally I'm hoping Holmgren has another "woopsie" moment and fires Laviolette so we can quickly snatch him up.

Also, isn't anybody just sick of his face? His gum chewing? That stupid little smirk when he feels anybody has wronged him? Yeah. enough is enough.

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03-10-2013, 06:08 PM
  #33
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I don't have a double standard at all, I said that about 3 players, all of which who were first round picks and expected to be fantastic talents.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree here, but I think AndyPipkin said it best. The guy is so stubborn, he refuses to change the way he works with players depending on the type of personality they are, and that simply doesn't fly when you're an NHL coach.

His time here has run up. Personally I'm hoping Holmgren has another "woopsie" moment and fires Laviolette so we can quickly snatch him up.

Also, isn't anybody just sick of his face? His gum chewing? That stupid little smirk when he feels anybody has wronged him? Yeah. enough is enough.
why the hell would anybody admit to agreeing with you about anything? you're militant about this to the point that it's embarrassing

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:14 PM
  #34
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why the hell would anybody admit to agreeing with you about anything? you're militant about this to the point that it's embarrassing
That last part was tongue in cheek.

But hey, speaking of militant posts!

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:24 PM
  #35
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Ballard use to do that with Florida.
Same with Bouwmeester. Part of his resurgence this season is that he finally has a coach that will let him play to his strengths.

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:26 PM
  #36
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Feel the same way I did to start the year: good big picture coach that fails to make necessary adjustments mid-season/for the playoffs and struggles to adjust his line-up. I'd put him one tier below the top coaches, which is fine enough, as the difference probably doesn't account for much.

But he's reached his best before date. I think there's something to having a "new voice" in the room, even if you can't qualify it statistically. Plus this is a team that melts down every single year: having someone else in charge might help and would certainly be easier than dismantling the team.

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Old
03-10-2013, 07:13 PM
  #37
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Feel the same way I did to start the year: good big picture coach that fails to make necessary adjustments mid-season/for the playoffs and struggles to adjust his line-up. I'd put him one tier below the top coaches, which is fine enough, as the difference probably doesn't account for much.

But he's reached his best before date. I think there's something to having a "new voice" in the room, even if you can't qualify it statistically. Plus this is a team that melts down every single year: having someone else in charge might help and would certainly be easier than dismantling the team.
Can't disagree with that. As I mentioned before, all coaches expire when they're with any one team for too long. We see it all over the NHL and have had very, very few exceptions to that throughout history.

AV's time may well be up. I still find it ridiculous how fans here have to run the guy to the ground and disparage everything he's done. AV has been this organization's best ever coach. People need to appreciate that and give credit where it's due. Maybe we have too many young fans here who haven't followed this organization for long and can't understand how bad things can really be, and how long they can stay that way.

If AV is gone, I won't be upset. He's still had a great run here and deserves to go out with accolades for a job well done. It's annoying though that people just refuse to accept the good things he's accomplished here. He deserves better.

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03-10-2013, 07:23 PM
  #38
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AV had the team ready to go today!

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Old
03-10-2013, 07:23 PM
  #39
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AV's time may well be up.
I would rather gut the core and rebuild with AV then keep the current core and go into coach-swapping mode.

 
Old
03-10-2013, 07:25 PM
  #40
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I would rather gut the core and rebuild with AV then keep the current core and go into coach-swapping mode.
Why oh why would you keep a coach around for that long? We all know AV won that jack adams because Luongo carried the team.

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03-10-2013, 07:27 PM
  #41
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Why oh why would you keep a coach around for that long?
The bigger question is: why oh why would you keep the same group of players around for that long?

If the players start tuning out a very good coach, you swap out the players, not the coach.

 
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03-10-2013, 07:30 PM
  #42
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The bigger question is: why oh why would you keep the same group of players around for that long?

If the players start tuning out a very good coach, you swap out the players, not the coach.
All coaches have a shelf life. Why would you ship out a bunch of players that have taking lots of discounts to play for this team? It's much easier to get rid of a coach and not completely screw up the rest of the team. Change the coach and see if the team responds. If they don't respond, time to start making trades. It's a much more logical way to go. This team still has talent. They need to get their heads on straight and AV is not helping one bit. 2 Art Ross Trophy winners and a Selke winner. You keep those types of guys unless Kesler is going to continously be injured for the rest of his career/keeps diving.

Players like ballard, raymond, booth, and a goalie I'd part with though.

There is a statistic brought up a few years ago and I can't remember the amount of years, but after a certain amount of years that a coach has not won a stanley cup with a particular team, they don't magically win it. AV is already by that amount of years ( i can't remember the exact amount).

Some times players just need a new voice and perspective to get more out of them. I firmly believe a different coach could get way more consistent play out of edler and bieksa, yet AV just lets them do whatever the hell they want.

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03-10-2013, 07:30 PM
  #43
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Do you guys think that AV is a good at developing young players?
He turned a young pair of under-performing sisters into Art Ross winners, an emo American kid into a Selke winner, some punk from the ECHL into 40 goal scorer, a college kid into "the best backup in the NHL"...

Yes, of course he is good at developing young players. Very, very good, in fact.

 
Old
03-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #44
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The bigger question is: why oh why would you keep the same group of players around for that long?

If the players start tuning out a very good coach, you swap out the players, not the coach.
Its significantly easier to change coaching then a core of players. If you went the route of changing cores, your looking at about at least 3 years deconstructing.

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03-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #45
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I would rather gut the core and rebuild with AV then keep the current core and go into coach-swapping mode.
I guess that's unfortunate for your liking since all of our top guys have NTCs.

And do you seriously value AV more than the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Edler, etc?

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03-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #46
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All coaches have a shelf life.
Disagree.

Combination of players + coach has a shelf life. Turn over the (right) players, and good coaches can be successful in the same place for a very very long time.

 
Old
03-10-2013, 07:38 PM
  #47
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Disagree.

Combination of players + coach has a shelf life. Turn over the (right) players, and good coaches can be successful in the same place for a very very long time.
What is with the AV obsession? He's not scotty bowman. My goodness.
Just keep defending AV. He gets destroyed in the playoffs because he barely ever makes in-game adjustments. Yeah, wonderful coach. I'd rather give someone else a shot and see what they can do.

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03-10-2013, 07:42 PM
  #48
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Fire Newell brown

Ever since teams figured out the drop pass and the skate in and drop to boards play that used to work all the time the guy hasn't done anything to change the pp at all. It's been well over a year since teams figured em out. Every single time the canucks have a pp they do one or the other and it's soo predictable. Get your head out of ur ass and change the play design on how to enter the offensive zone or find a new coach who can come up with more than 2 freaking plays

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03-10-2013, 07:43 PM
  #49
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He gets destroyed in the playoffs...
Within one game of a cup is getting "destroyed" in the playoffs?

Come on...

 
Old
03-10-2013, 07:43 PM
  #50
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fire everyone!

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