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The Poile/Trotz Relationship

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:02 PM
  #26
triggrman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
How many of them actually made an impact? How many of them were taken in the top 10 of the draft?

Furthermore, why is this even remotely significant? It's not a race to get your prospects to the NHL. 3 years is a pretty standard development time frame to me.

I do agree Beck should get a taste of the NHL some time this year. He's not going to rejuvenate our offense though.
Why is it an issue? Because we build through the draft yet we don't draft quality forwards.

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
Debatable between us, Columbus, Florida and Phoenix.
if you get lumped with those teams... you might as well be last.

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Old
02-28-2013, 10:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
How about in the last dozen drafts we've not developed a single all-star on offense. Think about how many players we'ved drafted and not a single one is a true offensive talent. Radulov might have been, but his head wasn't right.

Poile sucks at drafting offensive players period.
Hartnell was, in fact, an All-Star.

Wilson is not done developing yet.

And if you are going to barbecue him for his lack of offense at least acknowledge that he is the absolute Grand Master Without Peer of drafting defensemen.

How many teams have been drafting for the last 12 years and havent had one player in the caliber of Weber or Suter, much less the stable of depth we have had for years.

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Old
03-01-2013, 05:56 AM
  #29
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He's incredible at drafting defensemen, and goalies as long as the goalie isn't taken in the first round anyway...

69 picks, used on forwards, the results should be better.

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Old
03-01-2013, 09:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
if you get lumped with those teams... you might as well be last.
The fact that a debate exists, though, kind of reduces the impact of "OMFG WE ARE WORST IN THE WHOLE LEAGUE EVAR".

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Old
03-01-2013, 10:10 AM
  #31
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Let me be clear. Poile is one of the best GMs in the game. I do not want him replaced, I want him to step up.

Same opinion on Trotz, I want him to adapt and overcome, just win.

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Old
03-01-2013, 07:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Why is it an issue? Because we build through the draft yet we don't draft quality forwards.
Sounds like a different topic

It's definitely no secret that Poile has trouble drafting high end forwards. And you know what, it's actually ok as long as he brings in scoring forwards via free agency and trade, which he has obviously failed to do as of late.

Some teams would love to be able to draft all star dmen and goalies. It's very rare that an organization can draft all 3 at once.

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Old
03-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #33
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A bit off topic, but it ties into the whole drafting thing. There was a thread on the main boards about each team's "all drafted" roster. So, if we kept everyone we picked and didn't get anyone from outside...

Radulov-Legwand-Hartnell
Wilson-Smith-Erat
Hornqvist-Spaling-Bourque
Upshall-Hall-Hendricks

Weber-Suter
Hamhuis-Josi
Klein-Ellis
HM: Klein, Franson

Rinne
Lindback

Predictably, mediocre at best at forward, great on D, and great in net. Sucks our two best forwards aren't Preds anymore. Compare this team to Philadelphia's.

harp-Giroux-Carter
JVR-Richards-Williams
Gagne-Couturier-Prospal
Rinaldo-Zubrus-Downie

Pitkanen-Woywitka
Sbisa-Bourdon
Seidenberg- Picard
Marshall

Hedberg
Boucher

Our defense is miles ahead of theirs, and so is our goaltending. Their forwards, however, but ours to absolutely shame. So let me ask, which team do you take? Personally, I would keep ours. Poile/Fenton/etc have their flaws at drafting, but it could be a lot worse. Carolina had 2.5 lines, 2 d pairings, and a backup goalie. That's it.

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:43 AM
  #34
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A good article by John Glennon on the Predators' forward drafting woes:

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...16/2072/sports

Quote:
“I’ve never once said when we get into a game that we necessarily have the best forwards or the best line in a game,” general manager David Poile said. “But I’ve always said that we have four lines that are better than their four lines, and the way we beat the other team with our forwards is we are relentless, we outwork them, we out-forecheck them and we score by committee.
Trotz:
Quote:
“We value the work ethic and the character a lot, and sometimes you give up a little bit on skill in some areas. But at the same time, it’s a gain in character.”

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #35
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So, there's not much freedom and it's not just a talent issue.

Pretty much what we've said forever.

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #36
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and the way we beat the other team with our forwards is we are relentless, we outwork them, we out-forecheck them and we score by committee...


true until this year

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
and the way we beat the other team with our forwards is we are relentless, we outwork them, we out-forecheck them and we score by committee...


true until this year
Agreed. Last 2 games we've done it.

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:14 PM
  #38
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That's a disheartening article to read, as it basically confirms that the perennial scoring woes are by design, rather than some drafting inadequacy.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:17 PM
  #39
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By design, but it is a strategy that can work. Look at the last 2 cup winners. Neither team had a scoring superstar. Boston didn't have anyone over 62 points. So the idea of putting 3 or 4 lines that can score a few goals vs 1 or 2 lines that can score a lot of goals is a valid one. That obviously isn't happening for us at the moment, but it is a valid strategy in building a team.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by jlsg View Post
By design, but it is a strategy that can work. Look at the last 2 cup winners. Neither team had a scoring superstar. Boston didn't have anyone over 62 points. So the idea of putting 3 or 4 lines that can score a few goals vs 1 or 2 lines that can score a lot of goals is a valid one. That obviously isn't happening for us at the moment, but it is a valid strategy in building a team.
LA had Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Brown...four players that are better than any one we have. Boston had Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic...three.

It's one thing to draft safely and draft for character, but you have to be able to do it VERY well and supplement it with the right free agents. Otherwise you end up with a top six comprised of a couple of second line forwards and several third line players.

In every playoff series we've lost, it's been because we couldn't generate enough offense. That formula works over an 82 game grind, but in a short series, you have to have people you can count on. Depending on streaky hot\cold offense will kill you when the entire team goes "cold," the way it did versus PHX.

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Old
03-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #41
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If I remember right, everyone not named the Kings went cold against Phoenix. And didn't that series have an overtime game or two.
Defense wins Cups. But that isn't going to fly around here so I'll just leave it at that.

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Old
03-11-2013, 07:39 PM
  #42
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I think we should narrow "the we do not have any decent fowards" to.....we do not have a legit top line Center. The ones we do possibly have if they would be given the chance (Wilson,Smith) Trotz is so darn afraid to give them the keys or play them at the natural position... We have decent RWs and LWs. The Center position is the glaring problem.
Don't ever get it wrong Defense does win championships but when the bounces do not go your way some nights you have to have some firepower.

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Old
03-11-2013, 08:01 PM
  #43
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The most restrictive forward position in Trotz system is the center.

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:46 PM
  #44
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Trotz putting SK back on the ice after his brain fart tells us all we need to know. How much longer do we have to put up with this crap!

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03-17-2013, 10:48 PM
  #45
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I wonder if anyone can give a rebuttal to the "sky is falling" arguement after tonight's display?

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Old
03-18-2013, 07:42 AM
  #46
triggrman
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Seriously? I get as mad at Trotz as anyone but no one really thinks it's time for him to go do they? I man, hasn't he earned a bit of a pass with some of the rosters we've had that managed to make the playoffs.

Even last season, talent wise we should not have beaten Detroit in round one.

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Old
03-18-2013, 08:16 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Trotz putting SK back on the ice after his brain fart tells us all we need to know. How much longer do we have to put up with this crap!
Well beings that we were already only dressing 11 forwards, he probably really needed to throw him out atleast another shift.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:54 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Seriously? I get as mad at Trotz as anyone but no one really thinks it's time for him to go do they? I man, hasn't he earned a bit of a pass with some of the rosters we've had that managed to make the playoffs.

Even last season, talent wise we should not have beaten Detroit in round one.
We had a better roster than Detroit. They had better top tier talent but a severe drop off after that. We were able to roll 4 lines last year.

Here's the thing, when Trotz is getting the most out of his roster, there is probably no one better out there but is he getting those results now? 10/11/12 and 74 have been an enigma all season long. Josi has filled in fine for Suter but no one has stepped up to fill Josi's role alongside Klein. He got Hali back on track with a trip to the minors but other than that, who is playing well? Josi, Wilson, Klein, Bourque, Weber and Rinne have been solid. Clune works hard and had been getting decent results and then guess what happens, his minutes have been severely cut for whatever reason. Remember he was playing with Smith and SK and they had some decent chemistry and they get broken up. This is what's maddening to me. Break up lines that create chances game in and game out but keep lines together that haven't been working for quite some time.

We used to go on the road and do some damage. The only damage that is done is that my poor eyes have to watch this crap. Two shorties in the last three games against us? Brain fart after brain fart. When is it going to end?

Here's the thing and it irks me beyond belief. Weber is an all world defenseman. We all agree on that. When he's playing within himself and with no show of outward emotion, he's a damn fine hockey player. When he gets rankled or upset, he turns into a freaking beast out there. When he gets mad, he gets downright mean and honestly, if I'm the other team, I try to keep him as calm as I can during the game. However, why is someone on our team not kicking him in the 'nads before a game or slapping his face or insulting him to get him into beast mode? Why is the coaching staff not imploring him to play like he did after he got sticked in the face in the Dallas game? He can learn to play like a beast and not go into the penalty box. Guys who play with an edge will take some penalties but we act as if he's going to be in the sin bin all night because he's mad. Did he take a penalty against Dallas after getting a high stick to his face? No. So why don't we want the beast on the ice for us night in and night out? Do you think the NJ coaches said to Stevens, Scottie, please calm it down, we don't want you playing physical because you might end up in the box. Do you think any team Pronger played for said Chris, you're a bad arse but you've got to tone it down. Absolutely not, they used that to their advantage. You knew not to go across the middle of the ice because Stevens would lay you out. You knew not to go to the front of the net because Pronger would knock you to your knees and then wail away on your back with his stick. Guys don't want to go to the corner with Weber when he's in that mode. They don't want to be anywhere near him. It also fires up the rest of the team. Heaven forbid we play with an edge and emotion. Let Weber be the beast and let him unleash the fury. I guarantee the efforts from everyone on the team would be a lot higher and these guys would go to battle with one another each and every night. We need a coach that can ignite that fire in Weber each and every night.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:05 PM
  #49
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I'm giving Poile a pass for this season. i think he naively believed what Suter told him, and it managed to screw our entire offseason.

however, if he blows the draft (picks another Mike Fisher when there's higher-end offensive talent on the board) and misses in free agency, I'll start counting the days until his retirement.

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:14 PM
  #50
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Honestly, that's where I think we miss Tootoo. I love Clune but he doesn't bring the energy like Tootoo did. Weber's not a big emotional guy by nature, he needs a spark. We need a way to find that spark now that Tootoo is gone.

I think Legwand and Fisher are getting blamed for poor play lately when they've not been playing that bad, again, lately, they both started the season really bad.

Right now Legwand would be on pace for a 18 goal season 19 assist season, that's not bad for him, it's typical. Lately he has improved with 5 points in his last 5 games.

Fisher though, usually scores more he's always been streaky though so there's hope.

SK, has been downright abysmal, right now he would be on pace for a 6 goal full season, despite being one of the leaders on the powerplay time most nights...

Erat is actually on pace to have his worst season as a pro.

Those 2 are supposed to be offensive leaders and are looked too to provide offense and it kills us for both to be having off years with the injuries to Wilson and Hornqvist.

Trotz is not going to open the game up for the centers, so don't look for Legwand and Fisher to do much more, especially with the defensive pairings in the chaos they're in now.

But we have to have our scoring line wingers producing. Right now, Clune is a bigger threat to score a goal than Erat or SK.

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