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Jones, MacKinnon or Drouin?

View Poll Results: pick
Jones 32 53.33%
MacKinnon 8 13.33%
Drouin 16 26.67%
other 4 6.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-09-2013, 07:24 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
Larsson in the playoffs was excellent. Bouwmeester has been pretty excellent. Healthy, productive. EJ has been very good, was also hampered with a crappy coach for a while in STL. JJ has his flashes, it really depends on what you're expecting of him.
Larson has been average this year. What Bouwmeester have you watched? He's been anything but excellent the past three years.

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03-09-2013, 08:02 PM
  #77
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Larson has been average this year. What Bouwmeester have you watched? He's been anything but excellent the past three years.
While I agree with your drafting forwards argument, you're wrong about Bouwmeester. He's been solid the last two seasons.

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03-09-2013, 08:06 PM
  #78
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Why is this turning into a "I would've picked this guy" thread? It's easy to say who you would've picked now but i'm sure most of you would've made the same mistakes some teams made.
EJ, JJ, Bouwmeester, Schenn all would be great on our blueline right now, I don't think anybody would be complaining if we had any of them.

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03-09-2013, 08:07 PM
  #79
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While I agree with your drafting forwards argument, you're wrong about Bouwmeester. He's been solid the last two seasons.
Disagree, solid is not excellent. Calgary as a team has been poor and Bouwmeester has been a big part of it. They traded for him with the mentality that he'd be a #1 defenseman and I think he's been playing more like a #2 (if that). His offensive zone play and contribution has been poor and his point totals have dropped significantly as a result the past three years.

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03-09-2013, 08:08 PM
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Why is this turning into a "I would've picked this guy" thread? It's easy to say who you would've picked now but i'm sure most of you would've made the same mistakes some teams made.
EJ, JJ, Bouwmeester, Schenn all would be great on our blueline right now, I don't think anybody would be complaining if we had any of them.
I would be complaining if Schenn were on our blueline right now. He's more physical than Brewer but prone to bigger defensive and outbreak blunders. But, I see your point. Still, my point is that it's harder to draft an elite forward outside of the first round, compared to defensemen.

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03-09-2013, 08:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Disagree, solid is not excellent. Calgary as a team has been poor and Bouwmeester has been a big part of it. They traded for him with the mentality that he'd be a #1 defenseman and I think he's been playing more like a #2 (if that). His offensive zone play and contribution has been poor and his point totals have dropped significantly as a result the past three years.
Since Brent Sutter was fired, Bouwmeester has been the number one defensemen the Flames thought they were getting when they traded for him. His point totals and overall play are pretty much back to where they were when he was in Florida.

It's become painfully obvious that Sutter held him back. And now that he's gone, Bouwmeester's back to normal.

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03-09-2013, 09:00 PM
  #82
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Since Brent Sutter was fired, Bouwmeester has been the number one defensemen the Flames thought they were getting when they traded for him. His point totals and overall play are pretty much back to where they were when he was in Florida.

It's become painfully obvious that Sutter held him back. And now that he's gone, Bouwmeester's back to normal.
That makes sense, because he's looked better this year. However, to say he was excellent the past 3 years was misguided.

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03-09-2013, 09:21 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
That makes sense, because he's looked better this year. However, to say he was excellent the past 3 years was misguided.
He was solid defensively in that period but you're right; he was by no means excellent. Under Sutter, his offensive abilities were neutered and as a result, he looked a lot more like a #2 defensemen.

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03-09-2013, 09:24 PM
  #84
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He was solid defensively in that period but you're right; he was by no means excellent. Under Sutter, his offensive abilities were neutered and as a result, he looked a lot more like a #2 defensemen.
A lot of games I saw these past 3 years, he looked like a #3 defenseman being forced to play top line minutes. I'm happy for you that he's back to playing better hockey though.

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03-10-2013, 08:44 AM
  #85
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If we lose to the panthers on Tuesday, Buffalo picks up a point in their next game and Edmonton gets a point in either of their next two we are in last place.
The way this team can't get games to OT and pick up points I see us looking strong for the top pick.
Pittsburgh built there team by getting the top pick twice and the second pick twice in a four year span, we should try to tank at this point.

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03-10-2013, 09:55 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
Larsson in the playoffs was excellent. Bouwmeester has been pretty excellent. Healthy, productive. EJ has been very good, was also hampered with a crappy coach for a while in STL. JJ has his flashes, it really depends on what you're expecting of him.
Also that knee injury.

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03-10-2013, 11:03 AM
  #87
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If we lose to the panthers on Tuesday, Buffalo picks up a point in their next game and Edmonton gets a point in either of their next two we are in last place.
The way this team can't get games to OT and pick up points I see us looking strong for the top pick.
Pittsburgh built there team by getting the top pick twice and the second pick twice in a four year span, we should try to tank at this point.
Whitney, Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, J.Staal...so based on that blueprint, what position should we draft?

Ideally, a goalie but there hasn't been a goalie worth taking with the first 5 picks since Carey Price. Without a legit goaltender, we'll always struggle to win games. Hopefully, we draft high this year and work on either improving Lindy's game or Vasilevski is ready next year (realistically two seasons from now). We only have Stamkos and Hedman (Connolly was 6th) that were in the top 5 within the past 5 drafts. I'm not saying that a franchise-type forward is necessarily the way to go, since BPA is always recommended, but based on Pittsburgh's blueprint it's worked out thus far.

IF the scouts see Drouin and Jones as the top 2 without any discrepancy, I say we go Drouin. If the scouts and experts believe Seth is the BPA at 1, then I say we go Jones.

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03-10-2013, 11:58 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Whitney, Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, J.Staal...so based on that blueprint, what position should we draft?

Ideally, a goalie but there hasn't been a goalie worth taking with the first 5 picks since Carey Price. Without a legit goaltender, we'll always struggle to win games. Hopefully, we draft high this year and work on either improving Lindy's game or Vasilevski is ready next year (realistically two seasons from now). We only have Stamkos and Hedman (Connolly was 6th) that were in the top 5 within the past 5 drafts. I'm not saying that a franchise-type forward is necessarily the way to go, since BPA is always recommended, but based on Pittsburgh's blueprint it's worked out thus far.

IF the scouts see Drouin and Jones as the top 2 without any discrepancy, I say we go Drouin. If the scouts and experts believe Seth is the BPA at 1, then I say we go Jones.
I believe we have the goaltender in Vasileskiy, he wasn't a top 5 pick but I really don't think teams will be picking goalies that high anymore. There's too much risk and you can get a good one in later rounds. I also think Vasilskiy would've been top 10 if he was north American.
They went center heavy who also were BPA, they also had a need there. We have 2 top centers already so we should go BPA first then D personally. We should try to build from the net out.
A D with Hedman-Jones, Barberio-Koekkoek, Aulie-Gudas looks pretty strong and young. We need Carle to really turn it around, he'll be in Koekkoek spot until he is ready to make the jump to the NHL.
Connolly hopefully can turn into a James Neal type sniper. Namestnikov is no Staal but hopefully he can become a strong two way 3C who puts up 40-50 points.
The problem we'll have is that it's going to be 3 years before most of this is hypothetically possible. By then St. Louis will be retired and Vinny most likely won't be a 2C type player. So we'll have a strong D but might be lacking in the offense.
Maybe Panik can become something like Kunitz, Conacher becomes a great playmaker to set up Stamkos and Connolly. Im not sure what Killorn projects to be, he's talented but I don't see top 6 offensive instincts. He can be a great 3rd line scorer who can step in on the 2nd line.

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03-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by HoseEmDown View Post
I believe we have the goaltender in Vasileskiy, he wasn't a top 5 pick but I really don't think teams will be picking goalies that high anymore. There's too much risk and you can get a good one in later rounds. I also think Vasilskiy would've been top 10 if he was north American.
They went center heavy who also were BPA, they also had a need there. We have 2 top centers already so we should go BPA first then D personally. We should try to build from the net out.
A D with Hedman-Jones, Barberio-Koekkoek, Aulie-Gudas looks pretty strong and young. We need Carle to really turn it around, he'll be in Koekkoek spot until he is ready to make the jump to the NHL.
Connolly hopefully can turn into a James Neal type sniper. Namestnikov is no Staal but hopefully he can become a strong two way 3C who puts up 40-50 points.
The problem we'll have is that it's going to be 3 years before most of this is hypothetically possible. By then St. Louis will be retired and Vinny most likely won't be a 2C type player. So we'll have a strong D but might be lacking in the offense.
Maybe Panik can become something like Kunitz, Conacher becomes a great playmaker to set up Stamkos and Connolly. Im not sure what Killorn projects to be, he's talented but I don't see top 6 offensive instincts. He can be a great 3rd line scorer who can step in on the 2nd line.
I agree with you that we should go BPA regardless of where we pick. All I'm saying is that if a forward is rated as BPA, then by no means should we go for Jones just because he's a defenseman.

I don't see us following the Pittsburgh blueprint, there's no chance we can match what Crosby and Malkin can do together. I liken Stamkos to Malkin with a more accurate shot and less hands/vision though.

If there's a blueprint we're following, I reckon we're closer to Chicago's when they won the cup. Killorn can blossom into a Hossa, while Conacher could be like Versteeg (more productive, not as clutch yet). Hedman has already become our best defenseman and shows the qualities of a Duncan Keith. We don't have a Toews who's a phenomenal two-way player, but I'd take Stamkos' offensive/game-changing ability over him any day of the week. I'd also take Vinny over Bolland, but his work as a pest is very useful and he's also a good shutdown center. We're hoping that Vasilevski can become as good as Niemi or better. We need to find a Seabrook, Sharp and Kane though (Jones has more potential and offensive ability than Seabrook, while Drouin is quite like Kane/Giroux).

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03-10-2013, 12:39 PM
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I didn't include Marty in my TB to Chi comparison because I think he'll be retired by the time such a team is ready to compete.

I'm also not quite sure what to make of Connolly yet. Perhaps he could be the secondary scorer like Sharp, but needs some serious work on his defensive game to be as important as Sharp is to Chicago.

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03-10-2013, 12:59 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by HoseEmDown View Post
I believe we have the goaltender in Vasileskiy, he wasn't a top 5 pick but I really don't think teams will be picking goalies that high anymore. There's too much risk and you can get a good one in later rounds. I also think Vasilskiy would've been top 10 if he was north American.
They went center heavy who also were BPA, they also had a need there. We have 2 top centers already so we should go BPA first then D personally. We should try to build from the net out.
A D with Hedman-Jones, Barberio-Koekkoek, Aulie-Gudas looks pretty strong and young. We need Carle to really turn it around, he'll be in Koekkoek spot until he is ready to make the jump to the NHL.
Connolly hopefully can turn into a James Neal type sniper. Namestnikov is no Staal but hopefully he can become a strong two way 3C who puts up 40-50 points.
The problem we'll have is that it's going to be 3 years before most of this is hypothetically possible. By then St. Louis will be retired and Vinny most likely won't be a 2C type player. So we'll have a strong D but might be lacking in the offense.
Maybe Panik can become something like Kunitz, Conacher becomes a great playmaker to set up Stamkos and Connolly. Im not sure what Killorn projects to be, he's talented but I don't see top 6 offensive instincts. He can be a great 3rd line scorer who can step in on the 2nd line.
I don't have any fears about our offensive future. I think our Offense could very well look like this:

Conacher-Stamkos-Connolly
Killorn-Lecavalier/Vladdy-Kucherov
Palat-Lecavalier/Vladdy-Panik
??-Pyatt-??

AND that would mean we don't hang on Pouliot, Johnson, Purcell, Malone.
If any of the guys above doesn't develop as expected, we could just use Johnson instead or stay with Purcell, or maybe a guy like Richard is ready in 3 years as well.

So seriously our offense will never lack firepower in the near future.

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03-10-2013, 01:15 PM
  #92
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I don't have any fears about our offensive future. I think our Offense could very well look like this:

Conacher-Stamkos-Connolly
Killorn-Lecavalier/Vladdy-Kucherov
Palat-Lecavalier/Vladdy-Panik
??-Pyatt-??

AND that would mean we don't hang on Pouliot, Johnson, Purcell, Malone.
If any of the guys above doesn't develop as expected, we could just use Johnson instead or stay with Purcell, or maybe a guy like Richard is ready in 3 years as well.

So seriously our offense will never lack firepower in the near future.
Vladdy hasn't shown me the qualities of a top 6 forward and he's not good enough defensively to play as a third line C. I'm not quite sure what to make of him at this point, though he still has plenty of time to improve/develop. Lecavalier will likely be playing as a third line C by 2015 (should be). Kucherov is intriguing, hopefully his game can translate to the NHL level and he's not another Filatov.

Aside from Stammer, none of those forwards are elite. There's definitely some good potential there, but the jury's still out on whether they can be top offensive players or just solid, contributing ones.

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03-10-2013, 01:55 PM
  #93
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Vladdy hasn't shown me the qualities of a top 6 forward and he's not good enough defensively to play as a third line C. I'm not quite sure what to make of him at this point, though he still has plenty of time to improve/develop. Lecavalier will likely be playing as a third line C by 2015 (should be). Kucherov is intriguing, hopefully his game can translate to the NHL level and he's not another Filatov.

Aside from Stammer, none of those forwards are elite. There's definitely some good potential there, but the jury's still out on whether they can be top offensive players or just solid, contributing ones.
Have you lost faith in the whole oganization?

I think Conacher has everything to be called an elite prospect. 20 points in 25 games is quite a lot for a rookie. And no team has really 6 elite players. Pittsburgh has 2/3 elite players and the rest of the top6 isn't great. Kunitz plays well above his abilitys this season, so I wouldn't count him anything near elite.
So if Conacher and another guy (most likely Kucherov or Connolly) are able to put up 60-70 points season. That would be a hell of a first line. And Lecavalier, Panik, Killorn, Palat, Vladdy/Johnson and Connolly/Kucherov are able to put up something around 40 points, this would be the a huge Offense, and even if one or another guy doesn't come up to my prediction, there is still July 1st and so on.

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03-10-2013, 02:21 PM
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Have you lost faith in the whole oganization?

I think Conacher has everything to be called an elite prospect. 20 points in 25 games is quite a lot for a rookie. And no team has really 6 elite players. Pittsburgh has 2/3 elite players and the rest of the top6 isn't great. Kunitz plays well above his abilitys this season, so I wouldn't count him anything near elite.
So if Conacher and another guy (most likely Kucherov or Connolly) are able to put up 60-70 points season. That would be a hell of a first line. And Lecavalier, Panik, Killorn, Palat, Vladdy/Johnson and Connolly/Kucherov are able to put up something around 40 points, this would be the a huge Offense, and even if one or another guy doesn't come up to my prediction, there is still July 1st and so on.
When did I say I had lost faith in the whole organization?

You've completely missed my point, you incorrectly ASSUMED that I said needed 6 elite forwards.

Pittsburgh has 3 elite forwards in Crosby, Malkin and Neal. We'd have one in Stamkos with the lineup you gave. We would need two elite offensive players to have a serious run at the cup (or an elite goaltender which are very rare these days). You overrate potential in prospects who have not delivered at even the AHL level yet (ex. Vladdy, Kucherov).

When I say elite, I'm talking about a player like Pat Kane, Tavares, Vanek, Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Giroux etc. Conacher strikes me as the type of player just a notch below that level of a player, though he still has room to improve. There's nothing wrong with him being in our top 6, as I love him as a player. As for Connolly, I like him in our top 6 as well, though I'd reserve calling him an elite offensive player at this point too.


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03-10-2013, 02:25 PM
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Have you lost faith in the whole oganization?

I think Conacher has everything to be called an elite prospect. 20 points in 25 games is quite a lot for a rookie. And no team has really 6 elite players. Pittsburgh has 2/3 elite players and the rest of the top6 isn't great. Kunitz plays well above his abilitys this season, so I wouldn't count him anything near elite.
So if Conacher and another guy (most likely Kucherov or Connolly) are able to put up 60-70 points season. That would be a hell of a first line. And Lecavalier, Panik, Killorn, Palat, Vladdy/Johnson and Connolly/Kucherov are able to put up something around 40 points, this would be the a huge Offense, and even if one or another guy doesn't come up to my prediction, there is still July 1st and so on.
That's extremely wishful thinking though. Half those guys will be playing on our third or fourth lines, IF they are kept on our team at all down the road. Connolly, Lecavalier and Killorn could definitely hit 40+.

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03-10-2013, 05:16 PM
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When did I say I had lost faith in the whole organization?

You've completely missed my point, you incorrectly ASSUMED that I said needed 6 elite forwards.

Pittsburgh has 3 elite forwards in Crosby, Malkin and Neal. We'd have one in Stamkos with the lineup you gave. We would need two elite offensive players to have a serious run at the cup (or an elite goaltender which are very rare these days). You overrate potential in prospects who have not delivered at even the AHL level yet (ex. Vladdy, Kucherov).

When I say elite, I'm talking about a player like Pat Kane, Tavares, Vanek, Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Giroux etc. Conacher strikes me as the type of player just a notch below that level of a player, though he still has room to improve. There's nothing wrong with him being in our top 6, as I love him as a player. As for Connolly, I like him in our top 6 as well, though I'd reserve calling him an elite offensive player at this point too.
Where were the elite offensive players on Boston's team? Or the Kings?

You don't need elite players, you need elite depth. What most of the recent cup-winners have been able to do is find scoring throughout their line-up while playing a strong defensive game. And guessing what our line-up will look like three years from now is probably an exercise in futility... there's simply no way of knowing the myriad of things that could happen to change these plans. Also, let's face it, talent-wise this team is too good. We'll probably make a run here in a little bit and end up picking in the 8-12 range rather than top 5.

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03-10-2013, 06:45 PM
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Where were the elite offensive players on Boston's team? Or the Kings?

You don't need elite players, you need elite depth. What most of the recent cup-winners have been able to do is find scoring throughout their line-up while playing a strong defensive game. And guessing what our line-up will look like three years from now is probably an exercise in futility... there's simply no way of knowing the myriad of things that could happen to change these plans. Also, let's face it, talent-wise this team is too good. We'll probably make a run here in a little bit and end up picking in the 8-12 range rather than top 5.
That's why I said you need a min of 2 elite forwards OR you need an elite goaltender...do any of you read through what the op writes before rushing in with your opinions? The kings had Kopitar who by all accounts is an elite forward, while it's true the Bruins had none (only a burgeoning one in Seguin). The kings also had Quick and the Bruins had Thomas, we have nothing close to that unless Vasilevski develops like we hope he will.

I don't think we'll be drafting top 3 when this season is over either.

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03-11-2013, 04:12 PM
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The reality is, Jones won't make a huge impact for the first 2-3 seasons. Defensive development is cloudy that way. If we're going to add a big piece through the draft I'd rather add a dynamic forward. Drouin, MacKinnon, and Barkov are all likely to be contributing NHL forwards next season. They also have a better chance of becoming elite players sooner rather than later, as precendent prospects have shown us over the last 10 years. Our window with Lecavalier and St. Louis is short, I'd rather add to our competitiveness in the short term than take a big risk in the long term. Drafting one of the big-3 centers would also give us depth at center (our current depth is very misleading).

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03-11-2013, 04:19 PM
  #99
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The reality is, Jones won't make a huge impact for the first 2-3 seasons. Defensive development is cloudy that way. If we're going to add a big piece through the draft I'd rather add a dynamic forward. Drouin, MacKinnon, and Barkov are all likely to be contributing NHL forwards next season. They also have a better chance of becoming elite players sooner rather than later, as precendent prospects have shown us over the last 10 years. Our window with Lecavalier and St. Louis is short, I'd rather add to our competitiveness in the short term than take a big risk in the long term. Drafting one of the big-3 centers would also give us depth at center (our current depth is very misleading).
Interesting view. When I see Drouin play, I see elite level talent but a player who will need to add considerable strength to his frame and another year of seasoning to refine aspects of his game, especially defensive responsibilities, before he's ready for the NHL. MacKinnon's game will be more transferrable imo, he just has a lower ceiling than Drouin. I think MacKinnon, Monahan and Barkov are the only three prospects in this draft that could play in the NHL next year.

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03-11-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Wyzerman View Post
The reality is, Jones won't make a huge impact for the first 2-3 seasons. Defensive development is cloudy that way. If we're going to add a big piece through the draft I'd rather add a dynamic forward. Drouin, MacKinnon, and Barkov are all likely to be contributing NHL forwards next season. They also have a better chance of becoming elite players sooner rather than later, as precendent prospects have shown us over the last 10 years. Our window with Lecavalier and St. Louis is short, I'd rather add to our competitiveness in the short term than take a big risk in the long term. Drafting one of the big-3 centers would also give us depth at center (our current depth is very misleading).
I highly doubt that it takes Jones that long to make an impact. He'll have some issues but I can see him playing next year and holding his own. He's more physically ready than either Drouin or MacKinnon who might need to go back to juniors to bulk up.

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