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07-27-2006, 07:23 AM
  #51
GreatWhiteLark
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Is everyone forgetting that the year before Gomez's breakout season, he had a whopping 13 goals in the East Coast Hockey League? He also played over 60 some odd games that year. This kid is not a natural goal scorer, and the comments about his 33 goals being an abberation are dead on.

Expecting 33 goals / 80-90 points out of Gomez would be a mistake. 15 goals, 60-70 points would be his expected norm, and we can get that out of Riberio for cheaper and certainly out of Higgins within a year or two...again for cheaper. Would be a waste of huge waste of money. If we're going to take on a 5 million dollar salary, a top 2 defenseman is the biggest need, not a playmaking centre as we already have two good ones.

I look at Gomez a lot like Bobby Carpenter in 84/85 when he scored over 50 goals / 90 points. He was near out of the league the next year and struggled to try to reach something he shouldn't have attained in the first place. He did rebound and stuck to his strenghts (great defensive hockey) and managed to carve out a good career thereafter.

I think Gainey's too smart to pay that much for something we already have a lot of. As a matter of fact, I think Lou's too smart as well.

We'll see.....

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07-27-2006, 07:55 AM
  #52
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The Devils are at 49Mill in salary according to the TSN list (Of course that's an approximation with the contract structure/span) and that's for all of 19 players (2 of them being the Mogilny and Malakhov contracts). ouch. If not Gomez, then some other players on that team are going to be up for grabs. Who else should we look at?

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07-27-2006, 08:14 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Glace Bay 'Bye View Post
Is everyone forgetting that the year before Gomez's breakout season, he had a whopping 13 goals in the East Coast Hockey League? He also played over 60 some odd games that year. This kid is not a natural goal scorer, and the comments about his 33 goals being an abberation are dead on.

Expecting 33 goals / 80-90 points out of Gomez would be a mistake. 15 goals, 60-70 points would be his expected norm, and we can get that out of Riberio for cheaper and certainly out of Higgins within a year or two...again for cheaper. Would be a waste of huge waste of money. If we're going to take on a 5 million dollar salary, a top 2 defenseman is the biggest need, not a playmaking centre as we already have two good ones.

I look at Gomez a lot like Bobby Carpenter in 84/85 when he scored over 50 goals / 90 points. He was near out of the league the next year and struggled to try to reach something he shouldn't have attained in the first place. He did rebound and stuck to his strenghts (great defensive hockey) and managed to carve out a good career thereafter.

I think Gainey's too smart to pay that much for something we already have a lot of. As a matter of fact, I think Lou's too smart as well.

We'll see.....

I agree and disagree with your post. First, yep, $5 mil is a lot for Gomez and I don't think Gainey will go for that. Second, Gomez is not a natural goal scorer (though I remember a beaut he scored on the Habs last season after splitting the D) but a hell of a playmaker. I wouldn't expect 30 goals out of him, but 20 goals 60 assists would be a valid expectation. He is still young and I expect him to get better. By no means do I expect his offense to disappear like Bobby Carpenter.

But, Gomez is heads and tails better than Ribs, and though I know you didn't directly compare the two in your post, only indirectly via expected point totals, Gomez would bring much more to the game. Gomez is a much better skater, is stronger on his skates, has great playmaking skills and vision and is a solid 2-way player. Yes, Ribs has great vision as well, but Ribs lack of footspeed and size hurts his ability to execute. Gomez also plays well in the playoffs and Ribs 2 playoff seasons thus far have been subpar.

So, would I want Gomez on the Habs? Yes. At $5 million/year? No. That said, I don't want Ribs on the Habs, especially at $1.9 million/year.

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07-27-2006, 08:21 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
At some point, I think the team has to alter their thinking and have a 'best player', someone who without question is among the best at their position. In my view,the team has a lot of very good players, with many more on the way. As a team, they probably lack one guy who stands alone, has a huge effect on other players or opposition gameplans. When that time comes, the whole cap and roster has to be structured to fit him in. I just don't think Gomez warrants radically changing the team, and I believe fitting him in would cause that.

Sure he's a better point producer than our current C's, but I don't see him as the 'guy'. I also believe that LL can sit back and demand Higgins or his equal in a deal. 28 other GM's will at least think about it.
"That guy" is extremely difficult to get. The stars may not align again in the manner they are now, in order to get a player like Gomez, who at least is comparable to "that guy".

This seems like a reasonably good opportunity, provided that the cap can be managed now, and more importantly our salary structure maintained when we need to resign the Markovs and Sourays next year.

That said, I just don't see LL dealing with the Habs for someone who may become the cornerstone of their offence. There are probably better partners out west for him.

Edit: I can't abscribe my reasoning to anything specific, except that he did roughly as well in Elias' absence, but I don't see his performance last year as an aberration.

Edit2: a Gomez should cost about 4-5 million. Perhaps not worth 6, but 5 is not unreasonable to me. Conversely, if we had groomed our own Gomez, we sure would be ticked if Gainey let him go at 5 mil to someone who gave him an offer sheet of that magnitude. Our thinking then would be: pay the guy! That tells me that 5 million may not be unreasonable, and that the arbitrator perhaps didn't pull this number completely out of his *ss.


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07-27-2006, 08:45 AM
  #55
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GME, I don't think 5 is out of line. I'm not sure that anyone is making a trade without signing him long term though. Does that bump it up from 5 over time in Gomez' demands ? If he's determined to play on a 1 year, well....

Maybe I don'tget something, but I see any deal as having 2 separate issues. Sending LL what he will accept,whether, Price,Chip,Kost, a combination. Then sending away $ like Aebi,Ribs, Bonk. Knowing Mtl. has to send away 1 or 2 of those to make cap, means that we've sent away 4-5 players in the end.

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07-27-2006, 09:50 AM
  #56
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GME, I don't think 5 is out of line. I'm not sure that anyone is making a trade without signing him long term though. Does that bump it up from 5 over time in Gomez' demands ? If he's determined to play on a 1 year, well....

Maybe I don'tget something, but I see any deal as having 2 separate issues. Sending LL what he will accept,whether, Price,Chip,Kost, a combination. Then sending away $ like Aebi,Ribs, Bonk. Knowing Mtl. has to send away 1 or 2 of those to make cap, means that we've sent away 4-5 players in the end.
A lot of teams are faced with those same issues, which leads me to believe that LL may not be getting as much as you say, especially since the 29 others have him over a barrel. If that's the case, the cost might be 3-4 players, with a comparable pick perhaps coming back for another team for the players we deal away, depending on the sequence of events. So the net cost might be 2-3 players.

Edit: I don't think that he will fetch as much as Pronger, for the simple reason that the Oilers could have waited a little before shipping him out, i.e.: sometime during the season, a luxury that LL does not have, and because Pronger is in an elite level "somewhat" beyond Gomez.

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07-27-2006, 09:55 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by GermanyMontrealExpat View Post
"That guy" is extremely difficult to get. The stars may not align again in the manner they are now, in order to get a player like Gomez, who at least is comparable to "that guy".

This seems like a reasonably good opportunity, provided that the cap can be managed now, and more importantly our salary structure maintained when we need to resign the Markovs and Sourays next year.

That said, I just don't see LL dealing with the Habs for someone who may become the cornerstone of their offence. There are probably better partners out west for him.

Edit: I can't abscribe my reasoning to anything specific, except that he did roughly as well in Elias' absence, but I don't see his performance last year as an aberration.

Edit2: a Gomez should cost about 4-5 million. Perhaps not worth 6, but 5 is not unreasonable to me. Conversely, if we had groomed our own Gomez, we sure would be ticked if Gainey let him go at 5 mil to someone who gave him an offer sheet of that magnitude. Our thinking then would be: pay the guy! That tells me that 5 million may not be unreasonable, and that the arbitrator perhaps didn't pull this number completely out of his *ss.
Exactly. People on these boards keep dreaming about a Mega mega superstar to come here. The chances of that are very slim. They don't want a guy like Gomez, yet they'll complain about the Habs not having a true #1 centerman. Good luck on winning the cup with Koivu, Ribeiro and Plekanec. See you in the next rant.

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07-27-2006, 12:06 PM
  #58
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The Habs have not had a big dominating centerman since Wickenenheiser (sorry for the spelling), and I am being generous here.

Is Gomez the cure?

Do we need another undersized centerman to join the ranks of Koivu, Ribs, Pleks, Begin?

What the Habs need to do is target what they need, and get it. Not take the best of what is lying around.

I say..... NEXT!

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07-27-2006, 03:43 PM
  #59
paddy
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
The Habs have not had a big dominating centerman since Wickenenheiser (sorry for the spelling), and I am being generous here.

Is Gomez the cure?

Do we need another undersized centerman to join the ranks of Koivu, Ribs, Pleks, Begin?

What the Habs need to do is target what they need, and get it. Not take the best of what is lying around.

I say..... NEXT!
You think there's maybe a reason why they still, after so many years, haven't gotten that big dominating centerman?

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07-27-2006, 03:48 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
The Habs have not had a big dominating centerman since Wickenenheiser (sorry for the spelling), and I am being generous here.

Is Gomez the cure?

Do we need another undersized centerman to join the ranks of Koivu, Ribs, Pleks, Begin?

What the Habs need to do is target what they need, and get it. Not take the best of what is lying around.

I say..... NEXT!
Just what exactly did Wickenheiser dominate? People often confound height and dominance. You can't reduce everything to just height. Skill and fire in the belly count for something, otherwise it would be easy to discount for someone who measures just 1m73, someone like... Joe Cole
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.ra...playerId=43188 .

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07-27-2006, 04:49 PM
  #61
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I tell you hab fans , we have to start thinking with our heads not our hearts. I think
we are way over rating Saku , God love him , but we put this player on a pedestal too often . He is no longer a #1 center. His body is beaten up , he is not even close to other legit # 1 centers. Its like the leafs here in Toronto with Wendel Clark, a great fan favourite , but overrated. IF WE ARE GOING TO TAKE SAKU OVER GOMEZ WE ALL NEED

2006 OLYMPIC GAMES

BEST CENTERMAN IN THE WORLD --> Voted on the first allstar team... not Sundin, not Foresburg, Not Thorton..SAKU KOIVU!!!

Gomez does not have the GRIT, LEADERSHIP, HEART of Saku!

Come playoff time, I'd take Saku anyday of the week, twice on Saturday night!


Stats do not win cups... this guy will lead us if we surround him with talent. We are finally getting there!


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07-27-2006, 06:37 PM
  #62
mcphee
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Originally Posted by GermanyMontrealExpat View Post
A lot of teams are faced with those same issues, which leads me to believe that LL may not be getting as much as you say, especially since the 29 others have him over a barrel. If that's the case, the cost might be 3-4 players, with a comparable pick perhaps coming back for another team for the players we deal away, depending on the sequence of events. So the net cost might be 2-3 players.

Edit: I don't think that he will fetch as much as Pronger, for the simple reason that the Oilers could have waited a little before shipping him out, i.e.: sometime during the season, a luxury that LL does not have, and because Pronger is in an elite level "somewhat" beyond Gomez.
You could very well be right. I guess what we don't know, is #1- The cost to acquire him #2 The cost to keep him

#3 the cost to make room. If it can be done, hey, he's a very creative player. Maybe he is the guy. I just see too many things having to fall into place, but that's Gainey and Brisebois' job.

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07-28-2006, 07:58 AM
  #63
Joe Cole
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You think there's maybe a reason why they still, after so many years, haven't gotten that big dominating centerman?

Drafting, trading, developing.

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07-28-2006, 08:11 AM
  #64
Joe Cole
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Originally Posted by GermanyMontrealExpat View Post
Just what exactly did Wickenheiser dominate? People often confound height and dominance. You can't reduce everything to just height. Skill and fire in the belly count for something, otherwise it would be easy to discount for someone who measures just 1m73, someone like... Joe Cole
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.ra...playerId=43188 .
Not the same Joe Cole.... I have at least 7 vertical inches on that Joe Cole.

Regarding Wickenhiser, I agree he did not develop into what we expected when we drafted him. The point is we drafted him as a replacement for Pete Mahavolich because we needed that type in the line up. And we still have not gotten one.

And I do not reduce everything to height, but... In a 82 game season, a 10 season career... a little man who plays a big man's game is bound to have more injuries and be less durable. That is just fact. Part of being a player that a team builds around is being a player which is consistant, and part of that is being on the active roster, not on the DL.

And ofcourse we can all pull out a player name or two that is an exception to that generalization. Here's one, Lindros.

Everyone prefers a guy with fire in his belly. I prefer Koivu over Marcel Hossa. Hell, I prefer Petrov over Marcel. But truth be told, when you play in a division like ours, you need size down the middle.

If you watched the playoffs, you saw it. Size... AND speed. Anaheim, Edmonton, Carolina...

If you have to dream up a perfect player to play in the NHL... he comes in at over 6'1", every time.

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