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Old
03-10-2013, 02:49 PM
  #126
Sean Monahan
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I'd take Brayden Schenn over those picks easily

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03-10-2013, 03:34 PM
  #127
Shawnofthedeadz
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I disagree that it speeds up the rebuild as all we have done is eliminate our defense at the expense of our offense, so then we have to trade forwards for defensemen and we end up with a team of rookies.

And one of those pick is our pick this year and at this rate it could be a top 5 pick which has a greater than 50% of becoming an nhl player. As for the other 3 first rounders, sure they are not sure things but I have liked our drafting under Feaster so I would rather take that risk and try to build our team from within so we don't have to overpay every team and UFA to come. At some point we have to develop our own players we can't simply be trading for other teams players all the time.
Both Luke and Brayden were top 5 picks. Yes, maybe our first round pick might of been a bit excessive that's why I later corrected saying if we traded another asset on our team, say Tanguay and received a first round pick from it, we should deal that instead. Also, you are underrating Luke a lot. He has improved this year, is only 23 and can play in our top 4.

I would love this deal, but I'm unsure Philly would take it. While they improve in the short term, they will most likely be worse off in 4-5 years. It really depends if they want to be a contender now, or if they are willing to wait and hope they pick up an elite defensive prospect this year who pans out. (Or they make a good trade with someone else)

I only meant to show how we could trade for youth and still stay competitive. I really am against blowing a team up. I don't think it works.

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03-10-2013, 03:41 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Both Luke and Brayden were top 5 picks. Yes, maybe our first round pick might of been a bit excessive that's why I later corrected saying if we traded another asset on our team, say Tanguay and received a first round pick from it, we should deal that instead. Also, you are underrating Luke a lot. He has improved this year, is only 23 and can play in our top 4.

I would love this deal, but I'm unsure Philly would take it. While they improve in the short term, they will most likely be worse off in 4-5 years. It really depends if they want to be a contender now, or if they are willing to wait and hope they pick up an elite defensive prospect this year who pans out. (Or they make a good trade with someone else)

I only meant to show how we could trade for youth and still stay competitive. I really am against blowing a team up. I don't think it works.
I disagree
Wideman - Butler
Brodie - Schenn

is one of the worst top 4 defenses in the league.

Again Ottawa did a quick rebuild passed on past draft success we don't have that so we need to begin building that. I don't think trading for young talent is a bad idea and I don't think trading for picks is bad, but the best idea is doing both. We need a strong prospect to rebuild properly but we also shouldn't put all of our eggs in the drafting basket. I don't like your trade because it puts all of our eggs in the schenn's basket.

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03-10-2013, 03:49 PM
  #129
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Calgary needs to go full throttle true rebuild mold.
Starting with Drouin or Barkov.

If they trade Iginla maybe they can land both

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03-10-2013, 03:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Not this past offseason.

Calgary nabbed Hudler and Wideman.

Detroit got Brunner (who nobody else wanted, so he doesn't count as a "Detroit got him") and Samuelsson (who was likely not a priority for others and had already played here).

Detroit tried to get Suter, Parise, Salo, and Schultz on the market (that I know of), and Holland negotiated with Hudler before deciding (I've heard conflicting reports) that a) Hudler wasn't worth more cap than Franzen, or b) offering a maximum of $3.3m (term unspecified, possibly also a problem)

Personally, I'd rather have Hudler and Wideman than just Samuelsson. Hudler alone is better; Wideman would just be a bonus.






Detroit was also rejected by Vokoun when he left Florida for Washington.
Other teams wanted BrunneR but he wanted Detroit.

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03-10-2013, 03:55 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Personally I think the flames can be still competitive for the next two years or until we see a large drop in Iginla skill set. We are not there yet, so I say we rebuild in two ish years.

Also, I don't think we should trade Iginla. In my eyes a superstar playing on one team for your entire career is far more noteworthy than winning a Stanley Cup. Every year 20-23 players win the Stanley cup. Only a couple of superstars every decade finish on the team they started playing for.

Another reason I don't think we should trade Iginla is because he is our leader, our heart and soul. There is no other player I would rather have introducing our young players to the game. When he isn't leading the team on the ice, he leads the team off the ice. Flames have commented many times on Iginla's huge commitment to personal fitness. He is just a hard worker and I feel young players need to understand hard work is key to becoming successful in the NHL. Plus he does so much in the community. There is no greater flame.

Honestly I hate it when people say we should rebuild like Edmonton. Their team has not even been close to competitive for how many years? I find people put way to much in the draft at the moment. We shouldn't be looking up towards that, as our future. We should either try to follow in the steps of Detorit, or even Ottawa. Both have stayed very competitive and neither of them have done this "rebuild" everyone is high on. Great players don't have to be number 1 picks. If you look at Detroit, how many of their top players are first round picks? 2 Cleary and kronwall.

I'm just so frustrated at all this rebuilding talk. I don't want to be a team like the oilers, if I did I would watch them!
Then how about rebuild like Chicago or Pittsburg

Kane, Toews, Sid, Malkin all high picks

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03-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Stewie Griffin View Post
Steve Yzerman paled on some really drastically bad teams.

Also, where was he drafted again? 4th overall?
Dont forget Fedorov

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03-10-2013, 04:17 PM
  #133
Shawnofthedeadz
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I disagree
Wideman - Butler
Brodie - Schenn

is one of the worst top 4 defenses in the league.

Again Ottawa did a quick rebuild passed on past draft success we don't have that so we need to begin building that. I don't think trading for young talent is a bad idea and I don't think trading for picks is bad, but the best idea is doing both. We need a strong prospect to rebuild properly but we also shouldn't put all of our eggs in the drafting basket. I don't like your trade because it puts all of our eggs in the schenn's basket.
Understandable, we both have different values on Luke Schenn and I am personally very high on Brodie. I think he has been our best defenceman at times, has shown the potential to be very good, and I can see him as a young Yandle.

I also agree, making a trade like that is riskier than trading individually but it is still less riskier than drafting everything. But I don't agree on the Ottawa rebuild, the only stand out they had drafted was Karlsson and he even took 3 seasons to breakout. Then again, Karlsson is a 15th round pick and became a Norris winner and changed the complete complexion of the Senators.

So I think we should still do the Schenn trade if somehow we could keep our first pick. But like others have pointed out, it is highly unlikely Philly would want to take part of this trade . I was just using it as an example to back up my previous point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Then how about rebuild like Chicago or Pittsburg

Kane, Toews, Sid, Malkin all high picks
If I'm correct Pittsburgh did not trade Lemieux? The face of their franchise at the time. I even believe he played with Crosby for a season which helped in his development. I might be wrong though... I'm not saying the flames shouldn't rebuild. I'm saying the Flames shouldn't trade Iginla as part of this rebuild.

Edit: When I mean "rebuild" in my previous post, I mean blow it up, hence the Oilers reference. I apologise for using rebuild in two different contexts. That's why I said we should "Rebuild" like Ottawa or Detroit. Once again, I apologise for my poor grammatical continuity of my previous post.


Last edited by Shawnofthedeadz: 03-10-2013 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Explaining usage of terms
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Old
03-10-2013, 04:35 PM
  #134
TheHudlinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Understandable, we both have different values on Luke Schenn and I am personally very high on Brodie. I think he has been our best defenceman at times, has shown the potential to be very good, and I can see him as a young Yandle.

I also agree, making a trade like that is riskier than trading individually but it is still less riskier than drafting everything. But I don't agree on the Ottawa rebuild, the only stand out they had drafted was Karlsson and he even took 3 seasons to breakout. Then again, Karlsson is a 15th round pick and became a Norris winner and changed the complete complexion of the Senators.
In terms of last year Karlsson was the biggest reason as was the Anderson trade. But the fact they have been this good this year is 100% from drafting. Look at the nhlers that have been playing a big part.
2006-Foligno(28th), Daugavins(91), Condra(211),
2008-Karlsson(15th), Wiercioch(42), Smith(79)
2009-Cowen(9th), Silfverberg(39), Lehner(42)
2011-Zibanejad(6th)

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Old
03-10-2013, 04:51 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In terms of last year Karlsson was the biggest reason as was the Anderson trade. But the fact they have been this good this year is 100% from drafting. Look at the nhlers that have been playing a big part.
2006-Foligno(28th), Daugavins(91), Condra(211),
2008-Karlsson(15th), Wiercioch(42), Smith(79)
2009-Cowen(9th), Silfverberg(39), Lehner(42)
2011-Zibanejad(6th)
Wow thats quite stellar, many high 2nd's though.

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03-10-2013, 04:53 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
If I'm correct Pittsburgh did not trade Lemieux? The face of their franchise at the time. I even believe he played with Crosby for a season which helped in his development. I might be wrong though... I'm not saying the flames shouldn't rebuild. I'm saying the Flames shouldn't trade Iginla as part of this rebuild.
Don't want to trade Iginla? Fine, then he walks as a UFA.

There's a reason why there have been no contract negotiations between Iginla and the Flames. The writing's on the wall, whether you accept it or not.

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03-10-2013, 05:03 PM
  #137
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Wow thats quite stellar, many high 2nd's though.
Makes you think about all the seconds we have been throwing around.

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Old
03-10-2013, 05:09 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Then how about rebuild like Chicago or Pittsburg

Kane, Toews, Sid, Malkin all high picks
you do realize the Blackhawks rebuild was a decade in the making right? They finally turned it around because they were bad at the right time and started drafting better (Seabrook, Keith)

Pittsburgh got lucky with Crosby since they won the lotto (literally) and they sold all their assets for pretty much nothing to draft Malkin. The Penguins are a disgusting excuse for a professional sports team because of their willingness to lose on purpose and throw a season for a draft pick. If the Flames followed that model I would quit watching them.

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03-10-2013, 05:18 PM
  #139
Shawnofthedeadz
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In terms of last year Karlsson was the biggest reason as was the Anderson trade. But the fact they have been this good this year is 100% from drafting. Look at the nhlers that have been playing a big part.
2006-Foligno(28th), Daugavins(91), Condra(211),
2008-Karlsson(15th), Wiercioch(42), Smith(79)
2009-Cowen(9th), Silfverberg(39), Lehner(42)
2011-Zibanejad(6th)
Very true, they have been better than us but our drafting hasn't been that terrible.

2007 - Backlund (24th)
2008 - Bouma (78), Brodie (114)
2009 - Erixon (23),
2011 - Baertschi (13th), Grandlund (45), Gaudreau (104) <--- (Still early to tell if our 2011 draft was any good but I am really excited about Gaudreau. He really rocked in the 2013 WJC, and was named the tournament all star. I really hope he continues to blossom)

Okay... so our drafting has been bad but if we draft smart this year we shouldn't be to far behind where Ottawa was last season in terms of prospects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Don't want to trade Iginla? Fine, then he walks as a UFA.

There's a reason why there have been no contract negotiations between Iginla and the Flames. The writing's on the wall, whether you accept it or not.
Highly doubt he walks, Iginla has stated and knowing him, he would never do anything that would hurt the franchise. I feel he is leaving the option to be traded as a rental if the organization chooses it. If management chooses that they would rather keep Iginla a flame for life, they will not trade him at the deadline and I bet you he will re-sign immediately afterwards. If they were to discuss and sign a contract now it would only remove the possibility of Iginla being a rental. The only problem with Iginla being a rental is that they risk him choosing not to come back. So it is in no parties interest to sign a contract before the trade deadline and that is why there has been no contract talks.

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03-10-2013, 05:35 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
Very true, they have been better than us but our drafting hasn't been that terrible.

2007 - Backlund (24th)
2008 - Bouma (78), Brodie (114)
2009 - Erixon (23),
2011 - Baertschi (13th), Grandlund (45), Gaudreau (104) <--- (Still early to tell if our 2011 draft was any good but I am really excited about Gaudreau. He really rocked in the 2013 WJC, and was named the tournament all star. I really hope he continues to blossom)

Okay... so our drafting has been bad but if we draft smart this year we shouldn't be to far behind where Ottawa was last season in terms of prospects.
I agree that ours is starting to look better (why I want more picks for these scouts) but I think trading the vast majority of our assets for the Schenn's is a mistake. B.Schenn will be a great center most likely a #1 and would be a huge help but there are several centermen in this draft with the same ceiling, L.Schenn is a solid top 4 defensemen but I doubt he is ever better then Gio and I think we can find a defensemen of similar ability in this draft.

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03-10-2013, 06:52 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I agree that ours is starting to look better (why I want more picks for these scouts) but I think trading the vast majority of our assets for the Schenn's is a mistake. B.Schenn will be a great center most likely a #1 and would be a huge help but there are several centermen in this draft with the same ceiling, L.Schenn is a solid top 4 defensemen but I doubt he is ever better then Gio and I think we can find a defensemen of similar ability in this draft.
The way Gio's played this year, his play could be replaced within probably.
Hell, Butler was playing better on the top pair last year than Gio's been this year.

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03-10-2013, 06:55 PM
  #142
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The way Gio's played this year, his play could be replaced within probably.
Hell, Butler was playing better on the top pair last year than Gio's been this year.
Thats fair

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:41 PM
  #143
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I really hope the Flames finish last and get at least a top 3 pick this year.

They are incapable of betting a contender even if they fluke out and make the playoff.

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03-11-2013, 02:19 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Calgary needs to go full throttle true rebuild mold.
Starting with Drouin or Barkov.

If they trade Iginla maybe they can land both
How?

Assuming we get the 3rd overall pick with ours, how are you going to get the 4th?

Iginla isnt worth a 4th overall pick, not close, and a team that is drafting 4th overall isnt looking for an Old winger...

The only way we get 2 top 5 picks is if Feaster literally sells everything, and trades that lump for a top 5 pick.

IMO it would take 2 1st round picks in the top 15 to get close to a top 5, even then its probably not close enough.

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03-11-2013, 02:42 PM
  #145
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How?

Assuming we get the 3rd overall pick with ours, how are you going to get the 4th?

Iginla isnt worth a 4th overall pick, not close, and a team that is drafting 4th overall isnt looking for an Old winger...

The only way we get 2 top 5 picks is if Feaster literally sells everything, and trades that lump for a top 5 pick.

IMO it would take 2 1st round picks in the top 15 to get close to a top 5, even then its probably not close enough.
Agreed, but while we are on the topic, lets say hes moved to...I dunno Boston, and it ends up around 25th.

Bostons 1st + Giordano could MAYBE get us the 5th or 6th pick if its the right team. Highly unlikely though.

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03-11-2013, 10:46 PM
  #146
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It's an untenable situation for everyone involved. Everything with this franchise still revolves around Iginla, which is dumb, because he isn't putting the team on his back anymore, and he won't net a king's return. Iginla wants to win, the Flames aren't going to win. Iginla won't ask for a trade. The Flames won't trade him. He has to decide what to do before april 3rd. Or not. If Iggy wants to re-sign, they aren't rebuilding. If they are out of it by april and they want to jettison assets, Iginla won't want to stay. They won't trade solely Iginla, that would be counterproductive.
Basically they have to trade everyone or no one. And it will likely be no one.

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03-12-2013, 01:33 AM
  #147
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It's an untenable situation for everyone involved. Everything with this franchise still revolves around Iginla, which is dumb, because he isn't putting the team on his back anymore, and he won't net a king's return. Iginla wants to win, the Flames aren't going to win. Iginla won't ask for a trade. The Flames won't trade him. He has to decide what to do before april 3rd. Or not. If Iggy wants to re-sign, they aren't rebuilding. If they are out of it by april and they want to jettison assets, Iginla won't want to stay. They won't trade solely Iginla, that would be counterproductive.
Basically they have to trade everyone or no one. And it will likely be no one.
I don't understand why everyone thinks to rebuild you need to trade away your franchise player. Pittsburgh did not trade Lemuix, Phoenix did not trade Doan, and Ottawa did not trade Alfredsson. I hate this mentality of trade everything or nothing. That is a stupid way to go about the rebuilding process. Just go ask our neighbours up in Edmonton. As I've explained multiple times on this forum there is a great benefit to keeping Jarome around during the rebuild process. Also, through a good rebuild we can become competitive in 1-2 seasons. That still gives Iginla a couple of years to win the cup with us. If we completely blow everything up, we will be stuck being crap just like Edmonton for 5-6+ years.

Also, many teams would be more than willing to pay Iginla an 8+ million contract or trade valuable assets for him. His value is still just as high as it has been for the last couple of seasons. Just look at how popular Doan was this off season.

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03-12-2013, 01:56 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I don't understand why everyone thinks to rebuild you need to trade away your franchise player. Pittsburgh did not trade Lemuix, Phoenix did not trade Doan, and Ottawa did not trade Alfredsson. I hate this mentality of trade everything or nothing. That is a stupid way to go about the rebuilding process. Just go ask our neighbours up in Edmonton. As I've explained multiple times on this forum there is a great benefit to keeping Jarome around during the rebuild process. Also, through a good rebuild we can become competitive in 1-2 seasons. That still gives Iginla a couple of years to win the cup with us. If we completely blow everything up, we will be stuck being crap just like Edmonton for 5-6+ years.

Also, many teams would be more than willing to pay Iginla an 8+ million contract or trade valuable assets for him. His value is still just as high as it has been for the last couple of seasons. Just look at how popular Doan was this off season.
Point of contention - Lemieux was part owner of the Penguins, had a NTC, and wasn't going to waive it for any reason. And being an owner of one franchise but playing for another one would have raised all sorts of conflict of interest issues.

Doan has a NTC and has made it clear, he won't waive under any circumstances. Even if the team relocates, he's not waiving it.

Finally, if you've been paying attention to the NHL recently, there has been some talk about the Sens moving Alfredsson, if he so chooses. Again, the matter is entirely up to him, since he as a NTC and will reportedly, only waive for the Bruins.

Simply put, it's entirely feasible to rebuild and at the same time keep Iginla. However, it's entirely impossible to do so if Iginla isn't inclined to sign a contract extension. Which is the case at the moment. It's very easy to suggest the Flames keep Iginla, but if he doesn't want to stick around for the rebuild?

Also, it's impossible for the Flames to a) keep Iginla and b) pull off a 1-2 year rebuild. You realize that to speed up the rebuild process, you need assets. Assets which can only be brought in by trading away players like Iginla, Giordano, Kipper, etc. The Flames simply do not have the prospect base to be competitive any time soon.

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03-12-2013, 02:12 AM
  #149
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I hope the flames start a rebuild personally. Not an oilers, get 3 number 1 picks rebuild but trade all the vets and bring in young ready nhl prospects and a few picks here and there.
Honestly I'm getting bored of watching this same old team and I think it would be refreshing and fun thing to watch some young kids play for a change.

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03-12-2013, 02:59 AM
  #150
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I hope the flames start a rebuild personally. Not an oilers, get 3 number 1 picks rebuild but trade all the vets and bring in young ready nhl prospects and a few picks here and there.
Honestly I'm getting bored of watching this same old team and I think it would be refreshing and fun thing to watch some young kids play for a change.
Jones, Reinhart, McDavid.....

All kidding aside, I agree with you.

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