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Old
03-12-2013, 02:02 AM
  #76
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
6.5 for 2 more years after this one.

Alright that was my final offer, just no bite.
Thats the hit, yes. The buy out is what I was referring to, which is far far less. The point is, if we need to move his contract off the books its not a big deal, at all. Certainly not going to effect his value to us. Like I said, I'm fine with the value in the Luogno Briere offer, just doesn't work out.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:09 AM
  #77
WeekendAtBernies
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Because teams trade 70 point Selke winners or 50 point number 1 defenceman for a struggling second year player. Yes Couts is a valuable piece, but he isn't as valuable as either Kesler or Edler, especially to a team like the Canucks.
Just so we're clear, a Canucks fan is the one who proposed giving us Kesler. Quite frankly, I haven't seen one Flyers fan yet who said "yes" to wanting Kesler at the expense of Couturier+.

And just so you know, we Flyers fans are not dense, Kesler clearly has more value, but not to us, not at that cap hit, not when we need to sign Schenn and Giroux still. For us, Couturier's cheap cost-controlled years make him a better fit. Having 3 expensive centers would just be silly. If anything, because we have such tremendous depth at center, our centers aren't all being used to their fullest potential (see Couturier). We don't want to compound that problem by adding ~4M in salary and acquiring an even more skilled center.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:18 AM
  #78
WeekendAtBernies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Agreed...Kesler isn't the asset Philadelphia should be looking for.

What would you add to Couts for Edler though? Stringerbell hit the nail on the head...he's not the right kind of return for us. The return adding to Couturier wouldn't be worth it. Voracek would be interesting, but he's not a tradable player for the Flyers, would he?
In the other Vancouver-Philly thread, we struck a trade that a good deal of fans of both teams were happy with:

Edler + Schneider for Couturier + Coburn + 1st (Top 10 protected in 2013).

Alternatively if you really need secondary scoring, we could do Edler + Schneider for Couturier + Coburn + Briere, as another poster suggested. You guys would need to include a cap-dump for cap purposes though (I'm assuming Ballard or Booth).

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03-12-2013, 02:24 AM
  #79
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Just so we're clear, a Canucks fan is the one who proposed giving us Kesler. Quite frankly, I haven't seen one Flyers fan yet who said "yes" to wanting Kesler at the expense of Couturier+.

And just so you know, we Flyers fans are not dense, Kesler clearly has more value, but not to us, not at that cap hit, not when we need to sign Schenn and Giroux still. For us, Couturier's cheap cost-controlled years make him a better fit. Having 3 expensive centers would just be silly. If anything, because we have such tremendous depth at center, our centers aren't all being used to their fullest potential (see Couturier). We don't want to compound that problem by adding ~4M in salary and acquiring an even more skilled center.
Yeah, not sure why the H*** the guy proposed Kesler, we need him. (And his cap hit is excellent by the way, only 5 mill )

I don't think he is the move you need to make now either and we won't give him up for what you would be willing to pay. So I guess standing pat is what works best for both sides.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:32 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
In the other Vancouver-Philly thread, we struck a trade that a good deal of fans of both teams were happy with:

Edler + Schneider for Couturier + Coburn + 1st (Top 10 protected in 2013).

Alternatively if you really need secondary scoring, we could do Edler + Schneider for Couturier + Coburn + Briere, as another poster suggested. You guys would need to include a cap-dump for cap purposes though (I'm assuming Ballard or Booth).
Does Coburn play right? I know it likely means little saying "well...if..." to a trade that may have worked out, hypothetically, in another thread...but it doesn't thrill me. Value's nothing to belittle, but I don't know...Right handed D seem short at the higher levels within the Flyers organization, and personally, not getting one back seems to leave our D in no better situation then keeping Edler.

I don't know that Briere would be worth the cap hit on this team, no disrespect...and NTC problems arise.

This is all me talking though, and I might just be tired though. G'night all.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:37 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
Yeah, not sure why the H*** the guy proposed Kesler, we need him. (And his cap hit is excellent by the way, only 5 mill )

I don't think he is the move you need to make now either and we won't give him up for what you would be willing to pay. So I guess standing pat is what works best for both sides.
I'm aware that Kesler has a very nice cap hit for the level of production he provides, I'm just saying it'd be pretty bad for the Flyers to have to pay Giroux 8M, Kesler, 5M, and Schenn 5M too (which is what he's heading for if he puts up the equivalent of 60 pts this year and 70 pts next year). That's too much money tied up in the center position.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:41 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Does Coburn play right? I know it likely means little saying "well...if..." to a trade that may have worked out, hypothetically, in another thread...but it doesn't thrill me. Value's nothing to belittle, but I don't know...Right handed D seem short at the higher levels within the Flyers organization, and personally, not getting one back seems to leave our D in no better situation then keeping Edler.

I don't know that Briere would be worth the cap hit on this team, no disrespect...and NTC problems arise.

This is all me talking though, and I might just be tired though. G'night all.
Coburn is a left-handed defenseman, but he plays the right side for us and has for quite some time now. Actually I can't remember him playing the left for us for any stretch of time. He's pretty much a natural right side defenseman.

As far as Briere goes, he would probably be worth the cap hit for a playoff/cup run, but you might want to amnesty him after that. That's why we'd be taking back one of your cap dumps too, to ease the burden. I think he might waive for a contender like VAN, but we never really know till it happens.

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03-12-2013, 06:12 AM
  #83
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I'm down with Briere for your 1st. Any of those other trades, no thank you.

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Old
03-12-2013, 07:59 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by King Canuck View Post
Couturier will never be as good as Kesler. The over ratting of Couturier continues. It's down right idiotic to suggest he has more value than Kesler. It's like me saying Jensen has more value than Voracek.
Kesler, at Couturiers age, was no where near as good as he's turned out to be. I don't even think he was in the NHL at Couturiers age. So how can you project Couturier?

The point is, where does Kesler fit in on the Flyers? He's not taking Girouxs spot on the top line. Schenn is developing very nicely as the 2nd line center and since Philly is hardly a contender, we may as well keep him there. Kesler as the 3rd line center doesn't make sense. Moving a 20 year old for a guy who's injuries are beginning to affect his game just doesn't look like a good fit for a team on the rebuild.

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Old
03-12-2013, 10:56 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You're underrating Simmonds a great deal and Couturier isn't just a future #2C. If you wanted an average potential #2C, Laughton would do the trick.

Simmonds + Couturier is a push to get Weber, not Edler. Even then, the Flyers turned down Schenn + Couturier for Weber, and Simmonds might have more value than Schenn.

And Edler is good, but 1) he's not Weber good, not even close and 2) I can't imagine Edler moving right after signing that contract.
I personally feel the Flyers were foolish to turn down Couturier and Schenn for Weber, but that's just me.

I don't feel I'm underrating either of these guys, I like both players quite a bit. I see Couturier becoming a Pavelski type player, so essentially a #2C. Simmonds I suppose could turn into a Hartnell-type #1W support player, but I don't know if he's a guy that can carry the offense on a line himself. I don't think calling him a #2W is far off the mark really, I think he'll regularly score between 20-30 goals and put up 50-60 points (his peak year may be slightly above this).

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Old
03-12-2013, 11:09 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I personally feel the Flyers were foolish to turn down Couturier and Schenn for Weber, but that's just me.

I don't feel I'm underrating either of these guys, I like both players quite a bit. I see Couturier becoming a Pavelski type player, so essentially a #2C. Simmonds I suppose could turn into a Hartnell-type #1W support player, but I don't know if he's a guy that can carry the offense on a line himself. I don't think calling him a #2W is far off the mark really, I think he'll regularly score between 20-30 goals and put up 50-60 points (his peak year may be slightly above this).
Hartnell is a 1st line winger and he will do just that, so why isn't Simmonds a 1st line winger when he will do that on top of being a better all-around player than Hartnell?

Just because Hartnell plays with Giroux and Simmonds plays with Schenn does not mean Hartnell > Simmonds.

Also, Schenn + Couturier would be terrible for Weber. Our lineup down the middle would go from:

Giroux --> Schenn --> Couturier --> Laughton

to

Giroux --> Laughton

You win games down the middle. It would've been a stupid trade.

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:53 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Hartnell is a 1st line winger and he will do just that, so why isn't Simmonds a 1st line winger when he will do that on top of being a better all-around player than Hartnell?

Just because Hartnell plays with Giroux and Simmonds plays with Schenn does not mean Hartnell > Simmonds.

Also, Schenn + Couturier would be terrible for Weber. Our lineup down the middle would go from:

Giroux --> Schenn --> Couturier --> Laughton

to

Giroux --> Laughton

You win games down the middle. It would've been a stupid trade.
You also win games with a high end #1 defenseman. From a value stand point I don't think it'd be a stupid trade. Can Briere play center, or is he better suited to wing? I would have figured as long as you had Giroux and Briere you may be able to acquire some bottom 6 centers in free agency. But, to be fair, I'm not a Flyers fan and I'm likely beating a dead horse here, so I'll rescind.

Now, is Hartnell a 1st line winger? It really depends on your standard. For 3 of his 5 seasons in Philly he has been under 50 points, and this season isn't looking like an impressive one so far either. Simmonds is certainly looking like a 1st line winger this season, but last season he was under 50 points. So again, it really depends how frivolously you'd like to throw around the term #1 winger. What is your definition?

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Old
03-12-2013, 01:06 PM
  #88
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Deal
Rev we can only wish. I drive Danny to the airport for free.

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:50 PM
  #89
Sergei Shirokov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
I'm aware that Kesler has a very nice cap hit for the level of production he provides, I'm just saying it'd be pretty bad for the Flyers to have to pay Giroux 8M, Kesler, 5M, and Schenn 5M too (which is what he's heading for if he puts up the equivalent of 60 pts this year and 70 pts next year). That's too much money tied up in the center position.
I absolutely agree.

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
You also win games with a high end #1 defenseman. From a value stand point I don't think it'd be a stupid trade. Can Briere play center, or is he better suited to wing? I would have figured as long as you had Giroux and Briere you may be able to acquire some bottom 6 centers in free agency. But, to be fair, I'm not a Flyers fan and I'm likely beating a dead horse here, so I'll rescind.

Now, is Hartnell a 1st line winger? It really depends on your standard. For 3 of his 5 seasons in Philly he has been under 50 points, and this season isn't looking like an impressive one so far either. Simmonds is certainly looking like a 1st line winger this season, but last season he was under 50 points. So again, it really depends how frivolously you'd like to throw around the term #1 winger. What is your definition?
Great post.

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