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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:19 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickside View Post
gillis needs to get on the phone to his buddy iain macintyre @ the vancouver sun and get a story run about how gillis isn't a proponent of making coaching changes in the middle of the season.

once the players and fans read it they'll stop trying to get AV fired and play out the season.
Or maybe they should just fire him now.

When a Sedin starts criticizing the system to the media, you know something is up. They don't want him here anymore. It's time for MG to suck up his pride and fire AV. He should have been gone after the playoffs. He has had plenty of time to get this team back on track and all he does is stand there and chew his gum, rip on prospects and throw scrubs on the 2nd line. Absolutely done with this clown.

Some people say that it is too late to making a coaching switch this season, but I see no reason why it can't be done. Learning a new system in a short amount of time might give this team a good challenge and will stimulate their minds. It will also make them keep the game more simple. Keeping AV any longer is just asking for this team to tune him out even more. The stuff AV is preaching isn't do any good so I'd rather the players start practicing a new system than continue to see poor results with AV. Since I think a lot of their uninspired play has to do with AV being coach, I think we could see a more hungry team emerge once he's out of here. No point in keeping AV because the other teams have already figured out this team's system and we're just wasting this season if we keep him. I'd rather fire av and get this team going again. I still believe in this team.

Sedin's comments will go a long way. MG has to be listening to that and knows what it means.


Last edited by luongo321: 03-11-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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Old
03-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
I agree with this as well. IMO, there are two scenarios in which AV (and possibly Gillis) is fired:

1) We miss the playoffs.
2) Another early exit in the playoffs.

Anything short of those, and he sticks around, from where I sit.
I agree, and since I fully expect option 2 will happen I don't see AV being here for the draft. The good news is, Jon Cooper's contract is up in June and he should be available, and if he isn't then that likely means Guy Boucher is available. There should be some interesting options available this offseason that hasn't really existed for a few years.

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03-11-2013, 02:24 PM
  #178
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I think if we fall out of a playoff spot in the next couple of games, Aquillini might force Gillis's hand on AV.
Seriously, you have to think they're planning on the March 16th (Millionaires jerseys) night being a big, big deal (those jerseys are money printing machines). If they ride a losing streak into that game and then **** down their legs, ownership will NOT be happy.

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03-11-2013, 02:28 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I doubt it. I think Aquilini and Gillis are pretty tight overall. Just how Pegula forced the firing of Ruff, Aquilini might force the firing of AV.
In the end, it's all about the dollars (sure winning strokes their ego - but when you there's even talk of possible coaching changes then you know Gillis' doesn't even have that in his corner). Missing the playoffs means a fair amount of money lost for the owner (including the likelihood of increasing ticket prices next season as well).

I think last season's early exit (and disappointing level of play for most of the 2nd half the season - except for the goalies) removed any slack they might've been given. This hasn't been just a short-term losing streak.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:29 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by CanuckCity View Post
Line-Juggling

As much as i loved it before it has become a major downfall. The only line that stays the same for more than one game is sedins and burr. How are players supposed to develop chemistry this way? We have an elite team in terms of our players but we have zero chemistry.

Imo lines should be given at least 2-3 games (depending on performance) before being changed. On that note i think the sedins need a new partner; i love burr and they have proven success but that line needs a new look. Good teams know how to shut them down and they have been on the decline production wise. Kassian, Booth, Kes would be my top 3 to take that position.

I think the players need to be broken down individually based on their strengths (and weaknesses). From this develop lines that have the potential to gel and produce.

For ex.

kesler: elite shot, strength, and speed. lacks creativity and vision
booth: elite speed, good strength, lacks a shot and finish to a degree
Raymond: elite speed, great shot, vision, and creativity but lacks size and can be soft on the puck

etc etc and use this to develop the lines. Then give them 5 or so games to develop some effin chemistry
David Booth had these comments ( I took them from Crows in the PGT, I could not find a quote for the life of me)

"I was thinking about LA last year and they went through a stretch where they werenít playing too well. They didnít even know if they were making the playoffs. Then, they get on a roll, guys start playing and then they have an identity. I think we have to get an identity.

"Each line needs to get a different role and we all need to embrace those roles."

I think Booth is talking some what about line juggling. If not directly, then indirectly.

I would also like to note that last night we played like absolute ****, system or not, nothing was going our way.

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03-11-2013, 02:37 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by The Classless One View Post
What exactly is an "early exit"?
Is it 1st or 2nd round?
First would be a no-brainer firing.

Second round depends on the opponent and the manner in which the team would lose, but I would lean towards that involving a firing as well.

Expectations from ownership and the fans are sky high. The team has the skill, but has not been exhibiting the will for some time - that's an issue that is growing as time goes on.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:38 PM
  #182
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The funny thing is, the major gripe is that he doesn't motivate the players. I think not wanting to do pushups for mistakes like a bunch of peewees would motivate them not to screw up, no?
I don't think the Swedish players understand this mentality..and it certainly tunes them out.

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03-11-2013, 02:39 PM
  #183
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Fire av!



Honestly why are we discussing the same crap 3-4 years running. It's really time for this guy to go.

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03-11-2013, 02:40 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
It wouldn't motivate me, would just make me think the coach is a lazy POS that can't come up with anything better. What's more ridiculous is the situation that he's doing this in ó he has the worst possible PP setup as the players are completely stationary and he's using players like Schroder on the point. Maybe he should be doing the push-ups with them because he's doing a ****tier job than they are?

Add to that the comments by Daniel (or Henrik?) and Booth about the way they're being asked to play and it doesn't sound to me like they're satisfied with what he's asking of them.
Humble pie for me to say this but Brown and AV are the ones should be doing pushups.

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03-11-2013, 02:49 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
It wouldn't motivate me, would just make me think the coach is a lazy POS that can't come up with anything better. What's more ridiculous is the situation that he's doing this in — he has the worst possible PP setup as the players are completely stationary and he's using players like Schroder on the point. Maybe he should be doing the push-ups with them because he's doing a ****tier job than they are?

Add to that the comments by Daniel (or Henrik?) and Booth about the way they're being asked to play and it doesn't sound to me like they're satisfied with what he's asking of them.
You could think that all you want, but not executing even in practice now generates punishment, so all that complained about his inability to motivate (which I think is an absolute joke that these guys need motivation) are getting to see some motivation.

The PP is only going to go as far as the Twins take them, and even they have limitations.

A true RH point shot (like when Kesler wasn't injured) the PP looked great. Seems to me that is a personnel issue.

But we're not allowed to knock the Twins or Edler around here without getting in trouble, but the coach and the GM are fair game?

Edler has stunk since January last year...

I'm all for punishing these guys with less ice-time, it just won't happen.

Also, I'm a huge advocate for splitting up the Twins and Burr. Yes its the only one that is going, so why not split it up and improve somewhere else.

The twins are going to get points with any player on the team on their line, but Burrows can probably get other guys going.

This PP being all AV's fault is a crutch, they don't have a RH shot on the entire unit...it's messed. We already know what they're going to do, I'm not sure what else would work....you're saying it's because the coach is preaching them to stand still? I disagree, I just think the team is playing like junk, and are showing no urgency or effort (outside Booth).

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03-11-2013, 03:07 PM
  #186
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A topic I found on CDC from last year concerning our team strategy:

Quote:
I have heard many times that we follow the Detroit's puck possession style and we generate offense from keeping the other team from gaining control of the puck. I have also heard that we are a solid transition team that makes teams pay when they turn the puck over (like Phoenix). I personally believe that we are a solid transition team but I want to know what you think. Here's my reasoning:

I believe that a lot of people think puck possession means maintaining control in the offensive zone (ie the cycle). To me the definition of puck possession is maintaining control in all three zones as often as possible. In my opinion the most important part of keeping the puck controlled throughout the game starts with the breakout. I believe that our breakout has major issues with players not being on the same page. Some lines like to offer puck support some of the time, others not at all and the defence are left playing a guessing game.

When we gain control of the puck in our zone, our forwards have a tendency to blow the zone, giving our defenceman a very risky choice: dump the puck to the neutral zone, or try to connect a long pass. These options are dangerous because the other team has the opportunity to gain possession. IMO this is why Hamhuis and Bieksa struggled down the stretch and why Ballard has more often than not rode the pine: they are defence who need puck support so they can pass to a target or carry the puck with speed. Detroit's defenceman are not hung out to dry like the Canuck's defence and are more likely to keep possession because they have more options to use when breaking the puck out of their zone. When most defenceman are pressured or tired, they are going to ice the puck unless they have outlets!

When puck-possession squads run into teams that utilize defensive strategies like the trap, they change their breakout accordingly. For example: I have seen two answers to the trap: overload one side of the ice and create open space in the neutral zone or force the puck to the red-line to dump and chase. Another difference between us and Detroit: we often dump the puck before reaching the neutral zone, Detroit dumps it in from the red-line (FTR I know every team ices the puck, but most times it's an error on a player's behalf and not a symptom of strategy). If one of our zone clearing attempts turns into an icing, well we have some of the best centers in the league (coincedence - I think not). Our centerman while often on the winning side, aren't infallible and will lose at least one out of every three draws. Again not the actions of a team who likes to maintain control of the puck.

The most notable sign of our non-puck possessiveness is when we take the lead in a game. Even if it is in the first period it seems that we go into trap mode and defend a one goal lead for forty minutes. We do nothing but dump the puck and plug the neutral zone. We differ from Detroit on this strategem as well. While there is no doubt they are more aware of their defensive responsibilities when ahead, they still do not offer up possession without a battle (please keep in mind that I am referring to Detroit's strategy and not their results).

IMO we are not a puck possession team, we are a transition team who relies on special teams. I would prefer we be a puck possession squad because I believe that the transition game can be beaten by a select few teams that have exceptional puck moving skills and an aggressive forecheck (who happen to be the teams we tend to meet in the post-season). AV's strategy wins us a lot of games but let's not call his strategy something it is not.
http://forum.canucks.com/topic/33002...#entry10658966

I look at the differences in AV's strategy (none) compared to the difference in roster from last year. We no longer have solid centers who consistently win faceoffs and our special teams have been stagnant. Combine these factors with AV's strategy outlined above and we have no chance. I also kind of find it funny that he and Gillis call our team a puck possession team when we clearly aren't. Even the poll results from this topic suggests otherwise.

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03-11-2013, 03:37 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
I think last season's early exit (and disappointing level of play for most of the 2nd half the season - except for the goalies) removed any slack they might've been given. This hasn't been just a short-term losing streak.
In the second half of last season, the Canucks were 26-9-6, which was better than their record in the first half, where they were 25-13-3.

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03-11-2013, 03:40 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
In the second half of last season, the Canucks were 26-9-6, which was better than their record in the first half, where they were 25-13-3.
You forgot to highlight the key part of my post - "except for the goalies". They bailed us out (Schneider AND Luongo) most nights. Even goaltending THIS season for a while bailed us out.

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03-11-2013, 03:42 PM
  #189
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As I mentioned in another thread, firing AV likely also necessitates firing the entire coaching staff given how workloads are broken up, and that I don't think they have an assistant that is going to be able to step into a head coaching role. That makes it an off season move. Especially in a shortened season. In an 82 game season i can see the trigger maybe being pulled but not now.

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03-11-2013, 03:43 PM
  #190
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As I mentioned in another thread, firing AV likely also necessitates firing the entire coaching staff given how workloads are broken up, and that I don't think they have an assistant that is going to be able to step into a head coaching role. That makes it an off season move. Especially in a shortened season. In an 82 game season i can see the trigger maybe being pulled but not now.
Yep. Then you have to get interviews done to hire your next guy which takes a while. There's just no way they do it until our season is done.

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03-11-2013, 03:44 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
As I mentioned in another thread, firing AV likely also necessitates firing the entire coaching staff given how workloads are broken up, and that I don't think they have an assistant that is going to be able to step into a head coaching role. That makes it an off season move. Especially in a shortened season. In an 82 game season i can see the trigger maybe being pulled but not now.
Given how the blueline has looked and the power play (for a while now) - I'd actually rank them lower in term of job effectiveness than AV.

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03-11-2013, 03:55 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Yep. Then you have to get interviews done to hire your next guy which takes a while. There's just no way they do it until our season is done.
If they did do it, it would have happened already I think. They might have done it 5 games in, but even then that would have been dumb because besides the Hawks, who fires a coach 5 games into a season?

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03-11-2013, 03:57 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
You forgot to highlight the key part of my post - "except for the goalies". They bailed us out (Schneider AND Luongo) most nights. Even goaltending THIS season for a while bailed us out.
During the final 41 games of last season, the Canucks scored 2.73 goals per game (even as Daniel Sedin missed time due to injury) and allowed 2.41. While the former is a decently high number by the standards of today's very low-scoring NHL, the latter isn't particularly good. Furthermore, in nearly half of those games, 19 out of 41, they allowed 3 or more goals per game.

No, the Canucks did not ride the strength of their goalies over the second half of last season. They received good goaltending, yes, but they were a good team overall. Also, in the original posted I quoted, you claimed that their current troubles were not "just a short-term losing streak," when in fact they did not find wins few and far between during the second half of last season.

I find it interesting how a rough patch of 7 bad games can cause such memory problems. Then again, Vancouver is pretty infamous for that kind of attitude.

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03-11-2013, 04:00 PM
  #194
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Given how the blueline has looked and the power play (for a while now) - I'd actually rank them lower in term of job effectiveness than AV.
Yep. Especially when we heard coming into the season how they were going to have a different looking PP etc. They don't. Take Burros off the PP for goodness sakes. Love the guy 5-on-5 and on the PK but on the PP he is just lost. He doesn't have the patience or passing game to help develop a good opportunity and he simply doesn't have the net presence to be effective. Put Kassian on the first PP unit until kesler is back. And honestly, put Sestito on the second unit and just look to blast from the point for the 35 seconds the second unit gets (oh I know a horrible solution for the second unit but Higgins, Hansen and Raymond also don't have the patience or net presence). When kesler comes back put Kassian in the second unit and Sestito back on the bench.

The blueline has always had one or two guys playing well below usual levels. Hamhuis to start the year. Edler the past 15 games. Garrison was expected to be a slow start and I think he's picked his play up. ballard after a tremendous start DID slow down. Not to the point barker or Alberts should be playing before him but his play dropped. Tanev has likely been the most consistent blueliner and really he shouldn't be counted on for as much as he has been.

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03-11-2013, 04:01 PM
  #195
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Yup, Vigneault will be here until the end of the season for sure. It's pretty sad because it's just another wasted opportunity (even if we acquire help at the trade deadline). I have no faith in him during the playoffs. Heck, he can't even separate his head from his ass in the regular season.

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03-11-2013, 04:01 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
During the final 41 games of last season, the Canucks scored 2.73 goals per game and allowed 2.41. While the former is a decently high number by the standards of today's very low-scoring NHL, the latter isn't particularly good. Furthermore, in nearly half of those games, 19 out of 41, they allowed 3 or more goals per game.

No, the Canucks did not ride the strength of their goalies over the second half of last season. They received good goaltending, yes, but they were a good team overall. Also, in the original posted I quoted, you claimed that their current troubles were not "just a short-term losing streak," when in fact they did not find wins few and far between during the second half of last season.

I find it interesting how a rough patch of 8 bad games can cause such memory problems. Then again, Vancouver is pretty infamous for that kind of attitude.
One can win games and be performing badly (see our record this season before this losing streak). Look at the final year of Crawford here; team was coasting (winning by virtue of talent alone - lousy work ethic) until injuries happened and the wheels fell off.

Team defense was horrible which does reflect in the GAA you're quoting. Look at the save percentage which tells you more about how well the goaltending was (it's not perfect but it's far more accurate than GAA in assessing goalies). Case in point, Edler - he put up the points but was medicore defensively.

But that's just my opinion.


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03-11-2013, 04:22 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
A topic I found on CDC from last year concerning our team strategy:



http://forum.canucks.com/topic/33002...#entry10658966

I look at the differences in AV's strategy (none) compared to the difference in roster from last year. We no longer have solid centers who consistently win faceoffs and our special teams have been stagnant. Combine these factors with AV's strategy outlined above and we have no chance. I also kind of find it funny that he and Gillis call our team a puck possession team when we clearly aren't. Even the poll results from this topic suggests otherwise.
Very interesting read. Glad you posted that. Bottom line is we don't have the players that fit the system we are trying to play anymore. The loss of erhoff and malhotra was huge. Losing Salo didnt help either. The real problem is that we seem unable to adapt and its causing guys to either play positions they're not comfortable in or take on roles too great for their own good. Case in point: Edler. He's expected to be a shutdown dman and a pp QB. In reality he's a very good TWD that has a great outlet pass and a big shot. However he shouldn't be expected to skate the puck in the zone and control the pp. Not to mention he gets moved between the left and right side every game. IMO his best years were with erhoff here and i think if we acquired lubo or streit it would do wonders for him and the rest of the d core.

OR, knowing that the aforementioned trade is very unlikely, why don't we put ballard with him. Was ballard not brought in to be the smooth-skating puck mover? He's literally been forced to become a shutdown guy even though he's our most creative dman imo.

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03-11-2013, 04:23 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
During the final 41 games of last season, the Canucks scored 2.73 goals per game (even as Daniel Sedin missed time due to injury) and allowed 2.41. While the former is a decently high number by the standards of today's very low-scoring NHL, the latter isn't particularly good. Furthermore, in nearly half of those games, 19 out of 41, they allowed 3 or more goals per game.

No, the Canucks did not ride the strength of their goalies over the second half of last season. They received good goaltending, yes, but they were a good team overall. Also, in the original posted I quoted, you claimed that their current troubles were not "just a short-term losing streak," when in fact they did not find wins few and far between during the second half of last season.

I find it interesting how a rough patch of 7 bad games can cause such memory problems. Then again, Vancouver is pretty infamous for that kind of attitude.
Odd then that down the stretch last year there was much talk both here and in the media about the Canucks looking less than stellar and whether or not they could flip the switch come playoff time.

Coaches always talk about process being as important as results. The process hasn't been nearly good enough since the midpoint of last season, and we're now seeing the results catch up.

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03-11-2013, 04:27 PM
  #199
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I too think their struggles to end last season have been a little overstated. To me, it was mostly contained to their special teams and in some ways it's similar this year.

In the first 42 games last season (up to and including the Bruins game) the team had a +35 goal differential and in the 40 remaining games they put up only a +15 goal differential. So on the surface that seems like a huge drop off. But if you break it down into ES and special teams it's clear where the problem lied:


First 42: +16 at ES and +19 on special teams

Last 40: +17 at ES and -3 on special teams


This is also reflected in their 5 on 5 possession numbers. In terms of shot differential, Fenwick, Corsi, and what have you they were consistently one of the best teams in the league from start to finish last season. Even if you look only at post trade deadline, they were one of the best 5 on 5 teams in the league but their special teams were terrible.


Their record was certainly inflated due to a ton of SO wins and they really didn't play well enough to deserve the President's Trophy, but they definitely weren't terrible or slumping unless your only point of reference is their 10-11 season which was one of the most all around dominant in the last 30 years.

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03-11-2013, 04:28 PM
  #200
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His time has come to be fired.

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