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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:32 AM
  #101
toob
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Feds longevity gets underrated here. It isnt just about coasting and all that, many years he had a different role on the team. Not saying that he would be as consistently high as Selanne offensively if he played in a different context but he certainly had the talent to be pretty close.

He had a good rookie year and then followed it up with great years in 92 and 93. And he wasnt really playing with amazing offensive players in those years. There was Yzerman but Yzerman and Fedorov had only 10 shared points in 93 out of Fedorov's 87. Prolly more in 92 and 91 since the PP in 93 was amazing, only good in 92, and bad in 91 where Fedorov and Yzerman would have to play more together.

Then there was his D and forget the Selke which Fedorov did best in in his best offensive years, Fedorov was actually playing a defensive role on a generally defensive team in 92. In 94 when he won the Selke he was playing by far the most offensive hockey of his career with the top offensive wingers and D on the team. He was told to play more selfishly and carry the team offensively. Then in 95 the team clamps down defensively.

It is either a post-greatness slump, or the ultimate team sacrifice.

Sergei says the latter.

"I hope people saw me last year and know what I can do," he said after the Wings' game Sunday afternoon. "But they must also know the hockey we played last year is not the hockey we play this year.

"I am not playing with the same players, and I am not asked to do the same things. Sometimes I think about last year, to be honest, because I would like to defend those awards. But I have to say to myself, 'Just do the things you are told.' "

What he has been told is to concentrate on the complete game, emphasis on defensive hockey, stay within the system, and concern yourself only with victory. It was a gamble by coach Scotty Bowman -- after all, when you have a rocket in
your arsenal, it's hard to make it fly with all the other planes.

And his drop in scoring after 96. A completely different role might have something to do with it going from top offensive line with the Russian 5 to playing behind Yzerman. As Fedorov says "People ask me why I don't have more 50-goal scoring seasons like I did once," Fedorov says of his 1994 MVP trophy season. "But this is not the role that everybody wants me to play. This team has strategies -- especially with Scotty Bowman. I used to think it was bad to slow down, because it's more fun to score points. But now I believe that it was worth it."

It isnt surprising at all that when Yzerman missed a lot of time and Fedorov was called to shoulder the offensive load, he did so, easily.

The post by overg is pretty much right in many cases although i think Feds playoff performance in general is being understated a bit. But yeah IMO the 4 straight 20 point playoffs arent his best. 02 is with "only" 19 points.

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Old
03-12-2013, 06:46 AM
  #102
Yamaguchi
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Sergei Fedorov wins this one easily (a no-brainer) - he won Hart (over Wayne Gretzky), Pearson, Selkes.


He has been excellent for the Red Wings in the playoffs, and could play any position (except for goalie).


Fedorov should be compared to people like Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, not Teemu Selanne who is just a top level goal scorer.

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03-12-2013, 06:50 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Sergei Fedorov wins this one easily (a no-brainer) - he won Hart (over Wayne Gretzky), Pearson, Selkes.


He has been excellent for the Red Wings in the playoffs, and could play any position (except for goalie).


Fedorov should be compared to people like Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, not Teemu Selanne who is just a top level goal scorer.
This is the Hart voting for 1993-94:

HART: Sergei Fedorov 194 (31-11-6); Dominik Hasek 86 (6-15-11); John Vanbiesbrouck 74 (7-11-6); Doug Gilmour 50 (4-7-9); Patrick Roy 26 (3-3-2); Ray Bourque 18 (2-2-2); Scott Stevens 13 (1-1-5); Adam Graves 8 (0-1-5); Cam Neely 5 (0-1-2); Mike Richter 3 (0-1-0); Jeremy Roenick 3 (0-1-0); Pavel Bure 2 (0-0-2); Adam Oates 2 (0-0-2); Arturs Irbe 1 (0-0-1); Igor Larionov 1 (0-0-1)

I mean, technically you're right that Fedorov won the Hart over Gretzky, since Gretzky played the full season. But Gretzky didn't get a single vote for the Hart, so it's not like beating him out then was so impressive.

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03-12-2013, 06:58 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is the Hart voting for 1993-94:

HART: Sergei Fedorov 194 (31-11-6); Dominik Hasek 86 (6-15-11); John Vanbiesbrouck 74 (7-11-6); Doug Gilmour 50 (4-7-9); Patrick Roy 26 (3-3-2); Ray Bourque 18 (2-2-2); Scott Stevens 13 (1-1-5); Adam Graves 8 (0-1-5); Cam Neely 5 (0-1-2); Mike Richter 3 (0-1-0); Jeremy Roenick 3 (0-1-0); Pavel Bure 2 (0-0-2); Adam Oates 2 (0-0-2); Arturs Irbe 1 (0-0-1); Igor Larionov 1 (0-0-1)

I mean, technically you're right that Fedorov won the Hart over Gretzky, since Gretzky played the full season. But Gretzky didn't get a single vote for the Hart, so it's not like beating him out then was so impressive.


I know but Gretzky led the league in points that season.

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03-12-2013, 07:30 AM
  #105
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Mike freaking Gartner like? He not only racked up points but played the most consistent 2 way hockey for any forward on the detroit team, Stevie Y included.

Here is how he ranks from 91-03 in the playoffs during his time with Detroit.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

What did Mike Gartner do that was even close to that?
To answer the last question first, I think this qualifies: http://statshockey.homestead.com/alltimegoals.html

Gartner was one of, if not the, most consistent goalscorers in NHL history. I look at Fedorov's playoff performances in a similar light. He is one of the most consistent playoff scorers in history. But he never won a Conn Smythe. And if you sort the chart you posted by points/gm rather than raw points, Fedorov drops out of the top 10. Very respectable, but not what I would call outright dominating.

Hopefully I'm not coming off as a Fedorov basher. I've been a Wings fan for over 20 years, and the guy gave me plenty of highlights and was a key factor in 3 Cups. But Fedorov's legend around here sometimes oversteps what he was actually doing, so I sometimes feel the need to put the brakes on.


Last edited by overg: 03-12-2013 at 07:41 AM.
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03-12-2013, 07:31 AM
  #106
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I know but Gretzky led the league in points that season.
And Doug Gilmour was runner-up in '93 to a Mario Lemieux season that no ordinary human was ever going to touch. Oh yeah, and Gilmour won the Selke too. . . while putting up 127 points (more than Fedorov in 1994, on a less offensive talented team).

And Gilmour is then better in his follow-up season (1994) then Fedorov was defending his Hart in 1995. Oh yeah, and Gilmour also has two playoffs during that time better than anything Fedorov ever did.

AT BEST, Fedorov is comparable to Gilmour. . . they're both defensively-capable offensive centers with strong playoff resumes. . . but Gilmour beats him on career value. Lemieux and Gretzky? No. Just. . . no.

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03-12-2013, 07:57 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
And Doug Gilmour was runner-up in '93 to a Mario Lemieux season that no ordinary human was ever going to touch. Oh yeah, and Gilmour won the Selke too. . . while putting up 127 points (more than Fedorov in 1994, on a less offensive talented team).

And Gilmour is then better in his follow-up season (1994) then Fedorov was defending his Hart in 1995. Oh yeah, and Gilmour also has two playoffs during that time better than anything Fedorov ever did.

AT BEST, Fedorov is comparable to Gilmour. . . they're both defensively-capable offensive centers with strong playoff resumes. . . but Gilmour beats him on career value. Lemieux and Gretzky? No. Just. . . no.

I believe we had a thread discussing Fedorov vs Gilmour in the past.

I am not a Leafs fan so I wouldn't say Gilmour was better.

Fedorov has the Hart, the Pearson and 3 Stanley Cups.

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03-12-2013, 08:18 AM
  #108
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I believe we had a thread discussing Fedorov vs Gilmour in the past.

I am not a Leafs fan so I wouldn't say Gilmour was better.

Fedorov has the Hart, the Pearson and 3 Stanley Cups.
Fedorov doesn't win that Hart or that Pearson against Gilmour's 1993 competition (Mario), either. As it was, Gilmour was runner-up, had more points than Jesus Fedorov did in 94, and also won the Selke. Oh, an was better in the playoffs.

If you want to go Cup counting, than I assume you like Henri Richard as a two-way center over Fedorov?

But then, you were the guy comparing Fedorov to 99 and 66. Assuming that you are right, and those three cups and Hart win is all that puts Fedorov over Gilmour... What POSSIBLE justification coud there be to comparing him to the two best centers ever?

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03-12-2013, 08:50 AM
  #109
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Hi!

Both great hockey players and strong persons.

Career: Selšnne
Peak: Selšnne
Season: Selšnne

Fedorov was during his career also Duck. The way Ducks who have the experience of having both guys decided awhile ago when Fedorov was let go and Selšnne ... ok. Sergei is a nice guy and doing great work with Moscow CSKA as a GM today, but I go with Teemu in all categories. The support cast Feds had in DRW and Flash in the Mighty Ducks is not comparable. Also one was centerman another wing does not help this comparison.

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03-12-2013, 09:03 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Both of these guys were left out from the HOH Top-70 list. If the list would be assembled today do any of you guys see either one leaving out?

For reference's sake:
65 21 Peter Forsberg C 6'0" 205
66 4 Aurele Joliat LW 5'7" 136
67 5/16 Cy Denneny LW 5'7" 168
68 13 Boris Mikhailov RW 5'9" 170
69 17 Jari Kurri RW 6'0" 194
70 9 Ted Kennedy C 5'11" 175

The last 6 spots.

I reckon they both would crack the top-100 now.
I could see both guys ahead of Kurri, not sure exactly where they land on the top 100 though.

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03-12-2013, 09:15 AM
  #111
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BamBamCam you're excellent example of miserable unsuccessfull troll. Your attempt to continue your campaign against me with another horrible nitpicking ended very bad, altough not in a way you would like - you made a complete fool from yourself.
No, not trying to troll you, sorry you feel that way, maybe my approach is not always great but not trying to troll you.

However, I still feel my original point is correct. It has gotten twisted some since I first said it but hey, is what it is. I still don't think Fedorov's season while a great one is not one of the best like you claim. That's all I said. I screwed up with the DPE comment but that's about it.

As far as looking like a fool? Not as bad as you trying to tell everyone Bellows, Broten Propp and Gagner were just "decent" players or trying to turn one season wonder Jim Carey into Patrick Roy.

Brian Elliot? Yeah, probably not the best example, still sick numbers, we have seen goalies win the Vezina with less, so it's not completely a left field comment, I agree not a great example though.

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03-12-2013, 09:28 AM
  #112
Yamaguchi
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Fedorov doesn't win that Hart or that Pearson against Gilmour's 1993 competition (Mario), either. As it was, Gilmour was runner-up, had more points than Jesus Fedorov did in 94, and also won the Selke. Oh, an was better in the playoffs.

If you want to go Cup counting, than I assume you like Henri Richard as a two-way center over Fedorov?

But then, you were the guy comparing Fedorov to 99 and 66. Assuming that you are right, and those three cups and Hart win is all that puts Fedorov over Gilmour... What POSSIBLE justification coud there be to comparing him to the two best centers ever?

The NHL goals per game in 1992-93 was much higher than in the 93/94 season:

1992/93 - 7,25 goals per game
1993/94 - 6,48 goals per game

As you can see, the overall scoring has dropped significantly, therefore Gilmour's 127 aren't better than Fedorov' 120 pts.


Here are some more facts about Fedorov:

- During the 1990s, Fedorov was third in playoff scoring behind only Lemieux and Jagr.

- Only the third player in NHL history to have four consecutive 20+ point playoffs, along with Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier.

- Led the entire NHL in Plus-minus in the 1990s with a +221


I think we should stop this discussion in here because this is not the Gilmour vs Fedorov thread.

Cheers

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03-12-2013, 09:47 AM
  #113
Theokritos
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a no-brainer
Suprise surprise.

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03-12-2013, 09:52 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Suprise surprise.

I used it on purpose. Glad you've noticed

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03-12-2013, 09:58 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Here are some more facts about Fedorov:

- During the 1990s, Fedorov was third in playoff scoring behind only Lemieux and Jagr.

- Only the third player in NHL history to have four consecutive 20+ point playoffs, along with Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier.

- Led the entire NHL in Plus-minus in the 1990s with a +221
The fact, that these facts aren't widely recognized is argument for or against Fedorov? Because that tells something about him. Mike Garnter also scored more goals during 1980s than Bossy.

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03-12-2013, 10:03 AM
  #116
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It's extremely close but I'm going with Fedorov on this one. Can't go wrong with either though.

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03-12-2013, 10:04 AM
  #117
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Apparently, we have had this discussion before, I found this in there: Something to throw in anyhow.

Points:

1.Selanne 132
2.Fedorov 120
3.Selanne 109
4.Selanne 108
5.Selanne 107
5.Fedorov 107
7.Selanne 94
8.Selanne 90
9.Fedorov 87
10.Selanne 86
10.Fedorov 86

All Fedorovs seasons on the list are 91-94 (high scoring era). Selanne 3 out of top4 were in 95-99.

Goals:

1.Selanne 76
2.Fedorov 56
3.Selanne 52
4.Selanne 51
5.Selanne 48
6.Selanne 47
7.Selanne 40
7.Selanne 40
9.Fedorov 39
10.Fedorov 36

Assists:

1.Selanne 68
1.Fedorov 68
3.Fedorov 64
4.Selanne 60
5.Selanne 58
6.Selanne 56
7.Fedorov 54
8.Fedorov 53
9.Selanne 52
10.Selanne 50

top10 goals:

Selanne 6 times (1st,1st,1st,2nd,3rd,10th)
Fedorov once (3rd)

top10 assists:

Selanne 4 times (4th,7th,9th,9th)
Fedorov once (9th)

top10 points:

Selanne 6 times (2nd,2nd,5th,5th,7th,8th)
Fedorov twice (2nd,9th)

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03-12-2013, 10:28 AM
  #118
Yamaguchi
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
The fact, that these facts aren't widely recognized is argument for or against Fedorov? Because that tells something about him. Mike Garnter also scored more goals during 1980s than Bossy.

Pardon me, I didn't get it. What does Gartner/Bossy have to do with Fedorov?

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03-12-2013, 10:47 AM
  #119
TAnnala
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
haha..

errraaaaa Chappaquiddick
I don't get it. What do you mean?

Just crossed my mind, going Off-Topic, but why Ted Kennedy was neither 1st or 2nd team All-Star in his Hart year?

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03-12-2013, 10:48 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Pardon me, I didn't get it. What does Gartner/Bossy have to do with Fedorov?
He is going for the fact that those accomplishments you listed are not as impressive as you make them out to be.

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03-12-2013, 10:52 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
The fact, that these facts aren't widely recognized is argument for or against Fedorov? Because that tells something about him. Mike Garnter also scored more goals during 1980s than Bossy.

This would be incorrect.

Bossy scored 451 goals good for 2nd most in the 80s

Gartner scored 404 goals good for 6th most in the 80s


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03-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
This would be incorrect.

Bossy scored 451 goals good for 7th in the 80s

Gartner scored 404 goals good for 15th in the 80s
Between seasons 80-81 and 89-90 Gartner scored 413 goals good for 4th and Bossy scored 400 good for 5th.

You were looking it from 79-80 to 88-89 seasons which is basically the "wrong" way to do it.

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03-12-2013, 11:02 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Between seasons 80-81 and 89-90 Gartner scored 413 goals good for 4th and Bossy scored 400 good for 5th.

You were looking it from 79-80 to 88-89 seasons which is basically the "wrong" way to do it.


More games are played in the 80s during the 79/80 season than would be 89/90.

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03-12-2013, 11:04 AM
  #124
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Did i miss something or was my math wrong? Your post is not too helpful.

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03-12-2013, 11:06 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
He is going for the fact that those accomplishments you listed are not as impressive as you make them out to be.
I think they are quite impressive.

The Stanley Cup is more important than a successful performance during a regular season.

And Fedorov was an excellent postseason performer in the 1990s.

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