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The Canucks are in a tailspin

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:19 PM
  #251
monster_bertuzzi
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Boy, we have some problems. There is no regular scoring threat after the Sedins, that is way to easy to defend against if you're the opposing team this feels like the Nonis era again. Keeping both goalies has proven to be a disaster, you don't take up 10 million in cap space between two goalies, you just don't and expect to get away with it.

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:28 PM
  #252
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I think Kesler being out completely changes the dynamic of this team as it would for most. I mean some teams like Boston have a plethora of talented centers that could slide over, but for the Canucks, not having him in the lineup essentially reduces them to a one line team. Bring him back in and everything looks different - 2nd line becomes a two way threat again, Sedins will be able to get some better matchups, and there will be less pressure on the bottom 6 to produce. Looks like they could use an upgrade at 3C as well but that's less pressing.

It does seem like they've lost some offensive tools in the past couple years - Ehrhoff, Hodgson, Grabner. I understand why those players were moved but I think the lack of offensive depth is hurting them.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:04 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouCantYandleThis View Post
You say you don't watch our team at all, and ask over-simplified questions, yet you somehow have enough knowledge of our roster and personnel to conjure up this gem.
Uh... sorry? I said I can only watch when they play the Kings, which isn't often. I wasn't trying to troll, but I do have the capability to form some semblance of my own opinion based on limited viewings.

On a side note, multi-quote wasn't working for me for some reason (it directly lead me to the quote screen, so I just copied and pasted a couple responses for this post), but I wanted to thank the fans who stood up for me and had the kind words despite my ignorance. Thanks for recognizing I wasn't trying to troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
If you feel like it, there's some good posts in our 'Fire AV' threads if you go through them. I'm too lazy to quote (sorry!).

But to quickly highlight the main issues (without really elaborating on them): breakouts, down low cycle, and personnel misuse. Oh yeah, our special teams suck. You could rah-rah this team all you want but they're not getting anywhere playing this type of hockey.

That's not to say AV is a bad coach, he's actually very good in a lot of ways, but he has his weaknesses and those are starting to pile up. You would expect some major adjustments since this team's system got picked apart by every team in the league. There haven't been many. We went from hitting guys in stride with our long pass, to juggling it around between the D and then having the high-man tip and charge. The team has no transition game right now.
Thanks for the info. I might go check it out, though usually the "Fire XXX" threads in any forum are more for raw entertainment, since they're more emotional, which is why I was hoping to get more direct information from cooler headed fans here

Regarding your main issues, that seems to be quite a bit, on top of the other poster who also said it's a defensive system, and another who said that he lets the Sedins run their game and the other players don't know what's going on. I'll check out the Canucks forum for more info, but from your (and other fans in this thread) opinion, what is he doing right, since you said he's actually very good in a lot of ways?

Either way, at first glance, it sounds like it's mostly just a personality issue. When players don't know how to execute, the onus is on the coach to communicate how to do it correctly, from breakouts to down low play. It sounds like they could use a new voice who will communicate what he wants and could hold players accountable for not executing correctly. Is that a good summary of what you think the Canucks need from whomever is coaching?

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:07 PM
  #254
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I don't get the label with Hodgson as a terrible defensive player. Who really cares right now? He's always been a 2-way guy in the Jr. level, but his talent is there to score and create chances offensively. You don't see the Sedins PKing, nor should you. Hodgson is still getting some regular PK time and isn't heavily sheltered in terms of zone starts. There could absolutely be a place in the Canucks lineup for Hodgson. I feel that they should've move Schroeder for Kassian instead.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #255
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We have no secondary scoring, our special teams suck, our defence is horribly overrated and our goaltending has been average. I won't be surprised if we're out of a playoff position in a week.

EDIT: The worst part is that we have no promising up-and-coming prospects or anything. So if this team tanks and misses the playoffs, we're screwed.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Thanks for the info. I might go check it out, though usually the "Fire XXX" threads in any forum are more for raw entertainment, since they're more emotional, which is why I was hoping to get more direct information from cooler headed fans here

Regarding your main issues, that seems to be quite a bit, on top of the other poster who also said it's a defensive system, and another who said that he lets the Sedins run their game and the other players don't know what's going on. I'll check out the Canucks forum for more info, but from your (and other fans in this thread) opinion, what is he doing right, since you said he's actually very good in a lot of ways?

Either way, at first glance, it sounds like it's mostly just a personality issue. When players don't know how to execute, the onus is on the coach to communicate how to do it correctly, from breakouts to down low play. It sounds like they could use a new voice who will communicate what he wants and could hold players accountable for not executing correctly. Is that a good summary of what you think the Canucks need from whomever is coaching?
I think it's a combination. I would say they're trying to do what he wants but to me AV is living in the past. That long pass hasn't been there in a year now and they're still forcing it. You look at other puck possession teams and they've moved on to a more of a 4- or 5-man unit breakout to facilitate puck support throughout transition. AV, for his adjustment, now has this hybrid of trying to get the centre in deep for puck support but he still has his D looking for that long pass. So all that happens is that we have two guys standing around in the neutral zone, the centre in the defensive zone and when the puck gets transitioned to the O-zone everyone is playing catch-up, especially the centres.

As for his strengths, I think he's an excellent big picture coach but struggles with adjustments. He can create a good system over a long period of time and get a team to buy in, but he takes a long time to make adjustments when other teams counter him. He's great at getting the most out of grinder types but doesn't necessarily know how to work with skilled players. He's also probably made to look worse than he is by his assistants.

AV would probably do well with a team built around him (or a team of clones designed to his specs) but this isn't the NBA, you can't rebuild your full team in one off-season. He's not a coach that will identify strengths of players and be able to utilize them. He's really, really poor at that.

(The whole system can also be accused of being overly complicated. AV has come up with a few other breakouts this season but they're all so overly complicated that we maybe execute them successfully once every couple of games.)

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:24 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I don't get the label with Hodgson as a terrible defensive player. Who really cares right now? He's always been a 2-way guy in the Jr. level, but his talent is there to score and create chances offensively. You don't see the Sedins PKing, nor should you. Hodgson is still getting some regular PK time and isn't heavily sheltered in terms of zone starts. There could absolutely be a place in the Canucks lineup for Hodgson. I feel that they should've move Schroeder for Kassian instead.
there are a few things about this,

-we don't have the defensive centre to shelter two offensive lines
-Hodgson wanted out,
-Hodgson would of greatly helped us, of course, but there are more issues with this team that would not have been solved by Cody
-Kassian is worth way more than Schroeder at the time and still does
-we didn't foresee further injury troubles for Kesler and Mqlhotra never coming back

* I think we could of developed his defensive game and made him a good second line offensive centre that is responsible defensively, but it would of been a process imo

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:27 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavstar View Post
We have no secondary scoring, our special teams suck, our defence is horribly overrated and our goaltending has been average. I won't be surprised if we're out of a playoff position in a week.

EDIT: The worst part is that we have no promising up-and-coming prospects or anything. So if this team tanks and misses the playoffs, we're screwed.
we do have secondary scoring, Raymond, Higgins and Hamsen have provided, we just don't have enough imo to make up for the absense of Kesler. Also the lack of production of Booth really hurts because Ryan is out. If we are to make up for Kesler being out, Booth and Kassian will have to step up their games imo (would of said Schroeder as well, but he got sent down)

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:44 PM
  #259
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No depth down the middle
Defence not played to expectations
Goaltending duo needs to be one or the other as #1

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:45 PM
  #260
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Seems like they really need to trade a goalie for some help

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:55 PM
  #261
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I thought people said they were in a tailspin last year? Look I don't like it and I hope I am wrong, but the Canucks are still most likely going to be the division champions. Though they won't win it going away like they have been the last handful of seasons.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #262
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I agree with that poster earlier who said they over-reacted and tried to fix something that wasn't broken.

I live in B.C and the organization/fans just didn't take losing to the Bruins well. The Canucks were dominant team that year built on skill. After the loss to the Bruins they decided they needed to get bigger/tougher at the expense of that skill.

Losing guys like Hodgson, Samuelsson and Ehrhoff really hurt. Malhotra was also a key player for them.

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Old
03-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #263
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Hindsight is 20/20 but maybe Gillis shouldn't have expected to get an all star return for Luongo given their goalie situation and the contract that the other team would have to take on. If the team continues to flounder, that puts Gillis in a position of weakness to trade and it would seem like one way or another, Canucks aren't going into next season with the Schneider/Luongo tandem. That is way too much money to have tied up in your goaltending when the cap is going down.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:00 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Segnasty19 View Post
Seems like they really need to trade a goalie for some help
The problem is who is needs a goalie right now and has tweener 2nd/3rd line center(+ most likely more) they can move

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03-11-2013, 02:07 PM
  #265
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I am surprised by the lack of hate and trolling in here. Maybe the entire world doesn't hate the Canucks after all...

I think as long as the Canucks make the playoffs, and in my opinion this goes for every team, they are fine.

We have seen year in and year out that any team can win in the playoffs, regardless of regular season success.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #266
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It's just a slump. It happens. Luckily for them they're still technically tied with MIN, and the rest of the division is still 4+ points back. I think VAN missing the playoffs is unlikely and they will make a few adjustments and get back into it.

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:19 PM
  #267
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Kesler makes the lineup work. When he's out, it suffers.

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03-11-2013, 02:21 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaney View Post
I am surprised by the lack of hate and trolling in here. Maybe the entire world doesn't hate the Canucks after all...

I think as long as the Canucks make the playoffs, and in my opinion this goes for every team, they are fine.

We have seen year in and year out that any team can win in the playoffs, regardless of regular season success.
Because most people know in 5 games Canucks will be back to good and they will be eating a healthy serving of crow

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Old
03-11-2013, 02:43 PM
  #269
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as the reported head of the ANTI-Faction here at HF--here is my observation that is slightly amusing

The biggest threat to the Canucks is the Wild keep playing well and take first place his the division, that means the nucks come in on pts.

The nucks will get into the playoffs this year--the problem is next year

here is the new conference with current pts

ducks- 39
Kings- 28
Sharks- 28
Nucks-28
Phoenix- 27
Oilers-23
flames- 22

What should scare canuck fans is that conference and the days of them knowing they will be in the playoffs because the other 4 teams in division are not that good--Wild changed things up. Next year the Canucks will battle 3 good teams for the playoff spots and hope Phoenix, Calgary and Edmonton just suck again. But I think the only safe bet is that Calgary will be tweeking their team and wont be a threat (sorry flames fans)--the two wild card will be Phoenix still winning against all odds and kids on the oilers suddenly waking up and becoming world killers

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03-11-2013, 02:56 PM
  #270
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I think this is more of a personal issue then a coaching issue. Coach can only do so much with what he has.

Gillis really under estimated some players that he let go.

As for Malhotra. I completely blame Gillis for not having a plan in place. They had Manny on the team all of last year. Manny played like **** last year and was basically a FO specialist. It is horrible judgement to watch Manny play all of last season and not have some sort of back up plan in place.

Kesler, same thing. He knew Kesler was out for at least the first half of the season. Kesler was coming off of major surgery for the second year in a row.

At the end of last season he had two huge question marks regarding a very important position, Centre. Gillis failed to address that. He had an asset in a goaltender and failed to move that asset to address an area that was a huge question mark. Total failure on his part. It is really biting Vancouver in the ass right now. If he had done a good job and gotten a real centre, worst case scenario would be that Vancouver would have to move Kesler to wing. Kesler could still bring his hustle and defensive presence plus take draws on his strong side.

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:38 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
we do have secondary scoring, Raymond, Higgins and Hamsen have provided, we just don't have enough imo to make up for the absense of Kesler. Also the lack of production of Booth really hurts because Ryan is out. If we are to make up for Kesler being out, Booth and Kassian will have to step up their games imo (would of said Schroeder as well, but he got sent down)
10-12 points in 24 games isn't secondary scoring.

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Because most people know in 5 games Canucks will be back to good and they will be eating a healthy serving of crow
I think everyone except for Canucks fans have this thought.

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
as the reported head of the ANTI-Faction here at HF--here is my observation that is slightly amusing

The biggest threat to the Canucks is the Wild keep playing well and take first place his the division, that means the nucks come in on pts.

The nucks will get into the playoffs this year--the problem is next year

here is the new conference with current pts

ducks- 39
Kings- 28
Sharks- 28
Nucks-28
Phoenix- 27
Oilers-23
flames- 22

What should scare canuck fans is that conference and the days of them knowing they will be in the playoffs because the other 4 teams in division are not that good--Wild changed things up. Next year the Canucks will battle 3 good teams for the playoff spots and hope Phoenix, Calgary and Edmonton just suck again. But I think the only safe bet is that Calgary will be tweeking their team and wont be a threat (sorry flames fans)--the two wild card will be Phoenix still winning against all odds and kids on the oilers suddenly waking up and becoming world killers
This is a good thing. The Canucks have had a free ride for the past 5 years. More competition never hurts.

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:44 PM
  #274
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This whole losing streak started when Kesler came back. Kesler will never come near that 40 goal season again. His body is falling apart more and more every season and the guy isn't even 30 yet.
Grabner has more talent on one finger then Kesler. Mike Gillis, get out of here

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Old
03-11-2013, 03:47 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by mavstar View Post
10-12 points in 24 games isn't secondary scoring.
yes it is, it is not enough, but it's still there. if booth an Kassian were also providing the same as Raymond and Hansen we would have solid secondary scoring

going ppg is not necessary to be considered, getting 40-50 or so points from secondary guys isn't that bad

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