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ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
03-09-2013, 08:58 PM
  #326
Dreakmur
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Well, I suppose I'll throw our special team units in here too.

Power Play;
Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jarome Iginla
Segei Gonchar - Yuri Liapkin

Russell Bowie - Pierre Turgeon - Vic Stasiuk
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

George Hay, Pavol Demitra are options, and might take Stasiuk's spot if going against a small team that won't need a big body on the second unit.

Penalty Kill;
Red Sullivan - Jack Walker
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Howie Morenz - Aurele Joliat
Rod Seiling - Bob Goldham

George Hay, Vic Stasiuk are options, and actually will be used a bit when the above forwards tire.

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03-09-2013, 09:32 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, I suppose I'll throw our special team units in here too.

Power Play;
Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jarome Iginla
Segei Gonchar - Yuri Liapkin

Russell Bowie - Pierre Turgeon - Vic Stasiuk
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

George Hay, Pavol Demitra are options, and might take Stasiuk's spot if going against a small team that won't need a big body on the second unit.

Penalty Kill;
Red Sullivan - Jack Walker
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Howie Morenz - Aurele Joliat
Rod Seiling - Bob Goldham

George Hay, Vic Stasiuk are options, and actually will be used a bit when the above forwards tire.
Looks good. I would rank Demitra over Stasiuk for the second PP but like you say you could use some size. Turgeon and Demitra must have played together on the PP in St Louis - I wonder how their forwards worked.

The missing piece in what you listed is your coach. What is Tarasov's philosophy on special teams units? You'll need to be on the same page as your coach.

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03-09-2013, 09:34 PM
  #328
tony d
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Finally have my top 6 defensemen drafted, is this the proper pairings for these 6:

Tim Horton-Jan Suchy
Red Horner-Craig Hartsburg
Steve Smith-Phil Russell

PP 1:

Horton-Suchy

PP 2:

Hartsburg-Russell

PK 1: Russell-Horton

PK 2: Suchy-Horner

All thoughts are welcome

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03-09-2013, 10:12 PM
  #329
Dreakmur
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The missing piece in what you listed is your coach. What is Tarasov's philosophy on special teams units? You'll need to be on the same page as your coach.
I don't think Tarasov is a guy you can put into a single philosophy box like you can most other coaches. He was such an inovator and such and experimenter. He used so many ideas, techniques, and stragies that he's a guy who can coach pretty much any kind of team and any style.

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03-10-2013, 11:03 AM
  #330
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So, what do you guys think about my defence? On top of all i'm wondering if Suter is the best fit on the top pairing, i think he can hold up on a pair with Fetisov.

Slava Fetisov-Gary Suter
Paul Reinhart-Ken Morrow
Ulf Samuelsson-James Patrick

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03-10-2013, 11:13 AM
  #331
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The missing piece in what you listed is your coach. What is Tarasov's philosophy on special teams units? You'll need to be on the same page as your coach.
As I understand it, the Soviets generally left their scoringlines together as powerplay units. They put a heavy emphasis on chemistry in all of their offensive systems, which I believe came from Tasarov, but I couldn't swear to that. Most of my knowledge of Soviet systems begins at about the point Tasarov's career as coach of the national team ended.

At any rate, I doubt it matters much for ATD purposes.

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03-10-2013, 11:26 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So, what do you guys think about my defence? On top of all i'm wondering if Suter is the best fit on the top pairing, i think he can hold up on a pair with Fetisov.

Slava Fetisov-Gary Suter
Paul Reinhart-Ken Morrow
Ulf Samuelsson-James Patrick
1st pairing: Fetisov is a strong, do-it-all #1 in the ATD. I've got him as the 8th best defenseman of all time, which is where he generally gets drafted. Suter is really more of a good #3 and powerplay specialist than a #2, and is especially suspect at even-strength against ATD top units. Fetisov - Suter is an outstanding 1st unit powerplay point combination, but I think they'll be a bit below average at even strength due to Suter's relative weakness in this area.

2nd pairing: Both are really #4s, and not spectacular ones. To be honest, I think Reinhart is best as an offensive bottom-pairing player. Morrow is fine, though not high-end, as the defensive conscience of a second pairing, but overall this looks to be a relatively weak unit at even strength.

3rd pairing: Strong bottom pairing. I like both of these guys in their roles, and both add value as special teams players, in different roles. Patrick - Reinhart makes a strong 2nd unit PP pairing, and Samuelsson can take a regular shift on your second unit PK. Overall, a good pair of defensemen for their roles.

- at even strength, I think this group is going to be somewhat below average because your #2, #3 and #4 defensemen are all relatively weak. But you've got a strong #1 and a good bottom pairing, so it's not a critical problem.

- the powerplay points should be very well-manned.

- you seem to be missing one penalty killer. Fetisov - Morrow is most likely your best option for the top unit, and Ulfie is a fine 2nd unit PKer, but none of the other defensemen really belong on an ATD PK. I guess you can press Gary Suter into this role, but he's not particularly strong there.

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03-10-2013, 12:04 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
As I understand it, the Soviets generally left their scoringlines together as powerplay units. They put a heavy emphasis on chemistry in all of their offensive systems, which I believe came from Tasarov, but I couldn't swear to that. Most of my knowledge of Soviet systems begins at about the point Tasarov's career as coach of the national team ended.

At any rate, I doubt it matters much for ATD purposes.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about the Soviets - they didn't juggle a lot on special teams. Not sure what Tarasov had to do with that. i asked Dreak because I thought he might have a relevant quote from Road to Olympus in front of him.

I think coaches matter for player usage though. For example, my team has Ken Hitchcock as their coach. So Toe Blake and Elmer Lach will be on one of the top two PK units, because that's what Hitch does. His best forwards always kill penalties. On the other hand, if Toe Blake was my coach I would make sure my fourth liners could kill penalties.

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03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
  #334
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Thoughts on my 3rd line of:

Mike Richards-Jean Ratelle-Danny Gare

? My thought was that it can sort of function the way his NYR line did in real. Of course, Mike Richards is nowhere close to Rod Gilbert, but both Richards and Gare are easily much better than Vic Hadfield(who should be in the MLD if you ask me). Gare and Richards are more than willing to fight and stick up for their teammates if anyone tries to mess with Ratelle. Neither is a heavyweight, as both are more tough middleweights, but I think it should be fine. Gare is the shooter, and Richards is there to supply some supporting playmaking to take advantage of Ratelle's goal-scoring abilities.

Also, our special teams units are basically finished(have to draft one more PK forward as the 4th line RW), here they are:

PP1:Alexander Ovechkin-Cyclone Taylor-Kevin Stevens
Brad Park-Kevin Hatcher

PP2: Jean Ratelle-Joe Thornton-Joe Mullen
Scott Niedermayer-Mike Richards

PK1: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Bob Armstrong-Lionel Hitchman

PK2: Mike Richards-_____
Brad Park-Vitaly Davydov

PK3: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Lionel Hitchman-Scott Niedermayer

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03-11-2013, 04:34 PM
  #335
tony d
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Was wondering about this lineup for my 2 PP units?:

PP 1: Cy Denneny- Adam Oates-Rod Gilbert-Peter Bondra-Tim Horton
PP 2: Dean Prentice-Bobby Clarke-Milan Hejduk-Craig Hartsburg-Jan Suchy

Also how about this for my top 6 on defense:

Jan Suchy-Tim Horton
Red Horner-Craig Hartsburg
Steve Smith- Phil Russell

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03-11-2013, 04:50 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Thoughts on my 3rd line of:

Mike Richards-Jean Ratelle-Danny Gare

? My thought was that it can sort of function the way his NYR line did in real. Of course, Mike Richards is nowhere close to Rod Gilbert, but both Richards and Gare are easily much better than Vic Hadfield(who should be in the MLD if you ask me). Gare and Richards are more than willing to fight and stick up for their teammates if anyone tries to mess with Ratelle. Neither is a heavyweight, as both are more tough middleweights, but I think it should be fine. Gare is the shooter, and Richards is there to supply some supporting playmaking to take advantage of Ratelle's goal-scoring abilities.

Also, our special teams units are basically finished(have to draft one more PK forward as the 4th line RW), here they are:

PP1:Alexander Ovechkin-Cyclone Taylor-Kevin Stevens
Brad Park-Kevin Hatcher

PP2: Jean Ratelle-Joe Thornton-Joe Mullen
Scott Niedermayer-Mike Richards

PK1: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Bob Armstrong-Lionel Hitchman

PK2: Mike Richards-_____
Brad Park-Vitaly Davydov

PK3: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Lionel Hitchman-Scott Niedermayer
I guess having Richards be able to feed the puck back to Ratelle is nice, but I really feel a lot of Ratelle's playmaking will be wasted with Gare being the main triggerman for the line. Then again, it'll still be better offensively than just about any other third line.

As for special teams, you have a lot of talent on the second PP, but it is going to be very guilty of over-passing, and I don't really see much of a net presence. With all the centers you have, it seems like you might want to consider playing Ovechkin or Taylor at the point of the powerplay.

The PK is somewhat underwhelming, at least on the blue line. One change I would definitely make is to put Hitchman and Armstrong on their proper sides.

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03-11-2013, 05:41 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Was wondering about this lineup for my 2 PP units?:

PP 1: Cy Denneny- Adam Oates-Rod Gilbert-Peter Bondra-Tim Horton
PP 2: Dean Prentice-Bobby Clarke-Milan Hejduk-Craig Hartsburg-Jan Suchy
The powerplay looks good. First unit is well-built, very solid. You don't have much in the way of shooters on the second unit, but it's not lacking in talent, especially on the points, which are very strong.

Quote:
Also how about this for my top 6 on defense:

Jan Suchy-Tim Horton
Red Horner-Craig Hartsburg
Steve Smith- Phil Russell
- Horton is an above-average #1, and Suchy is probably about an average #2, so this looks like it will be a somewhat above average pairing, with good chemistry.

- Horner is a decent #3. I always kind of wonder about his lack of all-star recognition during his career, but he brings a solid all-around game (better offense and specifically playmaking than a lot of people realize) and seems about an average #3 here. It's a shame that Hartsburg's prime got cut so short by injuries. He was quite good at his peak and I think underrated because he played in such a backwater. I think he ends up being about an average #4 who you may have overdrafted slightly. It's no crime to take Hartsburg where you did, but I'm not in love with his value in comparison to guys like Beck, Duncan, Davydov, Numminen, Cook, Svedberg and Harris, all of whom were still out there at the time you took Hartsburg. Anyway, I think Horner - Hartsburg ends up being about an average second pairing.

- Phil Russell is a good #5 and a player that I like. Steve Smith is a good #6, as well. The pairing may be a little light on puckmoving (though both men had some ability in that department), but it will be tight defensively and isn't going to give an inch to the bangers who populate many lower lines in the ATD. An above average 3rd pairing, I'd say.

Overall, a good defense. It's not wow, but there aren't really any clear weaknesses, either, and all of the parts seem to fit. I think it's a bit above the ATD median this year.

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03-11-2013, 08:15 PM
  #338
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just thought i'd throw the Kenora special teams units in here for some thoughts / criticisms

Powerplay:
PP1: Valery Kharlamov - Dale Hawerchuk - Sergei Makarov - Niklas Lidstrom - Rene Robert
PP2: Vladimir Krutov - Igor Larionov - Ken Hodge - Babe Pratt - Ian Turnbull

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Doug Jarvis - Eric Nesterenko - Niklas Lidstrom - Cy Wentworth
PK2: Igor Larionov - Hec Kilrea - Ted Harris - Alexander Ragulin

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03-11-2013, 08:18 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess having Richards be able to feed the puck back to Ratelle is nice, but I really feel a lot of Ratelle's playmaking will be wasted with Gare being the main triggerman for the line. Then again, it'll still be better offensively than just about any other third line.
Gare is a very goal-heavy player, putting up four top 10s in ES goals playing with Craig Ramsay and Don Luce, who were worse offensively than Gare and were both assist-heavy players, which makes their offense a bit less valuable compared to a more pure goal scorer like Gare. You could make the argument that basically any linemates you could put Ratelle with on a 3rd line won't take full advantage of his playmaking while still being a respectable line defensively and in terms of physicality. Here's a look at Gare & Richards compared to Gilbert and Hadfield at ES:

Gilbert: .2653 adjusted ES Goals/Game over 1,065 games
Hadfield: .225 adjusted ES Goals/Game over 1,002 games

=.4903 adjusted ES Goals/Game playing with Jean Ratelle

Gare: .2723 adjusted ES Goals/Game over 827 games
Richards: .1597 adjusted ES Goals/Game over 550 games

=.432 adjusted ES Goals/Game playing with Ramsay/Luce(Gare) and Gagne/Knuble/Lupul/JVR(Richards)

Richards is obviously the big weak link here compared to the other 3. His point totals probably won't translate totally to wing, but as a wing, his goal totals would probably increase a bit while his playmaking would decrease. Vic Hadfield confuses me because he played with Jean Ratelle and Rod Gilbert for around 10 years, and scored 30 goals just once. But when he went to Pittsburgh at the tail end of his career, he put up back to back 30 goal seasons playing next to guys who are nothing compared to Gilbert and Ratelle. Where was Hadfield's finishing ability when he was likely on the receiving end of all those great passes from Ratelle and Gilbert?

Take into account the fact Hadfield, Ratelle, and Gilbert played together and Gare/Richards played with inferior linemates, I don't think it's that big of an issue at ES. Richards and Ratelle will be on the PP, while Gare will rely on the strong ES goal scoring he exemplified in Buffalo.
Quote:
As for special teams, you have a lot of talent on the second PP, but it is going to be very guilty of over-passing, and I don't really see much of a net presence. With all the centers you have, it seems like you might want to consider playing Ovechkin or Taylor at the point of the powerplay.
What about this:

Ratelle-Taylor-Stevens
Park-Hatcher

Ovechkin-Thornton-Mullen
Niedermayer-Richards

For the first unit, it gives the option for Taylor or Ratelle to be a shooter. Taylor is often looked at as a playmaker, but people forget that he led the PCHA in goals 3 times. It would mean that our 1st PP unit doesn't have a true trigger man, but two guys that can both score, and a great net presence in front with Stevens. Then for the 2nd PP, there is still no net presence, but it functions more like a normal line.

Quote:
The PK is somewhat underwhelming, at least on the blue line. One change I would definitely make is to put Hitchman and Armstrong on their proper sides.
I wasn't paying any attention to sides, I'll make that adjustment. I was trying to limit Park's minutes a bit, but do you think he could do triple first unit duty? Also, what do you recall about Niedermayer on the PK? It doesn't look like he killed penalties all that much in NJ.

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03-11-2013, 09:12 PM
  #340
Darth Yoda
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Vic Hadfield confuses me because he played with Jean Ratelle and Rod Gilbert for around 10 years, and scored 30 goals just once. But when he went to Pittsburgh at the tail end of his career, he put up back to back 30 goal seasons playing next to guys who are nothing compared to Gilbert and Ratelle. Where was Hadfield's finishing ability when he was likely on the receiving end of all those great passes from Ratelle and Gilbert?
Pittsburgh had some quality forwards back then, nothing to scuff at.

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03-11-2013, 10:22 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
What about this:

Ratelle-Taylor-Stevens
Park-Hatcher

Ovechkin-Thornton-Mullen
Niedermayer-Richards

For the first unit, it gives the option for Taylor or Ratelle to be a shooter. Taylor is often looked at as a playmaker, but people forget that he led the PCHA in goals 3 times. It would mean that our 1st PP unit doesn't have a true trigger man, but two guys that can both score, and a great net presence in front with Stevens. Then for the 2nd PP, there is still no net presence, but it functions more like a normal line.


I wasn't paying any attention to sides, I'll make that adjustment. I was trying to limit Park's minutes a bit, but do you think he could do triple first unit duty? Also, what do you recall about Niedermayer on the PK? It doesn't look like he killed penalties all that much in NJ.
I don't think Mike Richards can play 3rd line minutes and 2nd unit of both special teams. I would take him off the 2nd PP, and put Ovechkin on the point on the 1st unit for Hatcher. I'd probably have Oatman fill the open space up front on the 2nd unit or draft a 4th liner that can do it.

I think Park is a borderline guy when it comes to being able to play all three 1st units. Considering he has a weaker partner at even strength I probably wouldn't do it.

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03-11-2013, 11:34 PM
  #342
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Woody Dumart - Doug Gilmour - Mike Bossy
Paul Thompson - Frank Fredrickson - Bob Nevin
Gilles Tremblay - Ivan Hlinka - John MacLean
LW - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

Ching Johnson - Carl Brewer
Art Duncan - Jack Crawford
Phil Housley - D


I'm thinking this for Captains...

C: Nevin
A: Gilmour
A: Johnson

Thoughts?

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03-11-2013, 11:58 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Woody Dumart - Doug Gilmour - Mike Bossy
Paul Thompson - Frank Fredrickson - Bob Nevin
Gilles Tremblay - Ivan Hlinka - John MacLean
LW - Craig Conroy - Ryan Kesler

Carl Brewer - Ching Johnson
Art Duncan - Jack Crawford
Phil Housley - D


I'm thinking this for Captains...

C: Nevin
A: Gilmour
A: Johnson

Thoughts?
My first question was who is your coach, but seeing it's Day makes me like this squad a lot more than I would if you went for a run and gun coach. Dumart and Nevin are somewhat underwhelming on a first and second line, but they seem to be fits for the structured defensive game Day liked. Same thing with your centers, minus the underwhelming part.

Try to sell Hlinka, I remember being impressed by the Golden Stick voting/all-star stuff Theokritos posted about him on the history board (hope I'm not out to lunch here) and he may be a good offensive catalyst for a third line. MacLean has lots of adjusted even-strength scoring so I think he's a nice compliment. If he didn't hurt his knee he'd probably be an elite third liner instead of a solid one. I've been asking myself what makes Jim Pappin better than him and can really only ham up playoff scoring and cop out to skating with Hart being my coach. Tremblay brings the speed and defensive game to help him out.

I think I raised some eyebrows last year having Bobby Orr play under Day, so Housley on the third pair is probably the way to go. Let him be valuable in his role instead of giving something to pick at. I think Duncan works on a second pair too so I don't see it as forcing the issue.

The only thing I'd consider with your letters is swapping Nevin and Gilmour. I had Nevin as an A last year and I don't think he's bad wearing the C though.

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03-12-2013, 12:09 AM
  #344
Hawkey Town 18
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My first question was who is your coach, but seeing it's Day makes me like this squad a lot more than I would if you went for a run and gun coach. Dumart and Nevin are somewhat underwhelming on a first and second line, but they seem to be fits for the structured defensive game Day liked. Same thing with your centers, minus the underwhelming part.

Try to sell Hlinka, I remember being impressed by the Golden Stick voting/all-star stuff Theokritos posted about him on the history board (hope I'm not out to lunch here) and he may be a good offensive catalyst for a third line. MacLean has lots of adjusted even-strength scoring so I think he's a nice compliment. If he didn't hurt his knee he'd probably be an elite third liner instead of a solid one. I've been asking myself what makes Jim Pappin better than him and can really only ham up playoff scoring and cop out to skating with Hart being my coach. Tremblay brings the speed and defensive game to help him out.

I think I raised some eyebrows last year having Bobby Orr play under Day, so Housley on the third pair is probably the way to go. Let him be valuable in his role instead of giving something to pick at. I think Duncan works on a second pair too so I don't see it as forcing the issue.

The only thing I'd consider with your letters is swapping Nevin and Gilmour. I had Nevin as an A last year and I don't think he's bad wearing the C though.
Thanks for the in depth response...I was just expecting people to chime in about my captains, but it's nice to get other input as well.

Nevin vs. Gilmour for the C was the big thing I was having trouble deciding...Nevin has 7 years as a Captain and Gilmour only 4 (3 with TOR, 1 with CHI), but Gilmour is a much better player.


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03-12-2013, 12:18 AM
  #345
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Thanks for the in depth response...I was just expecting people to chime in about my captains, but it's nice to get other input as well.

Nevin vs. Gilmour for the C was the big thing I was having trouble deciding...Nevin has 7 years as a Captain and Gilmour only 3, but Gilmour is a much better player.
Hah misunderstood that clearly.

That's true. I do find it impressive that more than one team wanted Gilmour as their captain though, I think it says a lot if you can step onto a team and be given the C pretty quickly.

I don't want you to think I'm pimping Gilmour because he's better. I don't think I'm going to end up giving Leetch or Bathgate a letter even though they're some of the better players on my team and captains themselves. Nevin is the type of guy I'd give letters before them despite the talent disparities.

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03-12-2013, 12:23 AM
  #346
Hawkey Town 18
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Hah misunderstood that clearly.

That's true. I do find it impressive that more than one team wanted Gilmour as their captain though, I think it says a lot if you can step onto a team and be given the C pretty quickly.

I don't want you to think I'm pimping Gilmour because he's better. I don't think I'm going to end up giving Leetch or Bathgate a letter even though they're some of the better players on my team and captains themselves. Nevin is the type of guy I'd give letters before them despite the talent disparities.
Totally forgot that Gilmour was Captain of the Hawks for a season...back in the dark ages

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03-12-2013, 02:40 AM
  #347
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Thoughts on my 3rd line of:

Mike Richards-Jean Ratelle-Danny Gare

My thought was that it can sort of function the way his NYR line did in real. Of course, Mike Richards is nowhere close to Rod Gilbert, but both Richards and Gare are easily much better than Vic Hadfield(who should be in the MLD if you ask me). Gare and Richards are more than willing to fight and stick up for their teammates if anyone tries to mess with Ratelle. Neither is a heavyweight, as both are more tough middleweights, but I think it should be fine. Gare is the shooter, and Richards is there to supply some supporting playmaking to take advantage of Ratelle's goal-scoring abilities.
Well, I agree with you that Hadfield was terrible, but then again, the GAG line as a whole struggled a lot in the playoffs, largely because it was too soft even with Hadfield. I don't know if Richards and Gare are enough muscle to protect Ratelle, to be honest, but it's all matchup-dependent. If you run into a team that will challenge your bottom lines with a violent defenseman like one of the Reds (Horner or Dutton) or a really physical 4th line, it could be an issue. I would strongly consider drafting a designated pugilist as a 4th liner or spare.

In terms of talent, Mike Richards is very underwhelming at even strength on an ATD third line. He's one of those players who is a bit stuck at this level in that a big part of his offensive value comes from what he's done on the powerplay, but he's not (yet) good enough to be on an ATD powerplay. Richards is still green, which wouldn't be such an issue on a 4th line, but on a 3rd line sticks out. Gare is a good third liner - good ES offense and gives you a solid all-around game. He and Ratelle should work together well. It's a very strong unit because of Ratelle, but it could have been scarier with a better left wing.

Quote:
Also, our special teams units are basically finished(have to draft one more PK forward as the 4th line RW), here they are:

PP1:Alexander Ovechkin-Cyclone Taylor-Kevin Stevens
Brad Park-Kevin Hatcher

PP2: Jean Ratelle-Joe Thornton-Joe Mullen
Scott Niedermayer-Mike Richards

PK1: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Bob Armstrong-Lionel Hitchman

PK2: Mike Richards-_____
Brad Park-Vitaly Davydov

PK3: Butch Goring-Gregg Sheppard
Lionel Hitchman-Scott Niedermayer
Hmmm...lots of options with that powerplay of yours. A few points:

- get Richards out of there. He'd be one of the worst PP pointmen in the draft, not because he lacks talent, but because he's only got four seasons thus far where he has done the job well.

- Hatcher was not actually that great a powerplay guy. Most of his offensive value comes at ES. He's a good 2nd unit powerplay QB, but I'm not in love with him on a top unit.

I'd run the powerplay like so:

Ovechkin - Thornton - Mullen
Park - Taylor

Stevens - Ratelle - Gare/Oatman
Niedermayer - Hatcher

I think that distributes your talent better. The RWs are relatively weak, but then again, that is a weakness of your team, in general. Overall, I think those units look good. If you could pick up a powerplay ringer as the 4th line RW (I know you're planning on a PK guy, but you could improve the PP with that pick, too), that might help things.

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03-12-2013, 02:45 AM
  #348
TheDevilMadeMe
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Ovechkin was used as a PP net presence by Russia in the Olympics... I don't know what that means here, but it's something.

Scott Niedermayer was usually on NJ's second PK pairing in real life. His softness hurt him more on the PK than at even strength, though he was good enough to deal with NHL-calibre second lines on the PK. Stevens and Daneyko played massive PK minutes together as the top PK pairing.

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03-12-2013, 03:04 PM
  #349
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CURRENTLY at Forward:

Smokey Harris - Gilbert Perreault - Cam Neely [A]
- Didin't know anything about Harris until I researched for my ATD debut this year. From what I can see he has all the earmarks of a true #1 LWer. Smooth, fast, scoring ability, strong with a bit of a mean streak and can backcheck. He has a championship pedigree, from what I am to understand, what was the premier league before the NHL got established.

- Perreault was a premier player in juniors and was quitely one of the best of his era. A great scorer and playmaker he had a Lady Byng as well as a number of top 15 places for the Hart. Despite being the #2 scoring center of his playing span, he had only 2 2nd team all-star placements in a small market city while going up against the likes of Dionne, Clarke, Esposito, Gretzky, Trottier, Ratelle, Mikita, Lemaire, Stastny, etc...

- Is there anyone more polarizing for their career since Dickie Duff than Cam Neely? I don't give a rats ass what anyone says, or whatever stats they want to throw at me, I watched Neely play on a consistent basis for his entire career and there weren't a lot of guys like him....period. There are other guys similar to him lauded for accomplishments on Cup teams but Neely never had the supporting cast that many of those guys had. I also think he was better defensively than what he's been given credit, often overlooked because of the emphasis and debate on his scoring and toughness as well as his intangibles and uber-hype for his HoF credentials.

- I think there is a fair amount of skill and chemistry that can be had here. Perreault can create space with his speed and creative skill, and dish off to a Neely on a trailer slap shot or pass to the slot from behind the net if he isn't able to finish himself. Harris has alleged breakaway speed, some grit for corner work, good stickhandling and a killer shot when given the opportunity...and defensively responsible for the other two, who actually weren't bad, Perreault in particular got better defensively later in his career. Neely will bang bodies and take care of Perreault if anyone goes cheap on him and given Harris rep for stick checking, with his speed and skating ability may create turnovers. I also plan to use my top defensive pairing on the ice for insurance when these guys are.

Brian Propp - Dave Poulin [A] - Tim Kerr
-Propp impressed me even more when I researched him. I know he was very good when he was a loaner for a Bruins Cup run. I really didn't know about his PK abilities and it just made him a more complete player with all the tools and skill for all three zones. A truly underrated player.

- I've already gotten grief for using Poulin as my 2nd line CTR but this was because I was able to put together this line, which had a very high peak for about 5 years. and because I don't have to use him on a PP unit I think this'll keep him fresh for ES as well as his stellar PK duties. I also didn't know about his locker room presence. He is stellar and speedy defensively, more than capable as the responsible one for this line.

- Kerr was more or less one-dimensional but man it was a killer dimension. He also started out as a center so he could be at least adequate if Poulin gets tossed on faceoffs. His goal/per game average is one of the best in the history of the game and if an opponent is foolish enough take too many penalties, Kerr alone will make them pay on the PP.

- As I've stated before, this is a classic case of gestalt. It is a known entity. There is skill, speed, power and on-ice awareness that is above average in every aspect.

Bob Pulford [A] - Ralph Backstrom - Claude Provost
- Pulford is a classic overachiever and with his skill set it makes him great in all areas of the ice. He's also another guy I didn't know that was a good locker room guy, for some reason all these years I though he was a quiet guy. He also has soem Hart Trophy votes, which in the O6 era, says alot given his role as a premier shadow.

- Backstrom was a scoring machine in juniors and pretty much was given a lot of latitude to do so, yet he was very coachable and team oriented enough to accept his role as a checking forward. Despite his role he made top 10 appearances in EV, PP and PK goals. He was also a tenacious player as Pulford. Only one season where he garnered a top 5 end of the year All Star voting, but had the respect of coaches around the league to play in 6 All-Star games.

- One of the premier checking forwards to ever play the game. It's been said the Selke was created to give Bob Gainey a platform to toot his horn, but even he has said that if it been around in Provost's day, he would've won it every year. Like Backstrom and Pulford he was talented offensively but was smart and selfless, giving up the glory for the better good of the team. He also had enough respect around the league to get him into 11 All-Star games. He was also a linemate of Backstrom's.

- There isn't a GM, on any level, in every era, at anytime that wouldn't salivate over having this as their 3rd, or even their 2nd line. Their abilities combined with their longevity would make this line legendary.....they were prominent in their respective team's successes, with a combined 19 Stanley Cups to prove it.

Brian Rolston - Tom Lysiak - Leo Labine
- Rolston is big but with speed, a good offensive skill set, defensive awareness, capabilities to play all three forward positions as well as the PK and a booming shot from the PP point. Not many negatives about this guy's game.

- Lysiak never lived up to the hype of his drafting but that doesn't diminish his skill or accomplishments. He could skate, stickhandle and score with the best of them, Boom Boom Geoffrion gave comparisons of him to both Beliveau and Perreault. He had a temper and an occasional lazy streak but he could play on both the PP and the PK and didn't back down from anyone.

- Labine was the Terry O'Reilly / Claude Lemieux / Brad Marchand of his day. He had some offensive skill, played well on both the PP and PK for a decent spell but was well known for rough play and chirping, often goading opponents into taking penalties.

- Will they mesh? No one really knows but given the same disparate abilities and temperament of the current Bruins 2nd line, it could work very well. Either way they will be playing less minutes than the other lines as they are basically an energy line with some special teams skills. Rolston will used on the first unit PP point. Lysiak on the 2nd unit PP CTR, playing the half wall or point in today's rotating PP schemes. Rolston and Lysiak are also both CTRs and play either wing with enough skill to be used as interchangeable parts for emergency fill-ins. While Labine is a bit of a loose cannon, he's also deft on the PK and is smart and devious enough to more often than not, take an opponent off the ice with him if he gets caught for his chippiness.

[spares....so far]
Reggie Fleming
- An old time hockey policeman/agitator/goon who can play both forward and defense and not hurt you at either spot....and was also good on the PK. Also known as a good teammate and team player. He will be used for those games where it could get a bit rough with some opponents, spot some players who may need a rest to recover from minor injuries or to shake-up any complacencies, should they arise.


Last edited by BubbaBoot: 03-12-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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03-12-2013, 06:42 PM
  #350
TheDevilMadeMe
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A couple of things, BB:

1) Smokey Harris's league wasn't the best in the world by itself - at the time, the best players were split between the NHA and Harris's PCHA. Harris does have an attractive all-round skill set, but I think he's more of a second line talent than a first line talent.

2) As for your second line, sure they're a known entity. But the West Coast Express is a known entity, and I don't think anyone would ever take their center and put him on a second line. Your second line really follows the scheme of the rest of your team - loaded with intangibles, but lacking offensive punch.

3) Your third line is awesome, I agree, though it's probably hyperbole to say Provost would win the Selke every year.

4) Rolston has a weakness in his game - he's soft as butter. I actually think he's a pretty weak even strength player at this level, but as a 4th line wing, it doesn't matter so much, and he does have a lot of value on both special teams.


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