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OT - Landis fails Drug Test at Tour De France

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Old
07-27-2006, 10:15 AM
  #26
xander
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Lots of Accusations were made about Armstrong. Plenty of Investigations were launched. NONE showed any proof he cheated.

IMO He is as clean as they come, until proven otherwise.
and yet he managed to destroy Ulrich, Basso, Mancebo, ect. all of who we now know where doping...

No one has that much natural talent. The guy was doping, there's just no other way to explain his performance.

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07-27-2006, 10:16 AM
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and yet he managed to destroy Ulrich, Basso, Mancebo, ect. all of who we now know where doping...

No one has that much natural talent. The guy was doping, there's just no other way to explain his performance.
Yeah there is, he's better than they are. End of story until you can prove otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty. But maybe thats the law student in me talking.

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07-27-2006, 10:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Its impossible to be better than someone who is cheating without cheating yourself?? That's news to me.
when your talking about a fitness based sport where EVERYBODY else is doing it, yes. Expecially when you consider that armstrong didn't just beat these guys, he decimated them for 7 years.

I'm sorry, at some point you just have to call shinanigans.

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07-27-2006, 10:20 AM
  #29
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I said Potatoes to point out Salad the last 7 years.

Thought you're right, a lot of them cheat, but Avocadoes are definitely pioneers in cheating in all the sports.

Fixed !

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07-27-2006, 10:20 AM
  #30
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Yeah there is, he's better than they are. End of story until you can prove otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty. But maybe thats the law student in me talking.
he's innocent in a court of law, but I think you really have to shutting your eyes and humming loudly not to think that this guy was doping.

And your talking to someone who was a big armstrong fan for years, it pains me to say that he was doping, but I don't think there's anyway to get around it.

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07-27-2006, 10:20 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Yeah there is, he's better than they are. End of story until you can prove otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty. But maybe thats the law student in me talking.
yhea OJ Simpson never killed his wife, some portorican guy did it

it's not because you cannot see a tree fall in the middle of the forest when there's nowhere around that it did no

The Armstrong case is a bit like that

it's like coming across a tree laying on the ground, you cant "PROVE" it fell, but you know it's down, thus the tree fell, but the fact that the tree is on the ground is not evidence that he fell.

something like that...

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07-27-2006, 10:21 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
and yet he managed to destroy Ulrich, Basso, Mancebo, ect. all of who we now know where doping...

No one has that much natural talent. The guy was doping, there's just no other way to explain his performance.
Nice non sequitor

Armstrong beating someone who has been accused of doping (has anyone proven that Ulrich & Basso are guilty yet?) does not mean that he is guilty of doping.

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07-27-2006, 10:23 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
yhea OJ Simpson never killed his wife, some portorican guy did it

it's not because you cannot see a tree fall in the middle of the forest when there's nowhere around that it did no

The Armstrong case is a bit like that

it's like coming across a tree laying on the ground, you cant "PROVE" it fell, but you know it's down, thus the tree fell, but the fact that the tree is on the ground is not evidence that he fell.

something like that...
Its not like the OJ case at all, sure we all know OJ did it, there was overwhelming evidence. But the evidence against Armstrong is all circumstancial and very weak. His opponents are doing it so he must be too cause he beat them. Sorry, not a good enough argument for me.

Sorry, he was tested many times just like they were, infact with his winning and all the accusations against him he was tested more than them. Yet he never failed once. LUCK?? Hardly, noone gets lucky 10,000 times in a row.

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07-27-2006, 10:26 AM
  #34
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WAIT

Landis's Testosterone was a bit high ?

thats it ?

Maybe some chick was flashing him ! French chicks have great **** !

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07-27-2006, 10:30 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
yhea OJ Simpson never killed his wife, some portorican guy did it

it's not because you cannot see a tree fall in the middle of the forest when there's nowhere around that it did no

The Armstrong case is a bit like that

it's like coming across a tree laying on the ground, you cant "PROVE" it fell, but you know it's down, thus the tree fell, but the fact that the tree is on the ground is not evidence that he fell.

something like that...
Man ... camman , obviously you had inside information on this right ? jeez I hate it when peope just rant and rant about stuff of which they are clueless about, I had 3 years of law in Mcgill and if you knew the intricacies of the OJ simpson trial which included :

- A Detective that was part of the KKK
- Evidence proven to be planted
- And not a TRACE not one of Oj's DNA although other unidentified DNA were on the spot

you wouldn't be talking about this trial.

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07-27-2006, 10:32 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Its not like the OJ case at all, sure we all know OJ did it, there was overwhelming evidence. But the evidence against Armstrong is all circumstancial and very weak. His opponents are doing it so he must be too cause he beat them. Sorry, not a good enough argument for me.

Sorry, he was tested many times just like they were, infact with his winning and all the accusations against him he was tested more than them. Yet he never failed once. LUCK?? Hardly, noone gets lucky 10,000 times in a row.
ok well you can resume your life on lollipop street where chocolate grows on trees and where the road are made of vanilla ice cream

no but seriously

lets agree to the fact that even if it was never proven, there's still a chance he was taking it, and the fact that he destroyer his doped opponents 7 years in a row does nothing to diminish that possibility.

Now back to Landis

what happen when you test positive, suspensions, fines?

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07-27-2006, 10:32 AM
  #37
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Nice non sequitor

Armstrong beating someone who has been accused of doping (has anyone proven that Ulrich & Basso are guilty yet?) does not mean that he is guilty of doping.
have they been proven yet? no, but it's coming. it's not as if anyone has come out to exonerate them yet. And, I know this is so cynical, but when was the last time a cyclist got mentioned in a doping case and was proven innocent? I don't think it's ever happened.


At this point your never going to prove that armstrong was doping. But we're talking about a sport that is purely based on fitness. having a wicked wrister doesn't help you in the mountains, it all comes down to how fit you are. Thus when just about everybody around you is augmenting they're physical fitness with drugs, and you are destroying these guys, think it's hard not to assume that your doping too.

I'd also like to point out that Arstrong never showed extraordinary physical gifts before he came back from the cancer, which is what he would have to have in order to cleanly beat an entire peleton of the worlds most talented cyclist that are ilegally augmenting they're performance.

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07-27-2006, 10:32 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I hate this!!! It sucks for the guy who gets the title now. Oscar Pereiro won the thing fair and square as Landis cheated, and he will now be recognized as the winner. However this win is Anti-climatic. He does not get the celebration and absolute elation that comes with realizing you are the winner of a major sporting event.

I doubt being handed the title a week later can replicate the same joy inside that Pereiro would have had after the 20th stage and his moment was robbed of him by this dirty cheater.
Word.

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07-27-2006, 10:35 AM
  #39
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Sorry, he was tested many times just like they were, infact with his winning and all the accusations against him he was tested more than them. Yet he never failed once. LUCK?? Hardly, noone gets lucky 10,000 times in a row.
If these guys couldn't beat drug tests then doping wouldn't be a problem. The fact is that most drug tests can be beaten, and are routinly. Most guys aren't even caught by the test, it's because they get connected to a doctor (which is what's happened to basso and ulrich and that whole list of guys.)

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07-27-2006, 10:36 AM
  #40
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Man ... camman , obviously you had inside information on this right ? jeez I hate it when peope just rant and rant about stuff of which they are clueless about, I had 3 years of law in Mcgill and if you knew the intricacies of the OJ simpson trial which included :

- A Detective that was part of the KKK
- Evidence proven to be planted
- And not a TRACE not one of Oj's DNA although other unidentified DNA were on the spot

you wouldn't be talking about this trial.
great... so he did not do it right?

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07-27-2006, 10:36 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
Now back to Landis

what happen when you test positive, suspensions, fines?
2 years is pretty standard.

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07-27-2006, 10:36 AM
  #42
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You guys are trying almost as hard as the French press (from France) to prove Armstrong is dirty. Yet with little evidence against that.

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07-27-2006, 10:40 AM
  #43
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You guys are trying almost as hard as the French press (from France) to prove Armstrong is dirty. Yet with little evidence against that.
there actually is a fair amount of evidence, though I am not that informed on it. There are several guys on the other sports board (general) who are very informed on it, I would suggest asking them.

Personally, I don't think you even need the evidence. The sport has gotten so bad that I think it's hard to conclude that the majority of cyclist are not doped. You can think otherwise if you wish, but I think your living in a dream world.

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07-27-2006, 10:41 AM
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This is unfortunate... but we all knew his story was too good to be true.

I found it weird how a guy who had trouble walking and is having hip replacement surgery very soon could win arguably the most demanding athletic competiton in the world.

What happens now... is it likely he'll get stripped of his tour title?

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07-27-2006, 10:44 AM
  #45
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You guys are trying almost as hard as the French press (from France) to prove Armstrong is dirty. Yet with little evidence against that.
my cousin is a cyclist of a somewhat high caliber, and he says he's 99% certain that Armstrong is doped. Same for a big part of my family who all did cyclist competition.

Take it for what it's worth (probably nothing to you, but I just wanted to put in the opinion of someone who actually knows something about cyclism from the athlete perspective).

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07-27-2006, 10:49 AM
  #46
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have they been proven yet? no, but it's coming. it's not as if anyone has come out to exonerate them yet. And, I know this is so cynical, but when was the last time a cyclist got mentioned in a doping case and was proven innocent? I don't think it's ever happened.
At present Ulrich and Basso et al are guilty by association, the optics might be bad, but they have not been found guilty anything (aside from poor judgment).

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Originally Posted by xander View Post
At this point your never going to prove that armstrong was doping. But we're talking about a sport that is purely based on fitness. having a wicked wrister doesn't help you in the mountains, it all comes down to how fit you are. Thus when just about everybody around you is augmenting they're physical fitness with drugs, and you are destroying these guys, think it's hard not to assume that your doping too.
You can flesh this point out all you like, it's still a non sequitor. Your assumptions are not facts, and it does not follow that beating alleged cheaters makes it certain that you are a cheater.

Increased fitness can be achieved by training etc... Besides the Tour is as much a team competition as it is an individual accomplishment and US Postal/Discovery were well financed teams that had excellent cyclists to drive and protect Armstrong during his tour wins.

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I'd also like to point out that Arstrong never showed extraordinary physical gifts before he came back from the cancer, which is what he would have to have in order to cleanly beat an entire peleton of the worlds most talented cyclist that are ilegally augmenting they're performance.
First your assuming en mass that the peleton is doping, and then your assuming that there is no other explaination for Armstrong's victory than cheating. What beating cancer has to do with anything I don't know, perhaps that gave Armstrong more focus and desire than other cyclists.

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07-27-2006, 10:53 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
my cousin is a cyclist of a somewhat high caliber, and he says he's 99% certain that Armstrong is doped. Same for a big part of my family who all did cyclist competition.

Take it for what it's worth (probably nothing to you, but I just wanted to put in the opinion of someone who actually knows something about cyclism from the athlete perspective).
I'll assume that your cousin has not competed in the Tour de France? So while he and your cycling family might know what is to required cycle competitively, they don't know that anyone is guilty of doping on the Tour.

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07-27-2006, 10:53 AM
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great... so he did not do it right?

It is for you to supply the proof !

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07-27-2006, 10:55 AM
  #49
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How about more stupid outrageous statements ... someones needs to close this thread ...

This reminds me of reading on an dumb RDS board that Koivu's cancer was caused by him taking performance enhancing drugs so he could be bette than Ribeiro ...

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07-27-2006, 11:02 AM
  #50
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The odds are that Pereiro is probably cheating too. At this point it would be silly to assume that atleast 80% of the peleton is doping (probably higher) and just about all the main competitors.

It's gotten so bad that success itself is about as bad as failing a drug test. Even if the evidence on Amrstrong is shaky, we know he was doping because he dominated guys that we now know where doping (Ulrich, Basso, Mancebo, ect.)

I assumed that Landis (and all the top contenders) where doping befoe the tour started, and once we saw him at the top of the leader board I knew it was the case.

It's a shame because I really enjoy following cycling, but it's hard to maintain interest in a sport in which you know just about everyone is cheeting.
I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions (or the logic you use to arrive at them), but I recognize (and can understand) the suspiciousness that fans will have with sports that have had their 'doping' issues ... see cycling, track, baseball, cross-country skiing ... unfortunately, such suspicion -- no matter how well founded -- can and will unfairly taint the truly innocent athlete. I do not agree that because an athlete dominates a sport that he/she is necessarily cheating, however, in this sporting era where cheaters have clearly been exposed, it is near impossible for athletes from any sport today to escape the eye of suspicion (see Dick Pound when it comes to our beloved sport, hockey). Adding to this dilemma, the methods for cheating are sometimes one step ahead of the efforts to catch them, so even the seemingly innocent are not really innocent -- it's that they just did not get caught ... this time ... I think that is what many suspect of Lance Armstrong. However, suspicion alone is not a verdict of guilty and that is something -- although we need to maintain -- will be hard for sports fans to keep in perspective.

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