HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Is Horcoff more important than most of us think?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-11-2013, 10:05 PM
  #101
awesomo
HARD!
 
awesomo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: location, location
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,651
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Here's who RNH has had to match up against in Horcoff's absence:

1/31 (SJS) - Thornton-Marleau-Pavelski (55%) - 1 point
2/2 (COL) - Duchene-McGinn-Parenteau (61%)
2/4 (VAN) - H.Sedin-D.Sedin-Kassian/Burrows (53%)
2/9 (DET) - Zetterberg-Brunner-Franzen (67%)
2/10 (CBJ) - Umberger-Brassard-Dorsett (41%) - 1 point
****funny game, because I think CBJ was using Dorsett to try and injure/punish/shut down RNH - he was literally on for 70% of RNH's shifts

2/12 (DAL) - (no real matchup game)
2/16 (COL) - Duchene-Mcginn-Parenteau (52%) - 1 point

2/21 (MIN) - Koivu-Parise-Heatley/Brodziak (55%)
2/23 (PHX) - Gordon-Moss-(winger) (59%)
2/25 (CHI) - (no real matchup game)
2/28 (DAL) - Roy-Roussel (54%)

3/1 (STL) - Backes-Schwartz-Oshie (61%)
3/3 (MIN) - Koivu-Parise-Coyle (60%)
3/5 (CBJ) - (no real matchup game) - 1 point
3/7 (DET) - Datsyuk-Abdelkader-Cleary (78%)
3/8 (NSH) - (no real matchup game)

He had 4 points in those 17 games, playing tough matchups without Horcoff

He has 6 points in 6 games when Horcoff has been in the line-up.
Here's who he spent the most time with in those games:
1/20 (VAN) - Andrew Ebbett
1/22 (SJS) - Logan Couture
1/24 (LAK) - M.Richards (trust me, much easier matchup than Kopitar)
1/26 (CGY) - Tanguay-Iginla-Glencross
1/28 (COL) - (no stats available)
3/10 (CHI) - Toews-Saad-Hossa (looked horrible)

And that, friends, is the Horcoff effect.
While it is an interesting theory. It's not like RNH didn't play well in many of those games. He just couldn't finish. Many times he was in great scoring position only to fire it wide.

awesomo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-11-2013, 11:50 PM
  #102
dookers9
Registered User
 
dookers9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pravi83Oil View Post
Ive always said Horcoff is a great 3rd line center. People hate on him too much because hes overpayed. Drop 2-2.5m off his contract and hes a player most every team wants. Good on the draw, takes heavy load of D workload, has enough offense to put up 30-40 pts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic View Post
I have always said Horcoff at ~4 Million is beloved by all.
So the villain here, is KLowe. Not a new concept. And you'll get a fair bit of agreement from many.

But strike up a happy medium in a contract of, say... 3.25M, and you'll still have plenty noticing the poor choices with the puck.

I'm not saying he's the only one. But in the midst of faceoff success and pp puck tipping, that 3.5M will still buy you plenty of frustrating whiffs.

Without his goal last night, this is a tied game (at best) and, knowing the Oilers, a likely loss in O/T. But he had plenty of opportunities to play pucks off boards or to chip out of our zone that he failed on, which contributed to the uber-pressure that saw Hawks goals or near-goals.

You take the good with the bad. At his contract, it's too many bad.

dookers9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:32 PM
  #103
GreatKeith
Super Smashed Oilers
 
GreatKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,713
vCash: 2394
2 goals in 2 games for the Captain.

But more importantly, 2 wins on the road.

GreatKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:36 PM
  #104
Diamondillium
DO YOU WANT ANTS!?
 
Diamondillium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,684
vCash: 337
"Because he's the hero Edmonton deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not the hero. He's a silent guardian, watchful protector. The Horc Knight."

Essentially he is amazing at eating up minutes against top lines, while not getting killed out there. This is very valuable as it allows us to keep the younger guys out there against easier competition. As a result, his stats look below average, and he gets shat on by the fans, even though he is making a large difference.

Diamondillium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:04 AM
  #105
topchowda
Registered User
 
topchowda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,430
vCash: 500
Can we all admit he is. It will be hard to find a guy that is as effective in FA as him. He is also a classic whipping boy but accepts it. Not the best 3c in the league but damn effective. Just goes to show youth wont always lead to winning games

topchowda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:19 AM
  #106
Oil and Avs
Registered User
 
Oil and Avs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 522
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Can we all admit he is. It will be hard to find a guy that is as effective in FA as him. He is also a classic whipping boy but accepts it. Not the best 3c in the league but damn effective. Just goes to show youth wont always lead to winning games
Agree with everything that your saying, expect your underselling him as a 3c. He might not be the best or most skilled yes, but for what he brings to our team he is certainly top ten. Look at the 3rd line centers in the rest of our division:

Vancouver: watching thats hockey tonight they were talking about how they are struggling to find someone to play that role, its listed as chris higgins.

Colorado:Ryan O'Reilly, okay he sort of ruins my argument

Minnesota:Kyle Brodziak

Calgary:Matt Stajan

Elsewhere around the league:Chris Kelly (BOS),Matt Hendricks (WASH),Marty Reasoner(NYI),Andrew Shaw (CHI), JT Miller (NYR),Brandon Sutter (PIT),Gabriel Dumont?? (MTL),Nazem Kadri (TOR), Riley Nash (CAR).

In that list Horcoff is right up there, he is very valuable to our team and our record with and without him this year shows that.

Oil and Avs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:21 AM
  #107
TheNumber4
Registered User
 
TheNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_83 View Post
Here's who RNH has had to match up against in Horcoff's absence:

1/31 (SJS) - Thornton-Marleau-Pavelski (55%) - 1 point
2/2 (COL) - Duchene-McGinn-Parenteau (61%)
2/4 (VAN) - H.Sedin-D.Sedin-Kassian/Burrows (53%)
2/9 (DET) - Zetterberg-Brunner-Franzen (67%)
2/10 (CBJ) - Umberger-Brassard-Dorsett (41%) - 1 point
****funny game, because I think CBJ was using Dorsett to try and injure/punish/shut down RNH - he was literally on for 70% of RNH's shifts

2/12 (DAL) - (no real matchup game)
2/16 (COL) - Duchene-Mcginn-Parenteau (52%) - 1 point

2/21 (MIN) - Koivu-Parise-Heatley/Brodziak (55%)
2/23 (PHX) - Gordon-Moss-(winger) (59%)
2/25 (CHI) - (no real matchup game)
2/28 (DAL) - Roy-Roussel (54%)

3/1 (STL) - Backes-Schwartz-Oshie (61%)
3/3 (MIN) - Koivu-Parise-Coyle (60%)
3/5 (CBJ) - (no real matchup game) - 1 point
3/7 (DET) - Datsyuk-Abdelkader-Cleary (78%)
3/8 (NSH) - (no real matchup game)

He had 4 points in those 17 games, playing tough matchups without Horcoff

He has 6 points in 6 games when Horcoff has been in the line-up.
Here's who he spent the most time with in those games:
1/20 (VAN) - Andrew Ebbett
1/22 (SJS) - Logan Couture
1/24 (LAK) - M.Richards (trust me, much easier matchup than Kopitar)
1/26 (CGY) - Tanguay-Iginla-Glencross
1/28 (COL) - (no stats available)
3/10 (CHI) - Toews-Saad-Hossa (looked horrible)

And that, friends, is the Horcoff effect.
Nice Post.

TheNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:35 AM
  #108
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,773
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Teflon Shawn lives a charmed life. He has uplifted us the last 5 or 6 years from being so bad we are out of the league to just missing the playoffs or being last in the league.

- He can't score 5-5 at all.
- His fo% the last 3 years was below 50%
- His 'heavy lifting' has conisted of having probably the worst cumulative plus minus in the league the previosu 3 years.
- He never scores important goals.
- Unlike a 20 year old guy in Taylor Hall (who is true capt material) he never is accountable for his own play and always talks about the youth on the team when things are going bad.

He'll come back and the team will win 3 out of 10 rather than 2 out of 10 and he will be extolled as the great difference maker.

Yes we miss Horcules badly.
I allways thought the horcoff hate club had no clue.
It has been proven!
I hope horcoff continues to get the support he now has.

Facing 1st /2nd comp with even zone start.
He will continue to be the 1PPG he was post 04-05 lockout when he had the same teamates.

Continue to force RNH in the same Comp and Zone start as horcoff.
drive his numbers down for the next two years to get a cheaper 2nd contract.
beerfish and the other sheep can have a new center to complain about!

Bah! Bah!

EDIT: hows are PP now that he is in front of the net again.

oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:49 AM
  #109
calvinguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 304
vCash: 500
The team is 6-2-1 with Horcoff in the lineup, and 4-9-4 when he was injured.
10 goals in our last 2 games and a win against the best team in the league when he came back. Damn Horcoff you magician.

calvinguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:06 AM
  #110
PaperDesigner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 816
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Yes and no.

The role that Horcoff plays is more important than many of us think. Matching up against other teams best players when he has to, while also producing some offense, key faceoffs etc.

Problem is that Shawn Horcoff is actually quite poor in the role. He has been eaten alive the past few seasons against other teams top players. I've said this before, but anyone can go out there against a teams top players and perform poorly. That is what Shawn Horcoff has done. Now that has been important in that it has allowed some of our other centers to not have to be matched up against other top lines, but that doesn't mean Horcoff has done his job well. He's just taking all the abuse so someone else doesn't have to.

You look at a player like Martin Hanzal who can play the type of minutes Horcoff does and put up a similar level of offense. But he doesn't get absolutely destroyed at 5v5 doing it.
How much of that has to do with playing in front of one of worst goaltending groups and most shallow defence depth charts in the NHL in the past several season? Would Datsyuk have faired that much better in preventing goals with this group?

The problem with trying to evaluate Horcoff is that he is constantly in arguably the single most difficult position in the NHL--play the best with the least support and the worst available teammates in the NHL.

Maybe if he was in a better organization like Boston or New Jersey, he would still not look very good. But frankly, nobody is going to have a good plus minus in front of the 2009-2013 version of Khabibulin.

PaperDesigner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:09 AM
  #111
Jimmi Jenkins
Turtle Renji
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 39,266
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperDesigner View Post
How much of that has to do with playing in front of one of worst goaltending groups and most shallow defence depth charts in the NHL in the past several season? Would Datsyuk have faired that much better in preventing goals with this group?

The problem with trying to evaluate Horcoff is that he is constantly in arguably the single most difficult position in the NHL--play the best with the least support and the worst available teammates in the NHL.

Maybe if he was in a better organization like Boston or New Jersey, he would still not look very good. But frankly, nobody is going to have a good plus minus in front of the 2009-2013 version of Khabibulin.
Agreed on all points, and the Contract "ever present"

Jimmi Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:11 AM
  #112
Section337
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
If I were to make a comparison, I would say Horcoff is a $50 multi-purpose tool. He can do a number of things, but not as good the right, purpose built tool. Nor is he in the top of the multi-purpose tools, he's just better than a lot of the $10 jobbies we've had wear the Oilers' jersey in the last number of years. Never mind the numerous Dollar Store screwdriver's.

Too bad the Oilers' paid so much extra for the embossed leather carrying case.

Section337 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:12 AM
  #113
Senor Catface
Registered User
 
Senor Catface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Nepal
Posts: 6,224
vCash: 1937
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
I allways thought the horcoff hate club had no clue.
It has been proven!
I hope horcoff continues to get the support he now has.

Facing 1st /2nd comp with even zone start.
He will continue to be the 1PPG he was post 04-05 lockout when he had the same teamates.

Continue to force RNH in the same Comp and Zone start as horcoff.
drive his numbers down for the next two years to get a cheaper 2nd contract.
beerfish and the other sheep can have a new center to complain about!

Bah! Bah!

EDIT: hows are PP now that he is in front of the net again.
Horcoff > Crosby

- Oilerbear

Senor Catface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:47 AM
  #114
Arpeggio
Registered User
 
Arpeggio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,346
vCash: 500
Maybe he'll be our Brindamour after all. Brindamour had a couple off years before reemerging after the lockout.

Arpeggio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 08:46 AM
  #115
enthropi
Hiss Hiss (TKA) Hiss
 
enthropi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 3,888
vCash: 500
Woah, never too soon for mass ejacorsiculation on HFOil!
Almost NSFW in here...

enthropi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 09:13 AM
  #116
fuswald
I'd Be Fired
 
fuswald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 527
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by enthropi View Post
Woah, never too soon for mass ejacorsiculation on HFOil!
Almost NSFW in here...
English man, English. We're not in your brain

fuswald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 09:11 PM
  #117
Master Lok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,901
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperDesigner View Post
How much of that has to do with playing in front of one of worst goaltending groups and most shallow defence depth charts in the NHL in the past several season? Would Datsyuk have faired that much better in preventing goals with this group?

The problem with trying to evaluate Horcoff is that he is constantly in arguably the single most difficult position in the NHL--play the best with the least support and the worst available teammates in the NHL.

Maybe if he was in a better organization like Boston or New Jersey, he would still not look very good. But frankly, nobody is going to have a good plus minus in front of the 2009-2013 version of Khabibulin.
True (difficult to evaluate) but clearly the Oilers are better with him, than without him. I have RNH in my fantasy hockey pool and its noticeable for RNH's production when Horc is back in.

Master Lok is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 04:29 PM
  #118
Mowzie
Asst. Dishwasher
 
Mowzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Lebanon, Alberta
Country: Lebanon
Posts: 8,365
vCash: 500
Anyone catch Horcoff on Oilers Now? I only got bits and pieces of it, but apperantly it was a great interview as tons of people were texting and emailing how it was a great interview and one of the best interviews done in recent memory by a player.

From what I was able to hear, Horcoff talked as if it wasn't a radio interview but more like 2 friends talking about the game. If anyone caught it in entirety, maybe they can give us a quick summary.

Mowzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 04:49 PM
  #119
SeriousBusiness
T.Hall da man
 
SeriousBusiness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
I'm as big a Horc hater as anyone, but it sure as hell looks like we need him in our lineup. I have a new appreciation for him after seeing how poorly we playing without him when he was injured.

SeriousBusiness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 06:24 PM
  #120
Red Deer Rebel
Registered User
 
Red Deer Rebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mowzie View Post
Anyone catch Horcoff on Oilers Now? I only got bits and pieces of it, but apperantly it was a great interview as tons of people were texting and emailing how it was a great interview and one of the best interviews done in recent memory by a player.

From what I was able to hear, Horcoff talked as if it wasn't a radio interview but more like 2 friends talking about the game. If anyone caught it in entirety, maybe they can give us a quick summary.
I didn't catch the show today, but you can always listen to it here: http://www.630ched.com/Podcasts/Episodes.aspx?PID=2254

Reid Wilkins usually has the whole show posted within 2-3 hours.

Red Deer Rebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:38 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.