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Who's the Canes' MVP at the halfway point

View Poll Results: Who's the Canes' MVP at the halfway point
Eric Staal 36 40.45%
Alexander Semin 47 52.81%
Jiri Tlusty 4 4.49%
Jeff Skinner 0 0%
Other 2 2.25%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:09 AM
  #51
NorthStar4Canes
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Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Anton View Post
Because it isn't about any 'quantity'. League MVPs tend to be based on that, because how else do you choose between players on different teams?

Team MVPs, however, can (not always) be based on how important a player is to a team's success. It doesn't have to be about numbers, or flash. There are ways to contribute other than on the scoresheet. A player that some may consider a scrub that doesn't score much or do anything fancy could be a team MVP because they are a player that can always be counted on to do the little things the team needs to win.

To me, Ellis has made a huge difference for the Canes this season. He hasn't played as much as Ward, but he has helped hold the team together when they needed him to. In the beginning, Ward completely sucked and was not ready to start the season. The team leaned on Ellis to help as Ward worked his way back into playing condition. Now the same with Ward out injured.

No, he hasn't won anything like a Cup, or any trophies, but again where would the Canes be without Ellis? They could have collapsed at the start of the season and already be looking forward to only a top draft pick at this point. When Ward went down, the team could have just given up and written off the rest of the season. Instead the team has continued to play at the same level they did before. Some might even argue better.

It's not much different than arguing that Semin would be MVP over Staal because he makes Staal a better player. Well, that's for one line. Ellis has made the entire team better.

Now, I'm sure many here will disagree with me, but to each their own. I think that's part of why the team is as successful as it is so far that there are several different players being talked about as being the MVP so far.
Hey, who let the Logic in here? Out! Out!

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:24 AM
  #52
Anton Dubinchuk
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I get the sentiment, I truly do, but I think people are mixing up team MVP with "pleasant surprise" MVP.

Fact of the matter is, this team wins more games if Ellis is out of the lineup in every game this year than if Eric Staal is out of the lineup in every game this year. In that sense, Staal has been more valuable to this team this year.

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:44 AM
  #53
Mr Whipple
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Nope. Not just a pleasant surprise at all.

We lose Eric, and we've got Semin, Jordan, Tlusty, Skinner, Jokinen, etc. Yes, it will hurt, a lot, but the season isn't necessarily over.

We take Ellis out of the equation, with Ward injured, and what do we have?

A player that keeps the team in the hunt, in what many consider to be the most important position in hockey, and behind the defense we've got and without whom the only thing we'd be gunning for the 1st overall isn't just a 'pleasant surprise'. That's the MVP.

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:51 AM
  #54
Anton Dubinchuk
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Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Anton View Post
Nope. Not just a pleasant surprise at all.

We lose Eric, and we've got Semin, Jordan, Tlusty, Skinner, Jokinen, etc. Yes, it will hurt, a lot, but the season isn't necessarily over.

We take Ellis out of the equation, with Ward injured, and what do we have?

A player that keeps the team in the hunt, in what many consider to be the most important position in hockey, and behind the defense we've got and without whom the only thing we'd be gunning for the 1st overall isn't just a 'pleasant surprise'. That's the MVP.
We've still got Ward starting the majority of the first twenty games of the season, and Justin Peters starting the last two. Again, this is for the first half of the season, Ward's been gone like 3 games.

Our lines without Eric:

Tlusty - Staal - Semin
Skinner - Jokinen - Dwyer
Bowman - Nash - Wallace
Westgarth - Brent - Larose

I mean that is a truly putrid lineup, worse than the one's we've iced in the last several years.

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03-12-2013, 01:34 AM
  #55
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I guess it depends on your understanding of the initial OP.

If it's "Most Valuable Player", up to this point in the season (or the midway point), then it'd be Staal or Semin. It can't be Ellis, simply because Ellis hardly played for a good portion of the first half of the season. And as well as he's played lately, Peters also played well lately. There's no telling how this team could have performed with Peters instead of Ellis as the backup going into the season.

Now, if we're interpreting the initial OP as who someone believes is the current MVP, and should nothing else change for the rest of the season, will end the season as MVP, then it's Ellis. Simply because he's got to be our most valuable player if this team is to make the playoffs.

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Old
03-12-2013, 01:59 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
We've still got Ward starting the majority of the first twenty games of the season, and Justin Peters starting the last two. Again, this is for the first half of the season, Ward's been gone like 3 games.

Our lines without Eric:

Tlusty - Staal - Semin
Skinner - Jokinen - Dwyer
Bowman - Nash - Wallace
Westgarth - Brent - Larose

I mean that is a truly putrid lineup, worse than the one's we've iced in the last several years.
Following that logic, what if there were no Justin Faulk?

Gleason-McBain
Harrison-Corvo
Sanguinetti-Jordan

yeah. Based on that Faulk is definitely the MVP.

In seriousness, you can't base it on "what if that guy wasn't there."

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03-12-2013, 02:17 AM
  #57
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I actually thought about putting Ellis in the fourth poll spot, but decided he hadn't played enough. Honestly, talking purely about most valuable, there should only be two guys in the conversation and I think we all know that. Ellis has done an admirable job as a fill-in, but that's the backup goalie's job. I know it's hard for us to accept that, because we're not used to the Canes having a quality backup, but what Ellis has done to this point in the season -- while noteworthy -- is not all that spectacular. If it had been Peters instead of Ellis, I'm not sure we're a whole lot worse off. As much as I like the guy and am glad he's here, he's a clear No. 4 behind the entire first line, IMO.

As for the main debate, it seems fairly split, and that's probably as it should be. Both Staal and Semin are having fantastic seasons. You'd expect the center to have more points, simply based on being more involved in every play from the faceoff, and Semin could easily have four or five more goals based on his unlucky shooting percentage, which becomes even more amazing when you realize it doesn't even account for the unbelievable number of posts he's hit (at least 6-10) this season.

I just think there's a joy in Eric Staal's game that hasn't been there for a long time. Semin has to get a lot of credit for that, so I give him the tiebreaker for that reason. For now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
In seriousness, you can't base it on "what if that guy wasn't there."
You're right. You can't just remove a guy like he doesn't exist. But what you can do is compare him to an average replacement (or even the next guy in line), which is where I think the case for Ellis falls apart. If you replace Ellis with Peters, or the average, nameless replacement backup goalie, how much worse are we? Probably not a whole lot.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:21 AM
  #58
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If Corey Perry can win the Hart on the basis of unsustainable shooting percentages and lots of pretty goals, I see no reason why Tlusty shouldn't win this online poll.

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03-12-2013, 04:34 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
I see Semin as rather Datsyukian. Sky high talent level, does lots of little things well, SUPER, SUPER valuable player (and I voted for him in the poll), but not the guy you build a franchise around. He's not a dominating player. What he DOES do is set your marquee players up to dominate. His skill opens up the ice and lets the other guys do their thing.
Your post is almost by nature, the definition of MVP, which was the question. Semin!

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03-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #60
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I've decided to split my vote among co-MVP's--Jamie McBain and Jeff Skinner. Simple stats--the record without McBain is much worse without him than with him (because correlation equals causation) and more seriously--without Skinner, this team just doesn't have enough offense to keep the team chugging along. Staal, Tlusty and Semin are awesome, but when Skinner is out, all of the opposing team's focus is rightfully on stopping one line. If they can stop that one line, then they win and win easily. However, if Skinner is on the ice, the focus is divided and all of the lines have more room to play due to the other team having to match lines up and down the roster. Now, if Skinner can mature a bit, I will consider giving him the outright title.

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Old
03-12-2013, 01:07 PM
  #61
Anton Dubinchuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Following that logic, what if there were no Justin Faulk?

Gleason-McBain
Harrison-Corvo
Sanguinetti-Jordan

yeah. Based on that Faulk is definitely the MVP.

In seriousness, you can't base it on "what if that guy wasn't there."
You absolutely can. Baseball has WAR, and takes that into large consideration when picking the MVP.

I'd rather have not had Faulk all season than not have Staal all season. It's a valid way to decide that. Throw in that once again, Staals top 10 in the league in points, and it's an easy choice in my mind.

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03-12-2013, 01:56 PM
  #62
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I think without a doubt it is Semin. Staal and the first line seem so good because of how much Semin creates. Funny how some people think Staal is MVP cause he has more goals than Semin...

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03-12-2013, 01:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AirHornManifesto View Post
I think without a doubt it is Semin. Staal and the first line seem so good because of how much Semin creates. Funny how some people think Staal is MVP cause he has more goals than Semin...
And more points, and plays more in the PK, has more defensive responsibilities, and takes and wins faceoffs. None of those things are valuable though.

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03-12-2013, 02:13 PM
  #64
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home


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03-12-2013, 02:50 PM
  #65
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from an advanced stats picture, Jordan Staal and Jeff Skinner have been a dominant two-way line that allows Eric and Semin to produce.

Jokinen has been very impressive in terms of possession numbers (and unlucky in terms of on-ice shooting percentage). He's played as important a role as J. Staal without the production. I also shudder to think of what would happen if we lost Faulk or Gleason (again) for any length of time. Dwyer has been an excellent two-way player. Pitkanen was really good in his 13 games.

So those guys are all extremely valuable players. In terms of games played and production though, Jordan Staal gets the edge.

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03-12-2013, 02:55 PM
  #66
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Hands down Alex Semin

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03-12-2013, 03:45 PM
  #67
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There has been a suspicious increase in Staal votes as of late. Is Eric paying off members to vote for him? Is his jealousy so intense that it has now reached HFBoards?

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03-12-2013, 04:03 PM
  #68
DaveG
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Can't go with an entire line, so going with Staal by just a hair. Easily could have gone with Semin instead here. The chemistry with Tlusty and Semin is undeniable which makes this such a hard pick. The three feed off eachother so well it's not even funny, I honestly can't remember the last time we've had a line like this. But what makes me lean Staal is that he's carried over and improved his play from the back half of last season in a big way and improved that. Semin plays a big part in that as well, but Staal has made some solid defensive plays in his own right, has been exceptional in generating the cycle throughout the season due to his presence down low (though it helps to have linemates that actually know what the **** they're doing in Tlusty and Semin) and he's been among the best 3 zone players in the league this season.

It's going to be interesting to see if it keeps up, but if I had to guess it's going to be Crosby winning the Hart, but I would think Staal will come in somewhere between #2 and 4 in the vote and there's a very good chance he comes in #2 as of right now. Kane and Getzlaf are the only other two serious candidates there. One thing I will say though is that it will be an absolute joke if Semin doesn't get some Selke recognition (top 20) given his play this year. It's no coincidence that he's where he is in +/- over the last 5 seasons, especially given that he hasn't played top line time with top line talent in Washington over that time frame.

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03-12-2013, 04:19 PM
  #69
Anton Dubinchuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post
There has been a suspicious increase in Staal votes as of late. Is Eric paying off members to vote for him? Is his jealousy so intense that it has now reached HFBoards?
I get that this is a joke, but I'd like to think that it's because of my awesome argument and people read it and subsequently realize they're wrong in voting for anyone else.

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03-12-2013, 04:21 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
I get that this is a joke, but I'd like to think that it's because of my awesome argument and people read it and subsequently realize they're wrong in voting for anyone else.
No, it's because of MY argument. I am rite and you are wrong. You know nothing about hockey. Erik Cole will be traded for Joe Corvo.

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03-12-2013, 04:31 PM
  #71
semin4captain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
I get that this is a joke, but I'd like to think that it's because of my awesome argument and people read it and subsequently realize they're wrong in voting for anyone else.
Well that wouldn't make much sense, seeing as how wrong you were. I'm going with my theory.

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03-12-2013, 09:19 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Made Punk View Post
It's Eric Staal, and it's not even close.
CM Punk is bang on.

Staal is lifting Semin as much as the other way around. For evidence, see Semin's last season in Wash. Better yet, don't.

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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
I honestly can't remember the last time we've had a line like this.
Three letters: B B C

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03-12-2013, 09:58 PM
  #73
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Even the BBC wasn't this good, and that line gave Montreal and New Jersey fits in the 02 playoffs. This line has been almost French Connection or Triple Crown line good.

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03-12-2013, 10:00 PM
  #74
MovesLikeJagr
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Staal or Semin, Ellis has been a good suprise, but I wouldn't consider him on this poll until he starts more while ward is out.

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03-12-2013, 10:37 PM
  #75
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I have probably watched about 15 Carolina games this season (Very difficult waking up early ) but I voted Syomin.

Both Staal and Syomin complement one another, however it is fairly obvious Syomin's game has been very special for Carolina this season, everywhere on the ice. He also takes the pressure off Staal. Staal does not have to feel obligated to produce/carry the team as he has another elite player on his line. It works for both of them as they seem to be feeding off one another. It is actually enjoyable to watch.

Funnily enough I think we have yet to see the best from Syomin this season. He has not had his true streaky goal scoring yet. Syomin's goal scoring has been poor this season, he has hit the post on so many occasions, it is definitely in the double digits he usually averages around 0.4 Goals per game. This season it is 0.28. With the way he is playing I think we should expect to see some heavy scoring sometime this season.

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