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Old
07-25-2006, 08:30 PM
  #76
Mike8
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
When the Habs overpay or lose assets I care.
That's business, though, and not indicative of how healthy the league itself is. The CBA made the league healthier. So that's why you and this Simmons character (I can't really call him a journalist, based on what I've seen) need to stop pushing this mentality that the league's got the same problems it used to. It doesn't. All of the league's previous problems have been addressed. Now we'll see one or two new concerns pop up, but that has no relevance to the old problems that were identified and rectified in the lock-out.

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07-25-2006, 08:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
That's business, though, and not indicative of how healthy the league itself is. The CBA made the league healthier. So that's why you and this Simmons character (I can't really call him a journalist, based on what I've seen) need to stop pushing this mentality that the league's got the same problems it used to. It doesn't. All of the league's previous problems have been addressed. Now we'll see one or two new concerns pop up, but that has no relevance to the old problems that were identified and rectified in the lock-out.
Arbitration impacts negatively on the league. As for thats business arbitration is laissez faire so thats hokum.

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07-25-2006, 09:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
Arbitration impacts negatively on the league. As for thats business arbitration is laissez faire so thats hokum.
I may not like the arbitration process, but it doesn't negatively impact the league. It has the same impact on every team, and merely promotes more movement. You personally disliking it does not make it a universal truth that it's having a negative impact on the league.

The fact is that the league's just as healthy as it would be without the arbitration process.

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07-25-2006, 09:35 PM
  #79
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What Briere was on pace for shouldn't come into play. If we are going to base a guys salary on what "may" happen then many guys deserve 5 million. Hell if i had 10 points in 10 games, i guess i should get 5 million to because over a course of a season, i'd have 82 points.
Actually it should. His comparables are Havlat and Gaborik who are oft injured talented players that have never had a really huge full season either.

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07-25-2006, 10:24 PM
  #80
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Havlat - 235 points in 298 games (0.79 PPG) & just turned 25 at the end of the season

Gaborik - 274 points in 360 games (0.76 PPG) & 3 seasons with 60+ points at the tender age of 24

Briere - 281 points in 402 games (0.70 PPG) & 2 seasons with 60 or more points at 28, a couple months from 29 years of age.

Gomez - 390 points in 476 games (0.82 PPG) & 2 seasons with 70 or more points at 26 years old.


Briere's older, less productive, and already in his prime.

I don't think the other three are truly comparable to Briere.

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07-25-2006, 11:06 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I may not like the arbitration process, but it doesn't negatively impact the league. It has the same impact on every team, and merely promotes more movement. You personally disliking it does not make it a universal truth that it's having a negative impact on the league.

The fact is that the league's just as healthy as it would be without the arbitration process.
The cap went up this year and arbitration drove up salaries. End of story.

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07-25-2006, 11:16 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
The cap went up this year and arbitration drove up salaries. End of story.
No they didn't. Most large contracts were signed well before arbitration period.

You are absolutely incorrect here in every which way.

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07-25-2006, 11:24 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Havlat - 235 points in 298 games (0.79 PPG) & just turned 25 at the end of the season

Gaborik - 274 points in 360 games (0.76 PPG) & 3 seasons with 60+ points at the tender age of 24

Briere - 281 points in 402 games (0.70 PPG) & 2 seasons with 60 or more points at 28, a couple months from 29 years of age.

Gomez - 390 points in 476 games (0.82 PPG) & 2 seasons with 70 or more points at 26 years old.


Briere's older, less productive, and already in his prime.

I don't think the other three are truly comparable to Briere.

Well Gomez doesn't have injury issues and has a longer and better career than the other 3. He also is a playmaker rather than a goal scorer and perhaps is near his peak. Gaborik and Havlat are both expolsive and have had multiple years missing significant time to injury. Both Gaborik and Havlat have larger salaries than Brier got in arbitration but are somewhat comparable to him.

Gomez is not really that comparable to the other 3.

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07-26-2006, 07:52 PM
  #84
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With Malone awarded $2.75million over two years, and Bouwmeester awarded $4.35million over two years, you're absolutely right, toshiro: arbitration is killing hockey.


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07-26-2006, 08:16 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
With Malone awarded $2.75million over two years, and Bouwmeester awarded $4.35million over two years, you're absolutely right, toshiro: arbitration is killing hockey.

Malone is a superstar

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07-27-2006, 08:37 AM
  #86
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Very interesting topic.

Imo arbitration is a necessary evil because it does solve the issue of a player holding out. I agree with Mike8 on this one - the system is the way it is and it's up to the organization to draft well and keep the talent coming in order to compensate for some losses.

In Briere's case, I don't think he's worth 5 million. His career stats are certainly not that fantastic. I'm shocked that he got that much. Buffalo had PLENTY of time to get a long-term deal done and they decided to roll the dice. They lost. And like Mike8 said, they have LOTS more guys going to arbitration. Perhaps the arbitration is a bit flawed because the player seems to be rewarded a lot more than they should. That's just a personal opinion of mine though.

In the end, just be thankful that our GM didn't let one of our players go to arbitration. And if a guy is upset because he thinks he should be getting more then he can go and play for another team, it's that simple.

I do worry that the arbitration process will drive the price up on players but in the end it's up to the GM to sign those deals. The formula I would go with is to draft well and get some cheap years out of some good young players. Right now our core is well paid I'd say, but I'd rather have a bunch of guys making 4 million than 2 guys making 8.

I trust our GM.

Cap

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07-27-2006, 10:46 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Very interesting topic.

Imo arbitration is a necessary evil because it does solve the issue of a player holding out. I agree with Mike8 on this one - the system is the way it is and it's up to the organization to draft well and keep the talent coming in order to compensate for some losses.

In Briere's case, I don't think he's worth 5 million. His career stats are certainly not that fantastic. I'm shocked that he got that much. Buffalo had PLENTY of time to get a long-term deal done and they decided to roll the dice. They lost. And like Mike8 said, they have LOTS more guys going to arbitration. Perhaps the arbitration is a bit flawed because the player seems to be rewarded a lot more than they should. That's just a personal opinion of mine though.

In the end, just be thankful that our GM didn't let one of our players go to arbitration. And if a guy is upset because he thinks he should be getting more then he can go and play for another team, it's that simple.

I do worry that the arbitration process will drive the price up on players but in the end it's up to the GM to sign those deals. The formula I would go with is to draft well and get some cheap years out of some good young players. Right now our core is well paid I'd say, but I'd rather have a bunch of guys making 4 million than 2 guys making 8.

I trust our GM.

Cap
An upcoming crop of cheap young players will be required with arbitration driving the price up for vets.

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07-27-2006, 11:17 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Very interesting topic.

Imo arbitration is a necessary evil because it does solve the issue of a player holding out. I agree with Mike8 on this one - the system is the way it is and it's up to the organization to draft well and keep the talent coming in order to compensate for some losses.

In Briere's case, I don't think he's worth 5 million. His career stats are certainly not that fantastic. I'm shocked that he got that much. Buffalo had PLENTY of time to get a long-term deal done and they decided to roll the dice. They lost. And like Mike8 said, they have LOTS more guys going to arbitration. Perhaps the arbitration is a bit flawed because the player seems to be rewarded a lot more than they should. That's just a personal opinion of mine though.

In the end, just be thankful that our GM didn't let one of our players go to arbitration. And if a guy is upset because he thinks he should be getting more then he can go and play for another team, it's that simple.

I do worry that the arbitration process will drive the price up on players but in the end it's up to the GM to sign those deals. The formula I would go with is to draft well and get some cheap years out of some good young players. Right now our core is well paid I'd say, but I'd rather have a bunch of guys making 4 million than 2 guys making 8.

I trust our GM.

Cap
Well stated, especially the point about resolving contracts and possibly keep players from holding out. I wanna see the good to great players playing, not sitting out 1 or 2 or +++ months because they want to leverage more $$$. If not for arbitration, just how do teams/players resolve the seemingly unresolvable (obviously, negotiations didn't do the trick). Arbitration is a means to an end, but there are still choices to be made by the teams. Sometimes choices are tough, but they still have to be made. Buffalo with Briere and NJ with Gomez can accept or reject the deal and there will be consequences ... maybe we -- as fans -- don't like those consequences, but show me a choice that doesn't have an upside and a downside ... that's life. It's not perfect, but arbitration is not ruining the game either.

As for whether Briere is worth $5M ... well, that type of debate ... is player X really worth that kind of money ... has been raging for eons. What's new? Nothing, really.

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07-27-2006, 12:31 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by StorminZ View Post
Well stated, especially the point about resolving contracts and possibly keep players from holding out. I wanna see the good to great players playing, not sitting out 1 or 2 or +++ months because they want to leverage more $$$. If not for arbitration, just how do teams/players resolve the seemingly unresolvable (obviously, negotiations didn't do the trick). Arbitration is a means to an end, but there are still choices to be made by the teams. Sometimes choices are tough, but they still have to be made. Buffalo with Briere and NJ with Gomez can accept or reject the deal and there will be consequences ... maybe we -- as fans -- don't like those consequences, but show me a choice that doesn't have an upside and a downside ... that's life. It's not perfect, but arbitration is not ruining the game either.

As for whether Briere is worth $5M ... well, that type of debate ... is player X really worth that kind of money ... has been raging for eons. What's new? Nothing, really.
I would rather eliminate arbitration and let the player rot. It has its downside but hey life has its downside my toast was burnt this morning and hey life isnt always perfect and her what can you do about things sometimes

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07-27-2006, 02:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
I would rather eliminate arbitration and let the player rot. It has its downside but hey life has its downside my toast was burnt this morning and hey life isnt always perfect and her what can you do about things sometimes
I do side with the owners on most things, but I do believe arbitration is the best scenario for everybody involved. Like I said, it can be argued that players are getting more than they are "worth" but ultimately the team can walk away from that contract. And in this day and age, with players being UFA's at 27 or 28 it's really not that big a deal anymore I don't think. Sure it still stings to walk away from a great player but that's where a responsible GM is key.

Look at BG, he made a mistake with Theo and he corrected it last year. I give him props for unloading that salary and that headache.

Ryder could have gone to arbitration but he didn't and he signed with us for another 1 year deal. Is he kicking himself that he didn't go to arbitration? Maybe. Will he ultimately "stick" it to us and walk when he has the chance? Ya maybe. I don't care though, there are lots of players to go and get and Ryder isn't Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin.

Cap

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07-27-2006, 02:18 PM
  #91
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07-27-2006, 02:20 PM
  #92
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Is arbitration really the problem here?

If New Jersey (Gomez) and Buffallo (Briere) think that the rulings are outrageous...walk away. They can opt out of the contract, no problem and have lots of cap space to "better" spend their money, if they so choose.
The market will always dicate a players worth, and if there not worth it...don't pay them, as the market won't either.

Many teams would pay Briere 5 million, and let them..In 5 years I want a GM with cap room to sign one of the many superstars who are unrestricted at 26. The Boston's, New Jerseys, Chicagos and every other team trying to buy progress will all have old players locked up at high salaries, while the smarter clubs that didn't won't.


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07-27-2006, 02:20 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
I do side with the owners on most things, but I do believe arbitration is the best scenario for everybody involved. Like I said, it can be argued that players are getting more than they are "worth" but ultimately the team can walk away from that contract. And in this day and age, with players being UFA's at 27 or 28 it's really not that big a deal anymore I don't think. Sure it still stings to walk away from a great player but that's where a responsible GM is key.

Look at BG, he made a mistake with Theo and he corrected it last year. I give him props for unloading that salary and that headache.

Ryder could have gone to arbitration but he didn't and he signed with us for another 1 year deal. Is he kicking himself that he didn't go to arbitration? Maybe. Will he ultimately "stick" it to us and walk when he has the chance? Ya maybe. I don't care though, there are lots of players to go and get and Ryder isn't Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin.

Cap
Arnitration and free agency drive up costs for vets generally. Worth is not a useful concept as we arent talking laissez faire here.
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07-27-2006, 02:23 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
I would rather eliminate arbitration and let the player rot. It has its downside but hey life has its downside my toast was burnt this morning and hey life isnt always perfect and her what can you do about things sometimes
And how is leaving a player 'rot' good for the game? The players make this game.

The NHL needs a system that minimizes the undesirable effects of contract negotations, i.e., avoid players holding out and/or teams forcing RFA to sit out, and at the same time providing opportunity for teams to assemble/keep together a core of talent, especially young talent. Arbitration does not work in isolation ... it's the price of keeping a lid on unrestricted free agency. Remove arbitration and I suspect the age for UFA drops so as to allow 'the market' to set the price. Reduced UFA would make it more difficult for teams to keep their younger talent. You would see alot more movement and I doubt the debate of whether player A is worth $X will disappear ... it may even escalate with how some owners have behaved in years past. But has been stated many times, with today's salary cap, salaries -- on the whole -- will not be inflated ... sure, some guys will be awarded what seems to be a unreasonable amount, but that's a matter of opinion ... but that's the system at work.

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07-27-2006, 02:24 PM
  #95
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Arbitrators are simply compairing a player's production with someone who's already signed and give similar contracts.
Now, who gave Havlat 6M$? Gaborik 6.33M$? St-Louis 6M$? Savard 5M$?

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07-27-2006, 02:26 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Arbitrators are simply compairing a player's production with someone who's already signed and give similar contracts.
Now, who gave Havlat 6M$? Gaborik 6.33M$? St-Louis 6M$? Savard 5M$?
Exactly!

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07-27-2006, 02:55 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Arbitrators are simply compairing a player's production with someone who's already signed and give similar contracts.
Now, who gave Havlat 6M$? Gaborik 6.33M$? St-Louis 6M$? Savard 5M$?
Here here!

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07-27-2006, 03:04 PM
  #98
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Here here!

Cap
huh?

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07-28-2006, 08:45 AM
  #99
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huh?
It means I agree with you

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07-28-2006, 08:46 AM
  #100
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It means I agree with you

Cap
hehehe

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