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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-09-2013, 11:47 PM
  #926
Nihiliste
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On a more positive note, I've been critical of Sherman, but to be honest, almost every rebuild has its roadblocks. Some of them are a lot worse than the ones we've had Sherman make.

Look at the Blackhawks in the middle of their rebuild:
2004 #3 Cam Barker
2005 #7 Jack Skille
2008 #11 Kyle Beach

Those are a LOT worse in terms of value wasted than moving Stewart/Shattenkirk for EJ/Siemens and Varly for F. Forsberg. In fact, Pat Kane was the only player from the 2007 draft onwards to play on the 2010 Hawks cup winning team.

Rebuilds can obviously be done in different ways and not all moves will pan out. I do think that a core of Duchene, Landeskog, O'reilly, EJ, Varly with good complimentary pieces in Stastny, Parenteau, Mcginn, Barrie is a pretty damn good start. We've run thin on prospect depth and valuable trade chips but that just means we need to be patient for a couple years, let our young guys develop, keep evaluating where our guys are as individuals as a team, keep trying to draft well and make good hockey trades and signings where you can. They won't all work out, and it'll take time, but I think that's only realistic.

After doing some more research into mistakes and ups and downs in other recent rebuilds I think I may perhaps have been too critical of Sherman in this thread. I'm not happy with him and still have my doubts as to his abilities to take this team the rest of the way but realistically he's kept pace with some other recent rebuilds.

Some of management's worst mistakes are really ones not related to acquiring the core - horrible inexperienced coaching, no goalie coach, apparently no nutritionist, not placing guys in the best possible position to succeed and develop.

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03-09-2013, 11:57 PM
  #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
On a more positive note, I've been critical of Sherman, but to be honest, almost every rebuild has its roadblocks. Some of them are a lot worse than the ones we've had Sherman make.

Look at the Blackhawks in the middle of their rebuild:
2004 #3 Cam Barker
2005 #7 Jack Skille
2008 #11 Kyle Beach

Those are a LOT worse in terms of value wasted than moving Stewart/Shattenkirk for EJ/Siemens and Varly for F. Forsberg. In fact, Pat Kane was the only player from the 2007 draft onwards to play on the 2010 Hawks cup winning team.

Rebuilds can obviously be done in different ways and not all moves will pan out. I do think that a core of Duchene, Landeskog, O'reilly, EJ, Varly with good complimentary pieces in Stastny, Parenteau, Mcginn, Barrie is a pretty damn good start. We've run thin on prospect depth and valuable trade chips but that just means we need to be patient for a couple years, let our young guys develop, keep evaluating where our guys are as individuals as a team, keep trying to draft well and make good hockey trades and signings where you can. They won't all work out, and it'll take time, but I think that's only realistic.

After doing some more research into mistakes and ups and downs in other recent rebuilds I think I may perhaps have been too critical of Sherman in this thread. I'm not happy with him and still have my doubts as to his abilities to take this team the rest of the way but realistically he's kept pace with some other recent rebuilds.

Some of management's worst mistakes are really ones not related to acquiring the core - horrible inexperienced coaching, no goalie coach, apparently no nutritionist, not placing guys in the best possible position to succeed and develop.
Good points all around--I think the key is getting that core of talent in place, and you can overcome the occasional blunder. I think that's the difference between a rebuild in Chicago succeeding vs. a place like Florida where rebuilding seems like it's never ending.

It's true, the organization as a whole does not do the little things right. I hope they get with the system and correct that, but I'm none too confident with this ownership and management group in place.

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03-10-2013, 12:00 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
On a more positive note, I've been critical of Sherman, but to be honest, almost every rebuild has its roadblocks. Some of them are a lot worse than the ones we've had Sherman make.

Look at the Blackhawks in the middle of their rebuild:
2004 #3 Cam Barker
2005 #7 Jack Skille
2008 #11 Kyle Beach

Those are a LOT worse in terms of value wasted than moving Stewart/Shattenkirk for EJ/Siemens and Varly for F. Forsberg. In fact, Pat Kane was the only player from the 2007 draft onwards to play on the 2010 Hawks cup winning team.

Rebuilds can obviously be done in different ways and not all moves will pan out. I do think that a core of Duchene, Landeskog, O'reilly, EJ, Varly with good complimentary pieces in Stastny, Parenteau, Mcginn, Barrie is a pretty damn good start. We've run thin on prospect depth and valuable trade chips but that just means we need to be patient for a couple years, let our young guys develop, keep evaluating where our guys are as individuals as a team, keep trying to draft well and make good hockey trades and signings where you can. They won't all work out, and it'll take time, but I think that's only realistic.

After doing some more research into mistakes and ups and downs in other recent rebuilds I think I may perhaps have been too critical of Sherman in this thread. I'm not happy with him and still have my doubts as to his abilities to take this team the rest of the way but realistically he's kept pace with some other recent rebuilds.

Some of management's worst mistakes are really ones not related to acquiring the core - horrible inexperienced coaching, no goalie coach, apparently no nutritionist, not placing guys in the best possible position to succeed and develop.
I know injuries are part of the game but I still think that with less injuries to our important players and a better coach, I think people would be a lot happier with Sherman at this point in the season and in our rebuild.

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03-10-2013, 04:04 AM
  #929
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I know injuries are part of the game but I still think that with less injuries to our important players and a better coach, I think people would be a lot happier with Sherman at this point in the season and in our rebuild.
A good coach will do wonders. I think that Sacco was a good coach to get the youngers to improve their skills, but it's time to turn that skill into production and Sacco is not the right guy for that. Time to move on.

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03-10-2013, 11:12 AM
  #930
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I know injuries are part of the game but I still think that with less injuries to our important players and a better coach, I think people would be a lot happier with Sherman at this point in the season and in our rebuild.
100% agree. Most of the turn on Sherman is due to the poor performance of the team this season, and most of that has to do with injuries and coaching IMO. They have still built a very good foundation for the future in Dutchy, O'Reilly, Landy, and maybe Staz, and brought in some nice pieces like PAP, EJ, Varly, McGinn, Downie, and Mitchell. That's a pretty solid rebuild.

Last game against Chicago was just a glimpse of what they can be if they play up to their potential. Now if they can find a coach to bring that out of them consistently, and another offensive D to play with EJ, look out.

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03-10-2013, 11:29 PM
  #931
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Although I'm happy with Sherman overall, after reading this on SJS' board, I got a bit happier

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So it looks like after trading Heatley, McGinn, Sgarbossa, Setoguchi and Coyle the Sharks have TJ Galiardi to show for it.
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Don't forget the 1st.
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Well, I wanted to only list players. We don't know what DW would do with the pick. I also forgot Connolly.
could not help but give a little chuckle

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03-10-2013, 11:40 PM
  #932
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Although I'm happy with Sherman overall, after reading this on SJS' board, I got a bit happier







could not help but give a little chuckle
You got to wonder if the Sharks will just clean house from the GM down if they finish the season like they've been playing.

You guys thought Sherman was bad, those returns are pretty ugly. They've rolled the dice over and over again on the same core, and got nothing to show for it.

BTW, that's why you don't just keep guys hanging around like Mueller and Flash, and rather turn the page and move on as an organization looking ahead. If SJ would have left some spots open, they could have McGinn and who knows what else playing at a high level for them. Instead they more or less just keep the same group.

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03-10-2013, 11:46 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You got to wonder if the Sharks will just clean house from the GM down if they finish the season like they've been playing.

You guys thought Sherman was bad, those returns are pretty ugly. They've rolled the dice over and over again on the same core, and got nothing to show for it.
Granted Burns and Havlat are still there, but lengthy injuries. They posted a stat that they scored more goals game 1-7 than they have 8-now. How frustrating for them. A cleaning is in order I think.

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03-10-2013, 11:49 PM
  #934
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Although I'm happy with Sherman overall, after reading this on SJS' board, I got a bit happier
I can't blame Doug Wilson. He's been managing a high end veteran team which has underachieved. He had to make moves to try to win in the present.

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03-10-2013, 11:57 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You got to wonder if the Sharks will just clean house from the GM down if they finish the season like they've been playing.

You guys thought Sherman was bad, those returns are pretty ugly. They've rolled the dice over and over again on the same core, and got nothing to show for it.

BTW, that's why you don't just keep guys hanging around like Mueller and Flash, and rather turn the page and move on as an organization looking ahead. If SJ would have left some spots open, they could have McGinn and who knows what else playing at a high level for them. Instead they more or less just keep the same group.
Losing Coyle for the perpetually injured Burns was a horrible trade for them, especially since Coyle was the last ace prospect they had left in the system. And it's early yet, but he's looking really good for the Wylde right now.

I'd say Wilson has done a really good job overall, but he messed up on his last two trades big-time. Not sure why he let Winnik walk. They could really use him this season.

McLellan's definitely a goner, but I wouldn't be floored if Wilson were shown the door as well. I think if they flip Thornton/Marleau for good returns they might be able to stage a quick rebuild around Couture/Pavelski. But that might be hard with two big-salary players like that and a cap that's going down next season.

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03-11-2013, 12:08 AM
  #936
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Losing Coyle for the perpetually injured Burns was a horrible trade for them, especially since Coyle was the last ace prospect they had left in the system. And it's early yet, but he's looking really good for the Wylde right now.

I'd say Wilson has done a really good job overall, but he messed up on his last two trades big-time. Not sure why he let Winnik walk. They could really use him this season.

McLellan's definitely a goner, but I wouldn't be floored if Wilson were shown the door as well. I think if they flip Thornton/Marleau for good returns they might be able to stage a quick rebuild around Couture/Pavelski. But that might be hard with two big-salary players like that and a cap that's going down next season.
I assume Winnik left for more money. I think its time the Sharks at least move Marleau, and maybe Thornton.

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03-11-2013, 12:14 AM
  #937
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I assume Winnik left for more money. I think its time the Sharks at least move Marleau, and maybe Thornton.
Winnik wanted a lot, but he didn't get it, in fact he signed for the same amount Burish got from SJ, with one major exception, Dan got 2 years and Burish got 4. Burish flat out sucks and Dan is killing it in Anaheim, this was a panic move that blew right in DW's face.

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03-11-2013, 12:27 AM
  #938
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I assume Winnik left for more money. I think its time the Sharks at least move Marleau, and maybe Thornton.
Sure he did, and that's why the Avs didn't keep him either, but he signed in Anaheim for $1.8 million per, couldn't have been asking for much more than that. In any event they're hurting for forward depth so badly they signed Scott Gomez off the scrap heap.

I've read they might actually buy out Havlat. He was that bad before his obligatory injury.

Marleau and Thornton likely have trade protection in their deals, and I know ownership loves them, so it's going to be difficult to move them even without the salaries to consider. But they gotta do SOMETHING. It just ain't working.

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03-11-2013, 02:01 AM
  #939
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Looking at teams like the Sharks and Sabres, it makes me appreciate what Sherman has done so much more (I still don't like how he let go of Mueller and Flash, but i'm done debating that point). Both those teams look better on paper than the Avs right now, yet they're both struggling. They technically have all the pieces, a bunch of skilled players, two way guys, vets, etc., yet they don't look like contending teams, far from it.

The one thing the Avs have are heart and soul type players like Landeskog, Downie, O'Reilly, Varly, and Duchene. Add that to the mix of talent of PAP, McGinn, EJ, Stastny, Barrie (yes i'm adding him), and i'm loving our team make up.

The Avs have done a complete 360 with Landeskog and O'Reilly back, I think that's a huge sign of which players actually turn the cogs. We can use the excuse that there were huge holes in the lineup with all our injuries, but honestly when it boils down to it that's just an excuse IMO. Also, anyone wanting to ship out O'Reilly for his holdout is crazy. I firmly believe that if he's let go of the Avs will be a worse team, regardless who we get back.

I'm probably going to regret posting this once we get destroyed by our division next week agains the Oilers and Wild.

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03-11-2013, 07:22 AM
  #940
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Sure he did, and that's why the Avs didn't keep him either, but he signed in Anaheim for $1.8 million per, couldn't have been asking for much more than that. In any event they're hurting for forward depth so badly they signed Scott Gomez off the scrap heap.

I've read they might actually buy out Havlat. He was that bad before his obligatory injury.

Marleau and Thornton likely have trade protection in their deals, and I know ownership loves them, so it's going to be difficult to move them even without the salaries to consider. But they gotta do SOMETHING. It just ain't working.
if i remember correct he was asking for over 2,5 per season

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03-11-2013, 08:24 AM
  #941
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I don't want to get ahead of myself here, because it wouldn't surprise me if the Avs lose to the Oilers tomorrow night and then Minnesota on Thursday, but it is hard not to feel a little positive about this past week.

The first season it was Duchene, O'Reilly, and Stastny. Duchene was Good, Stastny was good, and O'Reilly wasn't as good as he is now.

Then the next season Duchene was good, Stastny wasn't as good, O'Reilly was the same.

Then the third season Duchene was bad, O'Reilly was good, and Stastny declined again.

Now this season Duchene has been amazing, Stastny has been better of late, and O'Reilly is showing that he can be even better than he was last season. This is the first time all three centers are putting it all together, and it is really showing in how this team plays.

Add to this EJ and Wilson returning, Landeskog getting back into shape, hopefully Barrie back in the lineup soon, and it is really easy to see why the team has looked so much better. It has been a loooooong time since the Avs had this many good players in the lineup at once. If the Avs were able to put this team on the ice from the start of the season, I'm sure Sherman would have a lot more fans.

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03-11-2013, 11:00 PM
  #942
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I don't want to get ahead of myself here, because it wouldn't surprise me if the Avs lose to the Oilers tomorrow night and then Minnesota on Thursday, but it is hard not to feel a little positive about this past week.

The first season it was Duchene, O'Reilly, and Stastny. Duchene was Good, Stastny was good, and O'Reilly wasn't as good as he is now.

Then the next season Duchene was good, Stastny wasn't as good, O'Reilly was the same.

Then the third season Duchene was bad, O'Reilly was good, and Stastny declined again.

Now this season Duchene has been amazing, Stastny has been better of late, and O'Reilly is showing that he can be even better than he was last season. This is the first time all three centers are putting it all together, and it is really showing in how this team plays.

Add to this EJ and Wilson returning, Landeskog getting back into shape, hopefully Barrie back in the lineup soon, and it is really easy to see why the team has looked so much better. It has been a loooooong time since the Avs had this many good players in the lineup at once. If the Avs were able to put this team on the ice from the start of the season, I'm sure Sherman would have a lot more fans.
The simple fact of the matter is that he over-paid for EJ and seriously over-valued Barrie and Elliot. Enough so to trade away one of the best offensive defensemen in the league.

With Stewart and Shattenkirk we are are a better team.

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03-11-2013, 11:09 PM
  #943
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The simple fact of the matter is that he over-paid for EJ and seriously over-valued Barrie and Elliot. Enough so to trade away one of the best offensive defensemen in the league.

With Stewart and Shattenkirk we are are a better team.
I'm legitimately curious as to why you constantly bring up the EJ Trade? It would make sense if we were actively discussing that, which I know some posters are, but doing a quick scan shows me that the last time the EJ/Stewart trade was brought up was on 3/9/13.

And the post you quoted wasn't even discussing it.

I mean we all get it Heebs, you did not/do not like the trade.

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03-12-2013, 07:42 AM
  #944
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if i remember correct he was asking for over 2,5 per season
Possibly. In any event, he traded three young players who could help his team immensely right now for two players, one of whom was set to be a UFA at season's end. I'm obviously glad he did, but it was a big mistake either way and the trade was a complete and utter failure. McGinn is turning into a legit top-six forward while Galiardi is turning back into an AHL player.

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I can't blame Doug Wilson. He's been managing a high end veteran team which has underachieved. He had to make moves to try to win in the present.
Oh, I think Sharks fans certainly can blame him. Again, he's been very good since taking over for Lombardi, but he traded his best (and pretty much only) prospect for an oft-injured defenseman, who is injured right now.

Kinda weird watching highlights of the Sharks/Avs game the other night. I can still remember being at the Pepsi Center for an Avs playoff game and both Selanne and Marleau made a fool of Roy (he actually apologized after the game for his performance). The Sharks were a pretty scary team back then, able to ice three very talented lines, and then they snagged Thornton for near-nothing. And then they got Boyle for absolutely nothing. For a short time they were scary good. But the time has passed. I don't think it has to be blown up per se, but it does have to be radically different come next year.

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03-12-2013, 08:28 AM
  #945
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Possibly. In any event, he traded three young players who could help his team immensely right now for two players, one of whom was set to be a UFA at season's end. I'm obviously glad he did, but it was a big mistake either way and the trade was a complete and utter failure. McGinn is turning into a legit top-six forward while Galiardi is turning back into an AHL player.
I remember standing in my living room and TSN said the Avs had traded Galiardi and Winnik to San Jose, but weren't sure of the return yet. I was hoping so badly it was Clowe coming back. I was pretty disappointed it wasn't him. Got to say, I'm pretty happy we have McGinn instead, who is producing a lot more and isn't about to get a huge payday.

I'm hoping Sherman is going to pull off a Hannan type deal, and trade O'Byrne for an under-performing UFA forward who catches lightning in a bottle for 10 games here.

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03-12-2013, 10:46 AM
  #946
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I'll give Sherman props for making the move to snatch Palushaj off the waiver wire--what surprises me about Pajamas is his ability as a puck possession forward. The kid does an amazing job securing the puck and slowing things down in the attacking zone. Perfect complement for O'Reilly.

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03-12-2013, 11:26 AM
  #947
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The simple fact of the matter is that he over-paid for EJ and seriously over-valued Barrie and Elliot. Enough so to trade away one of the best offensive defensemen in the league.

With Stewart and Shattenkirk we are are a better team.
I disagree. With Johnson, we actually have a great defensemen. With Shattenkirk, we'd have a great offensive defensemen. Right now, we need Johnson.

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03-12-2013, 11:56 AM
  #948
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I disagree. With Johnson, we actually have a great defensemen. With Shattenkirk, we'd have a great offensive defensemen. Right now, we need Johnson.
I think Terry Frei nailed it on the head. As of right now, Erik Johnson has been "pretty good." If this trade is to work out for the Avs, he needs to be great. So far we've seen flashes of excellence, but nothing that says he's taken that next step.

Shattenkirk is a star. Stewart, though inconsistent as all hell, is a star. Both are one-dimensional stars, yes, but stars nonetheless. EJ has the talent and determination to be a star, but he's got to get the confidence.

I may be annoyed with the way some present the argument, but to say this trade was a success is still very, very premature.

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03-12-2013, 12:33 PM
  #949
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Chris Stewart isn't a star in any shape, way or form. He's a one dimensional floater who has a tendency to go on hot streaks, then he disappears for weeks and he can't produce without good support around him, plus he doesn't seems like a guy with an abundance of hockey IQ. Honestly considering his size and skill he should be a much better player than he is, for me he's one of the biggest underachievers in the NHL and I don't see it changing.

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03-12-2013, 12:52 PM
  #950
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Chris Stewart isn't a star in any shape, way or form. He's a one dimensional floater who has a tendency to go on hot streaks, then he disappears for weeks and he can't produce without good support around him, plus he doesn't seems like a guy with an abundance of hockey IQ. Honestly considering his size and skill he should be a much better player than he is, for me he's one of the biggest underachievers in the NHL and I don't see it changing.
Whatever, I don't want possibly misplaced praise of Stewart to derail the argument--EJ needs to be better in order for this trade to work out and the Avs to take that next step forward. We have a young centerman who is proving he has the talent and determination to take over games. EJ needs to take a page from Dutchy's book and do the same.

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