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2013: Finally putting to bed the idea that the Pens draft poorly.

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Old
03-12-2013, 01:47 AM
  #26
Crafton
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i tried dipping my toe in the water but quickly got tired. here's my inconsequential contribution:

2006
2.32 Carl Sneep | 2.34 Michal Neuvirth, 2.36 Jamie McGinn, 2.43 Riley Holzapfel, 2.44 Nikolai Kulemin

then again what good is drafting McGinn if you're going to trade him for TJ Galiardi and Daniel Winnik and then let Winnik walk. brutal trade.


Last edited by Crafton: 03-12-2013 at 01:54 AM.
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03-12-2013, 01:53 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crafton View Post
i tried dipping my toe in the water but quickly got tired. here's my inconsequential contribution:

2006
2.32 Carl Sneep | 2.34 Michal Neuvirth, 2.36 Jamie McGinn, 2.43 Riley Holzapfel, 2.44 Nikolai Kulemin
That second round actually churned out a lot of guys that made or are still comfortably in the show. Most notably is Lucic. But in addition to what you said, there was also Cory Emmerton, Andreas Nodl, Shawn Matthias, Artem Anisimov, Blake Geoffrion, Mike Weber, and Jamie McBain. Hindsight being 20/20 of course.

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03-12-2013, 02:55 AM
  #28
Big McLargehuge
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Brendan Smith is a stud.
Potential stud. At 24 he's scored at the exact rate that Eric Tangradi has (1 goal every 29 games...Smith has 1 in 29 career games and Tangradi has 2 in 58) and you can't get much closer than them in age (Tangradi is 2 days younger than Smith).

The difference between Red Wings prospects and Penguins prospects is that they don't expect everyone they draft to have an influence within two years of being drafted like this place does. Smith would have been run out of Pittsburgh just as Tangradi was.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Crafton View Post
i tried dipping my toe in the water but quickly got tired. here's my inconsequential contribution:

2006
2.32 Carl Sneep | 2.34 Michal Neuvirth, 2.36 Jamie McGinn, 2.43 Riley Holzapfel, 2.44 Nikolai Kulemin

then again what good is drafting McGinn if you're going to trade him for TJ Galiardi and Daniel Winnik and then let Winnik walk. brutal trade.
Call me crazy...but I still don't hate the Sneep pick. Yeah he was a bit off the board, yeah he regressed in the minors, yeah he's the definition of a draft bust...but he was a Chuck Grillo guy and Grillo deserves a pass for all of the Minnesota guys he nabbed for us. Area scouts tend to be anonymous, but any Penguins fan knew Grillo's name because the guy got a pick in every-other-draft or so for a decade and a disproporionate amount of those picks wound up having great value, despite none of them being slam dunks. I don't think I need to remind anyone about how off-the-board that Goligoski pick was...or the rewards it has reaped for us. That was all Grillo.

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:25 AM
  #29
Hans Rutherford
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I am not sure many ever said that Shero drafted poorly. At least I never did. I said the opposite actually. The concern is the concentration on defense, especially last draft not taking Forsberg when available. You can not argue with taking the best player available at pick 27-30. But 8th overall there definately were other directions you could go than defense yet again.

Had Shero taken Forsberg with that pick I am sure people would have been very happy with his drafting overall.
I feel like this myth needs called out some. Sure Shero loves his defensemen. But it took him up to his fourth draft to finally use his first pick on one, which was Despres and even then everyone still flipped out while Lovejoy was our best defensive prospect. And the next draft he used his first four picks on forwards. If Shero loved defensemen as much as you seem to imply, he definitely would have went with Tinordi or Pysyk. But he saw the value in Bennett's skills and vision, and then everyone on here still flipped out because he rolled the dice with him because he was a smallish player coming out of the BCHL. There's definitely something Shero sees with his early picks.

If Shero was striking out with some of his picks on defense in the first round, then maybe I'd be a little concerned. But he's been striking gold there and then some. He won't but he can spend all of his first round picks on defense and I won't care.

And everyone needs to stop bringing up Forsberg for crying out loud. Even Winnipeg and Tampa decided to go with defense over him. And is he even playing in the SEL? Let me know when he starts tearing up the NHL, and then we can discuss what a mistake it was not to pick him.

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03-12-2013, 05:53 AM
  #30
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Some folks just can't ever admit to being wrong. They find any way they can to justify their position-but it never stops smelling like turd to the rest of us....
He isnt wrong, Despres was routinely mocked and projected to be a mid to early first round pick and was compared to Bouwmeester back when people thought he was good. He was never expected to fall to the penguins and when he was people like myself were very happy with the pick value wise despite at the time not having a need for a Dman but needing wingers instead (notice a trend).

What frustrates me the most with Shero and his drafting is his playing it safe with forward picks. What that ends up is getting a whole lot of "useful" NHL'ers instead of stars. That might sound good to some but those useful NHL'ers are had via the waiver wires and next to the league minimum every free agency period. They're effectively a dime-a-dozen and those stars that we're just not getting are much much harder to obtain after the fact. If we want one via free agency we will have to break the bank for them, if we want to trade for them we're going to have to throw most of the farm at the team for him. Passing on Forsberg after he fell into our laps much in the same way Despres did angered a lot of people, myself included.

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03-12-2013, 06:48 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by EatonBabies View Post
I feel like this myth needs called out some. Sure Shero loves his defensemen. But it took him up to his fourth draft to finally use his first pick on one, which was Despres and even then everyone still flipped out while Lovejoy was our best defensive prospect. And the next draft he used his first four picks on forwards. If Shero loved defensemen as much as you seem to imply, he definitely would have went with Tinordi or Pysyk. But he saw the value in Bennett's skills and vision, and then everyone on here still flipped out because he rolled the dice with him because he was a smallish player coming out of the BCHL. There's definitely something Shero sees with his early picks.

If Shero was striking out with some of his picks on defense in the first round, then maybe I'd be a little concerned. But he's been striking gold there and then some. He won't but he can spend all of his first round picks on defense and I won't care.

And everyone needs to stop bringing up Forsberg for crying out loud. Even Winnipeg and Tampa decided to go with defense over him. And is he even playing in the SEL? Let me know when he starts tearing up the NHL, and then we can discuss what a mistake it was not to pick him.


with the exception of Bennett we dont have any notable forwards, we cant even replace tyler kennedy, we dont even have a goon type forward to replace tanner glass. on the other hand we could dress an entire D core.

Despres-Bortuzzo
Morrow-Pouliot
Harrington-Maatta
Dumoulin-Samuelsson

we even had enough we could lose a few, Lovejoy, Sneep, Strait

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03-12-2013, 07:00 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Potential stud. At 24 he's scored at the exact rate that Eric Tangradi has (1 goal every 29 games...Smith has 1 in 29 career games and Tangradi has 2 in 58) and you can't get much closer than them in age (Tangradi is 2 days younger than Smith).

The difference between Red Wings prospects and Penguins prospects is that they don't expect everyone they draft to have an influence within two years of being drafted like this place does. Smith would have been run out of Pittsburgh just as Tangradi was.
Smith is a defenseman. Sure he's a PMD, but why are you comparing his offensive production to Tangradi's? Not even close to an apples to apples comparison.

Have you ever seen him play?

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03-12-2013, 07:24 AM
  #33
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Smith is a defenseman. Sure he's a PMD, but why are you comparing his offensive production to Tangradi's? Not even close to an apples to apples comparison.

Have you ever seen him play?
Yeah I thought that was quite odd as well.

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Old
03-12-2013, 07:42 AM
  #34
IcedCapp
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draft arguments are always among my least favorite, across all sports.

It's so hard to know what's going on inside the room. Who did they want, did they try to trade, why did they draft player X.

After they draft a player, was he the most talented and just not coached properly. Did injuries occur? Did something else happen?

Then, it takes time, especially in hockey. You can't judge a draft that year or even the year after. 2 years seems to be the bare minimum to even consider judging a draft, especially if you're picking in the bottom-third of each round.

I would say that Shero's drafting ability is probably no worse than league average, people just aren't happy with the position he deems most valuable.

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03-12-2013, 07:48 AM
  #35
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So we all learned McPhee should be a scout, not a GM.

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03-12-2013, 07:57 AM
  #36
Hans Rutherford
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Originally Posted by GermanTitov View Post
with the exception of Bennett we dont have any notable forwards, we cant even replace tyler kennedy, we dont even have a goon type forward to replace tanner glass. on the other hand we could dress an entire D core.

Despres-Bortuzzo
Morrow-Pouliot
Harrington-Maatta
Dumoulin-Samuelsson

we even had enough we could lose a few, Lovejoy, Sneep, Strait
I know, we all do, but it's not like we haven't taken any shots at forwards. We've come close with some prospects but for whatever reason they fell through. I believe we're just cursed sometimes. I'm quietly holding out hope for a few prospects, but Sid's RW is really this teams only immediate need and Dupuis is doing an admirable job there for the time being. I think we have enough assets that we can make a trade to fill that role sometime soon.

But no one can say that this depth on D is isn't nice. We're set for years to come. And at least we're good at something regarding prospects.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:07 AM
  #37
Le Magnifique 66
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So we all learned McPhee should be a scout, not a GM.
Or that we should trade to acquire some of their amateur scouts instead of acquiring a winger!!!

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03-12-2013, 08:11 AM
  #38
Mr Jiggyfly
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I'm with you DD.

Too many people can't enjoy that for the first time in years, the Pens finally have two rookies making a big impact. It's early, but if Shero just landed a top four blueliner and a top six winger with late round picks, how the hell can people complain? Seriously?

Bort has the look of a solid bottom pairing guy, Morrow and Harrington I'm pretty sold on their chances of having an impact. DP and Maatta have a high pedigree and are being brought along by two of the finest org in jr hockey. Uher and Archibald have the look of high energy third liners. A lot of people I have talked to really like Blueger and think he has top six skills (haven't seen him play).

The only thing missing is more top end fwd prospects, but I'm still convinced Shero will rectify that this draft and moving fwd.

Shero has created a hell of a farm without the benefit of high picks and the team is just beginning to reap the benefits. He has built the best blueline farm in the league, bar none. He has accumulated a lot of potential solid depth players and his only legit top six fwd prospect is looking promising...

What is there to complain about?


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Old
03-12-2013, 08:11 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 View Post
Or that we should trade to acquire some of their amateur scouts instead of acquiring a winger!!!
Yes hire him to draft Fleury's replacement.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:12 AM
  #40
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Yes hire him to draft Fleury's replacement.
I wouldn't even draft a goalie to be honest, sign one off season or trade for one. You have to wait a good 3-4 years before they develop, not worth it IMO

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03-12-2013, 09:49 AM
  #41
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Given that home-grown dmen have recently been turned into Chris Kunitz, James Neal and Matt Niskanen through trade, I think we should all be happy with drafting for BPA.

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03-12-2013, 10:19 AM
  #42
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Not sure if we should give ourselves any credit for drafting Muzzin since we ended up not even signing him? If anything, that should count as a negative pick for us in this analysis. Same thing but to a slightly lesser degree with Strait. Drafting and developing pro-level players for other teams isn't something to really brag out.

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03-12-2013, 10:25 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Call me crazy...but I still don't hate the Sneep pick. Yeah he was a bit off the board, yeah he regressed in the minors, yeah he's the definition of a draft bust...but he was a Chuck Grillo guy and Grillo deserves a pass for all of the Minnesota guys he nabbed for us.
i don't think it's too crazy but it's a damn shame he didn't work out. a 6-3 blue-liner who was the only high school player to finish his season playing in the USHL playoffs, heading off to one of the best college programs in the country, has the makings of a decent pick...they could have easily just as well ended up with Riley Holzapfel, who is now in the system anyways. that's probably why i completely gave up on surveying the record - hindsight to easily clouds a judgement i'm not qualified to make in the first place.

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03-12-2013, 10:38 AM
  #44
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Not sure if we should give ourselves any credit for drafting Muzzin since we ended up not even signing him? If anything, that should count as a negative pick for us in this analysis. Same thing but to a slightly lesser degree with Strait. Drafting and developing pro-level players for other teams isn't something to really brag out.
Muzzin was a whooping -30 in the last year we had his rights. And we had Strait, Bortuzzo and Grant turning pro as well. We obviously should have taken a chance with him, but he was invited to other prospect and training camps and other teams skipped out on him too. It wasn't until he completely exploded offensively in his overage year that teams really took note of him. Not being signed must have really wakened him up. Shero saw something in him, unfortunately it didn't come out of him until it was too late.

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03-12-2013, 10:44 AM
  #45
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Given that home-grown dmen have recently been turned into Chris Kunitz, James Neal and Matt Niskanen through trade, I think we should all be happy with drafting for BPA.
Well, in keeping with the direction of the thread, none of those draft picks were made by Shero. The trades were, and they were great trades, but those Whitney and Goligoski picks were Patrick's.

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03-12-2013, 11:03 AM
  #46
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Well, in keeping with the direction of the thread, none of those draft picks were made by Shero. The trades were, and they were great trades, but those Whitney and Goligoski picks were Patrick's.
And we had people busting on CP drafting, but when you look back he hit a bad stretch in the mid to late 90s, then he did pretty damn well again and many of his picks were a big reason the Pens won the Cup... Scuds, Orpik, MAF, Talbot, Letang, and TK. Malone was a very good pick. He drafted Army who was used to land Hossa, GoGo who turned into Neal and Nisky and Whitney who turned into Kunitz. He even grabbed Vitale late in the '05 draft.

Moral of the story is, be patient and let Shero do his thing. We are already starting to see some of his guys make an impact and there should be a steady stream of his guys helping this team over the coming years.

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03-12-2013, 11:10 AM
  #47
IcedCapp
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And we had people busting on CP drafting, but when you look back he hit a bad stretch in the mid to late 90s, then he did pretty damn well again and many of his picks were a big reason the Pens won the Cup... Scuds, Orpik, MAF, Talbot, Letang, and TK. Malone was a very good pick. He drafted Army who was used to land Hossa, GoGo who turned into Neal and Nisky and Whitney who turned into Kunitz. He even grabbed Vitale late in the '05 draft.

Moral of the story is, be patient and let Shero do his thing. We are already starting to see some of his guys make an impact and there should be a steady stream of his guys helping this team over the coming years.
One other thing people need to keep in mind: sometimes drafts are just bad. There's no guarantee that there will be good players in a draft. It happens.

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Old
03-12-2013, 11:14 AM
  #48
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Well, in keeping with the direction of the thread, none of those draft picks were made by Shero. The trades were, and they were great trades, but those Whitney and Goligoski picks were Patrick's.
Well if GMRS can take two of another GM's picks and turn them into Two of the top 2 goal scorers in the NHL, as we speak, imagine what he can do with his own draft picks.

The only complaint I have is taking Morrow and not Saad and that is only because Brandon went to Pine-Richland (the high school of my graduation).

The tablet GM's on this board are just like those who complain in either direction that a US President is benefiting from or dealing with the actions of the man who presided before him.

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03-12-2013, 11:18 AM
  #49
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Given that home-grown dmen have recently been turned into Chris Kunitz, James Neal and Matt Niskanen through trade, I think we should all be happy with drafting for BPA.
They were also made ~7 years after being drafted and with a number of NHL seasons under their belts.

With so many Dmen, there just isn't enough ice to go around to be able to turn these prospect into valuable enough pieces to get a Neal+ or a Kunitz+ (not to mention a head coach who only plays rookies if he absolutely has to). Hell we're losing Dmen for free or little return because we don't have the roster space for them.

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03-12-2013, 11:24 AM
  #50
turd
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Moral of the story is, be patient and let Shero do his thing. We are already starting to see some of his guys make an impact and there should be a steady stream of his guys helping this team over the coming years.
Hopefully, and luckily enough he's been good enough at free agency and trading that it's covered up some holes that have been formed as a result of his drafting record. Let's not pretend the forward prospects are anything to get exciting about after Bennett. The steady stream is all defensemen. But with guys like Dupuis, Kunitz, Cooke, Adams, etc. getting older, who's gonna fill their spots?

This site is funny. It's like people are allergic to criticizing certain people in the organization. I'm not saying Shero ranks 30th in drafting since '06. Far from it. But he could've been a lot better. And there's really no two ways about it when it comes to the forward prospects. It's lean at best. And it's not a given that all of the defensive prospects will work out, either. Everyone here is penciling in these guys like they're surefire NHL players. I sure as hell hope they are, but I've seen a lot of draft picks fizzle out. Be patient with those guys, too.

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