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03-12-2013, 02:30 AM
  #151
Abbotsford Heat
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Also, it's impossible for the Flames to a) keep Iginla and b) pull off a 1-2 year rebuild. You realize that to speed up the rebuild process, you need assets. Assets which can only be brought in by trading away players like Iginla, Giordano, Kipper, etc. The Flames simply do not have the prospect base to be competitive any time soon.
It's impossible? Get real! A smart trade or 2, a couple smart UFA signings, an unexpected breakout along with a single top pick from this coming could easily have the Flames back in the playoff picture and moving forward. It could all be done without moving Iginla.

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03-12-2013, 03:04 AM
  #152
Flamesarmstrong22
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Here is my rebuild plan:

Calgary rebuild

Trade stempniak to Boston for bartkowski+2nd

Trade babchuk to rangers for 4th,

Trade sarich to Carolina for a 3rd

Trade iginla to Pittsburgh for joe morrow + Tyler Kennedy + conditional 1st if iggy resigns or Pitts wins the cup.

Trade kiprusoff to Tampa for Matthieu garon, Brett connoly,
Conditional 2nd if kiprusoff returns next season or Tampa makes the playoffs.

Trade giordano to st.louis for Ian cole+ ty rattie

Trade tanguay to Vancouver for mason Raymond + 1st

Line up
Cammalerri,backlund,hudler
Glencros,stajan,Raymond
Bartchi,Kennedy,rattie/connoly/?
Bouma,comeau,Aliu

Brodie,bouwmeester
Butler,wideman
Cole, smith/morrow

Ramo
Garon

Finish 26th in 2013, draft barkov 4th overall. Also have Vancouver and pits 1st round picks, Boston and Tampa 2nds, and a Carolina 3rd in what is suppost to be a very deep draft.

Finish bottom 5 in 2014, draft Sam Reinhart to continue the Reinhart tradition in Calgary.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:04 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I don't understand why everyone thinks to rebuild you need to trade away your franchise player. Pittsburgh did not trade Lemuix, Phoenix did not trade Doan, and Ottawa did not trade Alfredsson. I hate this mentality of trade everything or nothing. That is a stupid way to go about the rebuilding process. Just go ask our neighbours up in Edmonton. As I've explained multiple times on this forum there is a great benefit to keeping Jarome around during the rebuild process. Also, through a good rebuild we can become competitive in 1-2 seasons. That still gives Iginla a couple of years to win the cup with us. If we completely blow everything up, we will be stuck being crap just like Edmonton for 5-6+ years.

Also, many teams would be more than willing to pay Iginla an 8+ million contract or trade valuable assets for him. His value is still just as high as it has been for the last couple of seasons. Just look at how popular Doan was this off season.
Again, I don't want them to trade Jarome as part of the rebuild. I want to see him win somewhere now. And they have to trade him now, or never. He's not as significant to the Flames anymore in my opinion, other than being my favorite player, and the face of the team. My point was: A) you can't trade other assets and not Jarome, he won't stand for it. B)They don't want to trade Jarome, but if they trade only him at the deadline, they'll look like idiots because they traded their best player and kept this ineffectual roster for next year.
Also, he's not getting 8+ million in a contract. I think the demand for Doan was in part due to phoenix almost going all the way.
I agree with you that you can turn it around in 1-2 years, but you have to have some cornerstone in place. Ottawa had Karlsson and Spezza. It's fine to keep Iginla, but but your imaginary trades aren't going to happen. Plus, the Sens kept alfredsson all these years because they were actually making the Playoffs.


Last edited by Kranix: 03-12-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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03-12-2013, 11:24 AM
  #154
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Hopefully after these last 3 games management can read the writing on the wall and realize we can't compete with the top teams. Sadly I believe they feel were only 6 points out of 3rd so we can make it. Another 3 game losing streak and we will see some changes.

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03-12-2013, 11:25 AM
  #155
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Tank tank tank. Force managements hand!

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03-12-2013, 11:33 AM
  #156
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I hate the idea of losing on purpose but, if we come out and win the next three, or 3 of the next 4 we are going to put ourselves back into limbo-land again, and they are going to think we have a chance to make it.

If the skid continues it will be mathematically to late to turn it around. I am kind of hoping for that at this point. Its very clear we are not a playoff team, and even if we sneak it we just arent matched well against this leagues top teams.

The franchise would probably be better off with a bottom 5 finish this year, and moving some pieces for futures. This team has some fundamental flaws and they wont be dealt with until we have no hope in hell of making the playoffs.

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03-12-2013, 12:59 PM
  #157
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I think we should exercise smart asset management regardless of our hockey aspirations and goals. Trade or resign Iginla because his contract is expiring, as with Cervenka. Sell if it makes sense, buy if it makes sense.

If the goal is to build a cup contender in 5 years, we need smart, saavy asset management whether we buy or sell. I believe we need a new core to meet that goal, regardless if its through our own prospect development (ie, JG, Janko, Arnold, etc, trades or free agency. I'm OK with keeping our current assets such as Iginla if they are are not relied upon as keystone core players, but either way our roster needs a major shake up.

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03-12-2013, 02:28 PM
  #158
Double Dion
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There are some smaller moves that could really pay off for us down the line. More and more I think Iggy isn't going anywhere despite what fans want. My dream scenario is for him to pull a Tkachuk special and let us trade him at the deadline for the next 2 seasons and re-sign him in the offseason. I recognize that is very unlikely though. In this dream scenario we could target players that are close and would be ready in two years. Then perhaps Iggy could make the playoffs again as a Flame.

More realistically, we could move "lesser" lights. Players like Stempniak, Jackman, Butler and Sarich could be desirable for certain teams. I think you'd definitely find a taker for Stempniak and Butler. Sarich and Jackman would be more need dependant. I could see something like this working out at the deadline:

Stempniak to the Penguins for a 2nd and 4th

Butler to the Wings for a 3rd and 5th

Jackman to the Canucks for a 4th

Sarich to the Rangers for a 4th.

I realize this doesn't change the franchise, but it does give us a shot at hitting on players like Moss, Lombardi and Brodie. None of them are franchise types, but if we hit on two guys of that ilk in those 6 picks it would help the pipeline a lot.

I'd love to see guys like Iginla, Kipper, Cammaleri, Tanguay and one of Gio/JBo (whoever brought the most back) moved, but assuming the organization is being honest with us, I don't see it happening.

Management could move out those 4 guys without effecting the overall club in a big way. (Assuming Stempniak isn't on one of his hot streaks where he scores 7 goals in 8 games)

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03-12-2013, 02:29 PM
  #159
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Kepp Iggy and 2-3 other veteran so the pressure is not on a bunch of 18-20 yo kids.

That's what Ottawa did right and the Oilers or Islanders did wrong.

Spezza, Alfi, Michalek, Neil, Gonchar, Phillips and Anderson were the ones expected to carry the team and they did. Kids like Karlsson, Cowen, Smith, Greening, Condra, Foligno and now Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Wiercioch, Lehner were able to come in and play, learn and develop without any pressure. Unlike other teams who are waiting for their high picks to carry them to success.

I'm happy Ottawa decided to do it in 2010-11, probably two year too late but it had to be done. We did hit a homerun with Karlsson though..

I believe Calgary has to take that step too. Iginla is still a 30g/70 pts player but he means much more than pts for the Flames, you wont get a fair return for that kind of player.

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03-12-2013, 02:39 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senateurs View Post
Kepp Iggy and 2-3 other veteran so the pressure is not on a bunch of 18-20 yo kids.

That's what Ottawa did right and the Oilers or Islanders did wrong.

Spezza, Alfi, Michalek, Neil, Gonchar, Phillips and Anderson were the ones expected to carry the team and they did. Kids like Karlsson, Cowen, Smith, Greening, Condra, Foligno and now Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Wiercioch, Lehner were able to come in and play, learn and develop without any pressure. Unlike other teams who are waiting for their high picks to carry them to success.

I'm happy Ottawa decided to do it in 2010-11, probably two year too late but it had to be done. We did hit a homerun with Karlsson though..

I believe Calgary has to take that step too. Iginla is still a 30g/70 pts player but he means much more than pts for the Flames, you wont get a fair return for that kind of player.
In general teams never get a good return on trading star players, but Iginla deserves a chance at the cup and trading him is better than letting him walk. As long as Iginla is here the team will try to win versus doing a real rebuild and getting some young talent in the draft, we tried to trade our first last year, we almost moved our first this year. As long as Iginla is here we will continue to try and build for the now.

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03-12-2013, 02:44 PM
  #161
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In general teams never get a good return on trading star players, but Iginla deserves a chance at the cup and trading him is better than letting him walk. As long as Iginla is here the team will try to win versus doing a real rebuild and getting some young talent in the draft, we tried to trade our first last year, we almost moved our first this year. As long as Iginla is here we will continue to try and build for the now.
Agreed, I think Iginla creates a "win now for Iggy" type of thing that has been unhealthy for the organization. I still doubt he gets moved, but I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. Moving Iginla essentially admits we are changing course. I'd have a different opinion if we were a playoff team at least, but three years and an upcoming 4th should paint a pretty clear picture.

People blamed Brent, but he was a good coach. You just can't get blood from a stone.

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03-12-2013, 02:46 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senateurs View Post
Kepp Iggy and 2-3 other veteran so the pressure is not on a bunch of 18-20 yo kids.

That's what Ottawa did right and the Oilers or Islanders did wrong.

Spezza, Alfi, Michalek, Neil, Gonchar, Phillips and Anderson were the ones expected to carry the team and they did. Kids like Karlsson, Cowen, Smith, Greening, Condra, Foligno and now Zibanejad, Silfverberg, Wiercioch, Lehner were able to come in and play, learn and develop without any pressure. Unlike other teams who are waiting for their high picks to carry them to success.

I'm happy Ottawa decided to do it in 2010-11, probably two year too late but it had to be done. We did hit a homerun with Karlsson though..

I believe Calgary has to take that step too. Iginla is still a 30g/70 pts player but he means much more than pts for the Flames, you wont get a fair return for that kind of player.
Ottawa had pieces that Calgary doesnt, we dont have a Spezza on our team to take over for Iginla. We have basically nothing.

This team has been so mismanaged in the past, that scorched earth is really the only way to go now.

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03-12-2013, 02:47 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
Agreed, I think Iginla creates a "win now for Iggy" type of thing that has been unhealthy for the organization. I still doubt he gets moved, but I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. Moving Iginla essentially admits we are changing course. I'd have a different opinion if we were a playoff team at least, but three years and an upcoming 4th should paint a pretty clear picture.

People blamed Brent, but he was a good coach. You just can't get blood from a stone.
We are going to have agree to disagree on that one.

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03-12-2013, 02:51 PM
  #164
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
We are going to have agree to disagree on that one.
He did fine with Jersey, at the WJHC and took a worse team last year to within one spot of the playoffs. Hartley has taken the same team (with a slightly better roster IMO) to the bottom of the western conference. I don't think Hartley is a terrible coach either. (Although I do question some of his player deployment Ie. Jones in the minors while we have Begin centering the 4th line)

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03-12-2013, 02:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
He did fine with Jersey, at the WJHC and took a worse team last year to within one spot of the playoffs. Hartley has taken the same team (with a slightly better roster IMO) to the bottom of the western conference. I don't think Hartley is a terrible coach either. (Although I do question some of his player deployment Ie. Jones in the minors while we have Begin centering the 4th line)
Hartley hasn't gotten close to the same level of goal tending as Sutter, also it is extremely unfair to judge Hartley when he had 1 week to implement a new system, Sutter had 3 years and didn't maximize his players.

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03-12-2013, 03:05 PM
  #166
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Hartley hasn't gotten close to the same level of goal tending as Sutter, also it is extremely unfair to judge Hartley when he had 1 week to implement a new system, Sutter had 3 years and didn't maximize his players.
I agree with that and it's a good point. I disagree with the system thing. Sutter did implement a system. He just had 2 top 4 defensemen since Brodie hadn't emerged fully and Wideman wasn't here yet. The thing I liked about Brent was his system. Which players did Sutter fail to maximize? I could see Backlund and Stajan. I think it's also fair to say Hartley misused Sven, Jones and Cervenka.

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03-12-2013, 03:08 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I agree with that and it's a good point. I disagree with the system thing. Sutter did implement a system. He just had 2 top 4 defensemen since Brodie hadn't emerged fully and Wideman wasn't here yet. The thing I liked about Brent was his system. Which players did Sutter fail to maximize? I could see Backlund and Stajan. I think it's also fair to say Hartley misused Sven, Jones and Cervenka.
Sutter missed used no physical skilled players Stajan,Backlund,Jbo. While he valued hard working less skilled guys Jackman,TKO,Hannan,Butler.

I never said Sutter didn't implement a system I was saying Hartley only had a week to implement his system which was a complete 180 from what Sutter was trying to do, it is pretty clear by watching the team they still don't get it 100%.

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03-12-2013, 03:10 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I think it's also fair to say Hartley misused Sven, Jones and Cervenka.
Sven before he got hurt? Maybe. Afterwards not so much. Jones I'll agree with, but the 4th line won't make a huge difference in the long run.

Cervenka is a different animal all together. We all know he started good, slid, and now bounced back a bit. It's tough to get a read on him, and I don't blame Hartley for juggling him around.

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03-12-2013, 03:15 PM
  #169
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Sven before he got hurt? Maybe. Afterwards not so much. Jones I'll agree with, but the 4th line won't make a huge difference in the long run.

Cervenka is a different animal all together. We all know he started good, slid, and now bounced back a bit. It's tough to get a read on him, and I don't blame Hartley for juggling him around.
I think Cervenka has been good overall, and he and Hartley are still tinkering with how he works best on this team. As long as Cervenka isn't getting down over it or anything, I think moving him around is fine for now.

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03-12-2013, 03:16 PM
  #170
Double Dion
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Originally Posted by Flames Fanatic View Post
Sven before he got hurt? Maybe. Afterwards not so much. Jones I'll agree with, but the 4th line won't make a huge difference in the long run.

Cervenka is a different animal all together. We all know he started good, slid, and now bounced back a bit. It's tough to get a read on him, and I don't blame Hartley for juggling him around.
Have you ever started a new job where it took you a bit to find your groove? How about one where it's a new culture, new level and different language? I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for Sven and Cervenka to struggle a bit at various points. That's why you have a coach. Demoting them to play 3 minutes with the 4th line is certainly not the solution.

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03-12-2013, 08:14 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Shawnofthedeadz View Post
I don't understand why everyone thinks to rebuild you need to trade away your franchise player. Pittsburgh did not trade Lemuix,
Iginla isn't the franchise player anymore, man. I'm sorry to say it. He's the best player on the team, but he's not Eric Lindros circa 1996. Seems like you're thinking as if Jarome was 27 years old. It's fine to hold on to him, but there is nothing to be done internally to make the team a contender within 3-5 years. Trades to turn a team around are way harder than you are thinking. We know how they did in free agency.
And Lemieux owned the team, so he wouldn't trade himself.

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03-13-2013, 07:49 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In general teams never get a good return on trading star players, but Iginla deserves a chance at the cup and trading him is better than letting him walk. As long as Iginla is here the team will try to win versus doing a real rebuild and getting some young talent in the draft, we tried to trade our first last year, we almost moved our first this year. As long as Iginla is here we will continue to try and build for the now.
I got to admit that I forgot he was a UFA but if management decide to keep him and they do this right, he could definately be part of the rebuild, he's not that old.

And as some have mentioned, past management has made it real hard to do the quick turn around.

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