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03-10-2013, 01:06 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Was just killing time reading through various teams' boards. Quick thoughts from a Minnesota perspective.

Nick Schultz is what he is. An average size defender that skates at an above average level. Generally fairly sound positionally. Any physical contact is virtually non-existent and he's among the league worst at moving the puck. If you're looking for a clean breakout from him, forget it. He patented the no-look, panic ring the puck around the boards here in Minnesota. He's a decent solidifying type of player on the bottom pairing but truth be told, there's a lot of organizations that have multiple players that can fill in for his role and not miss a beat. Biggest complaint about his time here is that he'll never give you any more than a decent game.

As far as what I've seen from Gilbert here in Minnesota, I've loved the trade (sorry to say for you guys). With that said, you're going to see a greater swing in terms of consistency. He'll have some clunker of games and decisions here and there but he'll also have moments that back up his position in a top 4 pairing.

So I guess it probably depends on what you're looking for in terms of your defenseman. For Minnesota, Gilbert provides elements in his game that are not readily available. Whereas in this system, Schultz was/is a replacement level player.
Thank you for taking the time on our boards. I agree with everything you stated and I'd regularly watched Wild games over the years because I like system play. ftr I most liked seeing Willy Mitchell actually be a shutdown defender in front of Roloson years ago. I think N Schultz had a lot of potential benefit playing with Mitchell but I don't know he gained much.

But, yeah, for some reason at the time of trade N Schultz's assets were being overstated. I have no doubt Nick is a liked person in the dressing room and missed among players(afairc Clutterbuck and others were quite passionate about being sad about seeing Nick go) but as a hockey player I never saw much more from Nick than a Steve Staios bang it off the boards game but WITHOUT the physicality.

In fact one of the most ironic things about the trade is that a large segment of this board disliked Gilbert because of his non physical play. For that Gilbert has been called any number of unfortunate names by this fanbase with every rude suggestion attached to it. So for a large faction of posters seeing "Tammy" go for what was predetermined to be a physical shutdown D that would clear the net(which was some mistakenly deduced here).was openly welcomed.

I really have no idea how people that prefer physical D, and that wanted to get rid of Gilbert on that basis, welcomed the addition of N Schultz. It makes no sense to me then or now.

Interestingly enough when the trade was first announced the initial reaction here was shock, recoil, disgust for several pages of the trade thread. But people talked themselves into somehow liking the trade and believing that N Schultz would be a much better fit here and key piece. They somehow believed Nick was a shutdown D.

Perhaps better to trust initial responses sometimes.

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03-10-2013, 01:20 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I think everyone here is remembering Tom Gilbert with rose colored glasses. The guy was a giveaway machine, hurt himself whenever he tried to play physical and was pretty much useless in our own zone.

The problem with Nick Schultz is that he is being played too much and in situations where he shouldn't. The real question to me is, how in the hell would our defense be better off with Gilbert, considering we would then have Gilbert, J. Schultz, Petry, Potter, and Whitney as offense first (or offense only) guys and Smid, Peckham and Fistric as defense guys. There is little enough balance on this team as it is.

Even if Gilbert IS better, I don't think he's much better, and Schultz fit the team needs we had at the time.
How on Earth was a guy a "giveaway" machine that played 5 full seasons, something like 360GP, here, and fared much better than the vast majority of his teammates considered that way?

Whatever mistakes Gilbert by and large he played a game effective enough that in his CAREER here he was a total combined -27 on a club where some players would hit -40 in ONE SEASON.

What has to be remembered is that Gilbert played for years on the absolute worst team in the league. In a year in which the club had a -80 differential, and Gilbert was playing 23mins night, he was logging half the EV minutes the team had. He was -10 on that club. We had guys that were minus 35 that year for perspective that played far less minutes.

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03-10-2013, 01:24 PM
  #78
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And the Petry we had last year isn't the real Petry, just like the one we have now isn't the real Petry either. We won't know what we have for at least another year or two. That's normal for guys just entering the league, especially defenseman. You would think Tambo would know that...
Yeah exactly. The problem is that Tambellini was banking on Petry's development continuing on a constant uptick when in reality, almost all young defensemen (especially risk takers like Petry) have peaks and valleys in their development before they gain consistency.
This has always been Tambo's problem, putting young players in positions to fail because they are given too much responsibility too soon with little veteran support to fall back on when they struggle. The same thing is happening with Justin Schultz now, it's too much too soon for him and the problem is that there's no veterans behind him on the depth chart capable of giving him a breather to collect himself.

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03-10-2013, 03:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
How on Earth was a guy a "giveaway" machine that played 5 full seasons, something like 360GP, here, and fared much better than the vast majority of his teammates considered that way?

Whatever mistakes Gilbert by and large he played a game effective enough that in his CAREER here he was a total combined -27 on a club where some players would hit -40 in ONE SEASON.

What has to be remembered is that Gilbert played for years on the absolute worst team in the league. In a year in which the club had a -80 differential, and Gilbert was playing 23mins night, he was logging half the EV minutes the team had. He was -10 on that club. We had guys that were minus 35 that year for perspective that played far less minutes.
Rose colored glasses. Throw out all the stats you want, Gilbert was not good defensively, and was downright awful defensively more often than not.

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03-10-2013, 07:23 PM
  #80
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Frankly I was disgusted that a team that had determined Gilbert was useful enough to play 26mins suddenly felt he was expendable and that we didn't need his services at all.
One thing that has been true for a long time now is a distinct difference between coach evaluation and GM evaluation. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that has something to do with the way the teams have performed for the last several seasons too.

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03-10-2013, 09:21 PM
  #81
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I somewhat liked the trade when it happened but Schultz has been poor this year. People really miss Tom Gilbert; how soon we forget. We have a Tom Gilbert clone here and he wears #2. They are the identical player and you can't have more than one guy on the blueline that doesn't compete whatsoever.

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03-10-2013, 09:32 PM
  #82
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Gilbert has been far from lights out for a Minny as well Worst plus minus on his team as well trade still a wash imo. And Gilbert has brought Suter defensive play down a level as well.

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03-10-2013, 09:35 PM
  #83
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I refuse to give credit to Tambo for 1st overall picks or for signing a guy like Schultz who made the decision to be here based on the 1st overall picks (and lack of defensive depth).

So other than that sort of "transaction", almost everything that Tambo has done has sucked terribly.

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03-10-2013, 09:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Lessy View Post
I somewhat liked the trade when it happened but Schultz has been poor this year. People really miss Tom Gilbert; how soon we forget. We have a Tom Gilbert clone here and he wears #2. They are the identical player and you can't have more than one guy on the blueline that doesn't compete whatsoever.
Except Gilbert was a downright prolific scorer compared to anyone we have now, on worse teams.

When it comes to defensive issues, the "saw him bad" crowd is really crazy on this one and always has been. We have had so many players who were worse defensively, and continue to have a solid number who are worse defensively.

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03-10-2013, 10:16 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by alphahelix View Post
I refuse to give credit to Tambo for 1st overall picks or for signing a guy like Schultz who made the decision to be here based on the 1st overall picks (and lack of defensive depth).
Indeed. Nobody deserves special credit for making obvious draft selections. If you are going to dish out praise for that, you have to acknowledge how badly his team had to suck in order to get the pick (unless you were a trading wizard and landed the first overall pick while putting a playoff team on the ice).

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03-10-2013, 10:57 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by alphahelix View Post
Except Gilbert was a downright prolific scorer compared to anyone we have now, on worse teams.

When it comes to defensive issues, the "saw him bad" crowd is really crazy on this one and always has been. We have had so many players who were worse defensively, and continue to have a solid number who are worse defensively.
Justin Schultz is a more prolific scorer than Gilbert and he's a rookie. Of course we have worse defensive players than Gilbert but those players shouldn't be in the NHL and it's ridiculous that the Potter's and Peckham's of the world continue to see minutes on this club. We have a solid number who are worse defensively, I'd agree, which speaks volumes as to how bad we are on the blueline outside of Schultz, Smid and on occasion Petry/Schultz.

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03-11-2013, 10:09 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Gilbert has been far from lights out for a Minny as well Worst plus minus on his team as well trade still a wash imo. And Gilbert has brought Suter defensive play down a level as well.
Gilbert doesn't play on the same pairing as Suter so I don't know how that's possible. Suter has played with Brodin ever since he was called up. As for Suter, he gets the most ice time of any player in the NHL so naturally he's going to be out there for quite a few goals against, always playing against the other team's top lines, while our lower pairings get the easier and less threatening opponent's lines to deal with. Not trying to come in here and start a war or anything like that, just trying to point out a few things about our d-men.

As for the trade, I can't say I'm not happy with it. Gilbert does have his share of turnovers, there's no denying that, but he's been steady enough for us and his offense is greatly appreciated. I never was a Schultz fan in the first place. His play was souring on me greatly last season before he was traded. Countless times I remember him standing in the slot, watching the puck go right through his legs and onto the stick of an opponent for a goal. The trade filled a need for both teams, and neither one of them is exactly having a stellar season defensively anyway. Just my two cents.

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03-11-2013, 10:57 PM
  #88
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Today Stauffer mentioned that Schultz was being exposed because he was miscast and playing too many minutes. I'd have to agree that he is a 5/6 not a 3/4. Gilbert is a 3/4, I think its pretty clear we took this one on the chin. I was willing to give this a chance because I was under the impression Schultz was a physical shut down dman. I'd have to say I've been sorely disappointed. To top things off we are paying a 5/6 3.5 mil a year. Kinda crappy cap management.

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03-11-2013, 11:16 PM
  #89
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Schultz has twice as many blocked shots and hits as Gilbert has.

Prior to the trade, everyone wanted a dman who would do those things, because quite frankly, Gilbert never did. That's what Schultz is doing. He's not going to stand anyone up on the blueline, but unless your expectations of him were overextended, he's probably giving us about what you would/should have expected.

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03-11-2013, 11:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by alphahelix View Post
Except Gilbert was a downright prolific scorer compared to anyone we have now, on worse teams.
Do you close your eyes when J. Schultz is on the ice?

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03-11-2013, 11:58 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
Schultz has twice as many blocked shots and hits as Gilbert has.

Prior to the trade, everyone wanted a dman who would do those things, because quite frankly, Gilbert never did. That's what Schultz is doing. He's not going to stand anyone up on the blueline, but unless your expectations of him were overextended, he's probably giving us about what you would/should have expected.
I sure hope management doesn't think its ok to over pay to fill our perceived needs. If this is the case the next year or so could get really ugly. I sure hope they don't move another skilled guy for a meatball.

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03-12-2013, 12:41 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
Schultz has twice as many blocked shots and hits as Gilbert has.

Prior to the trade, everyone wanted a dman who would do those things, because quite frankly, Gilbert never did. That's what Schultz is doing. He's not going to stand anyone up on the blueline, but unless your expectations of him were overextended, he's probably giving us about what you would/should have expected.
Fistric has almost twice as many hits in half the games and his shot blocked per game is close to Schultz's. Maybe we should have just given up Gilbert for him instead then? Management got bent over on the deal I dunno how anyone can defend it after seeing N.Schultz play over the last year.

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03-12-2013, 09:25 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Don't you guys think Gilbert is benefitting from the same system many are saying Schultz benefitted from while in Minnesota?
Except Gilbert looked decent here where there was no conceivable system, while Schultz has been the Schitz.

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03-12-2013, 09:27 AM
  #94
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Schultz has twice as many blocked shots and hits as Gilbert has.
Two stats that tell me the other team has the puck when Schultz is on the ice.

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03-12-2013, 09:37 AM
  #95
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Smid-J. Schultz
Gilbert-Petry
Fistric-Peckham

If Sutton wan't hurt put him in Peckham's spot and the Oilers defense would be "decent".
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sutton is a perfect 6th defenseman. we miss him badly.
Wow I see how the delusions start on HFOil here.

Fact 1: the Oilers d-core wouldn't be anywhere close to decent if we had Sutton over Peckham. Might be an upgrade but far from decent.

Fact 2: the Oilers are a far cry away from missing another #6 d-man badly. Everyone on that d-core is a number 5-6 right now(Sans Smid). How does not having another number 6 ad anything other then a bit of addition by subtraction?

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03-12-2013, 09:40 AM
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Two stats that tell me the other team has the puck when Schultz is on the ice.
Oh so when he's on the ice your expectation is he'll control the puck for his entire shift? Or is it that he'll retreive the puck by not having to black it or dish out a hit?

Not really sure what your point is here.

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03-12-2013, 10:01 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Fistric has almost twice as many hits in half the games and his shot blocked per game is close to Schultz's. Maybe we should have just given up Gilbert for him instead then? Management got bent over on the deal I dunno how anyone can defend it after seeing N.Schultz play over the last year.
The feelings on this board about Gilbert are quite clear. When commentary sinks to the "Tammy" type level you know that for many serious evaluation of the player is not taking place.

In the fanbase certain players take the punch in the nose just by being here through the worst years. Instead of evaluating these players fairly and on an individual basis they are viewed as incapable largely through affiliation with a league worst team. Which aids and abets anything is better grass is greener thinking. Some fans would just like to flush the memory of years of poor teams down the toilet and even including the good players that we have had.

You could be the best players in the lineup but its somehow essential to deal you elsewhere..for whatever we get. N Schultz type kibble or worse.

If you read what I just wrote there closely you'll know it explains much of what goes on here.

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03-12-2013, 10:08 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
Schultz has twice as many blocked shots and hits as Gilbert has.

Prior to the trade, everyone wanted a dman who would do those things, because quite frankly, Gilbert never did. That's what Schultz is doing. He's not going to stand anyone up on the blueline, but unless your expectations of him were overextended, he's probably giving us about what you would/should have expected.
The worst teams tend to offer the opportunity to have the most shot blocks on the basis of spending the most time in own zone. Being that shot blocks only occur in own zone.

It is a poor, and non intuitive stat which on first glance might be assumed to be a positive aspect of play but on closer evaluation also reveals tendencies and concerns.

For instance, shot blocks in some instances being desperate attempts to prevent a serious scoring opportunity that was in the first place allowed. Nor do shot blocks differentiate between 5 on 5 play where they should be rarely necessary vs shorthanded blocks where they are. I state that because in Even play opponents should not be left so open that a shot block is required.

Finally, theres no indication in shot blocks of what degree of success there was. D's particularly are over committed when they block a shot. Who knows whether they just deflect the puck and theres a resultant goal, goal off a rebound, etc. What we know with a shotblock is the player is then committed. That can be both good and bad. The good being you have a player willing to make sacrifice. The bad being the player can't easily recover from a fake, deke, etc.

When I see a player with a ton of shot blocks I can more easily think they have a limited arsenal of tools. To wit Charlie Huddy likely would have led Paul Coffey in shot blocks any year running. But what does the stat really tell you about overall efficacy or even ability?

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03-12-2013, 10:11 AM
  #99
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Oh so when he's on the ice your expectation is he'll control the puck for his entire shift? Or is it that he'll retreive the puck by not having to black it or dish out a hit?
I think it's pretty straightforward and backed up by what we've seen on the ice: Nick Schultz isn't a guy who pushes the play with the puck and he isn't good at retrieving the puck when he doesn't have it, meaning he's in a position where he's chasing guys or having to block shots (it's not a PK thing either since he's third in SH TOI). Perhaps that's to be expected as a "stay at home defenceman" but I have a personal preference for guys who play a possession game, guys who might cough up the puck, but whom can at least be expected to have it on their stick at some point and for more than a dinky chip off the glass.

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03-12-2013, 10:19 AM
  #100
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Schultz hasn't been very good but I can't believe people are missing Gilbert. I guess people all have their favorites or their own definitions of a good defenceman but IMO, neither one of them is all that **** hot.

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