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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:06 PM
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Whatever, I don't want possibly misplaced praise of Stewart to derail the argument--EJ needs to be better in order for this trade to work out and the Avs to take that next step forward. We have a young centerman who is proving he has the talent and determination to take over games. EJ needs to take a page from Dutchy's book and do the same.
Agreed on the bolded.

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03-12-2013, 07:49 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I think Terry Frei nailed it on the head. As of right now, Erik Johnson has been "pretty good." If this trade is to work out for the Avs, he needs to be great. So far we've seen flashes of excellence, but nothing that says he's taken that next step.

Shattenkirk is a star. Stewart, though inconsistent as all hell, is a star. Both are one-dimensional stars, yes, but stars nonetheless. EJ has the talent and determination to be a star, but he's got to get the confidence.

I may be annoyed with the way some present the argument, but to say this trade was a success is still very, very premature.
That's just not correct. EJ has been a great defensemen for us, he hasn't been consistently dominant all over the ice, but that's not the role the team has put him in. He's being used to clean up for the morons on our blueline, and he's been great at that, while providing some sweet rushes up the ice, hopefully we put him next to a good defenseman one day and see how amazing he'd be in a more expansive role.

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03-12-2013, 07:50 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Whatever, I don't want possibly misplaced praise of Stewart to derail the argument--EJ needs to be better in order for this trade to work out and the Avs to take that next step forward. We have a young centerman who is proving he has the talent and determination to take over games. EJ needs to take a page from Dutchy's book and do the same.
The Avs need to get more out of EJ, that's different than EJ needing to be better.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:16 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
That's just not correct. EJ has been a great defensemen for us, he hasn't been consistently dominant all over the ice, but that's not the role the team has put him in. He's being used to clean up for the morons on our blueline, and he's been great at that, while providing some sweet rushes up the ice, hopefully we put him next to a good defenseman one day and see how amazing he'd be in a more expansive role.
He has been very good, has worked hard. But no, he has not been great. I don't question his ability, nor his character, nor his work ethic. But sooner or later he needs to figure out how to put it all together. And he hasn't done that. Make excuses all you want, write in however many factors you wish, he has not met expectations.

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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
The Avs need to get more out of EJ, that's different than EJ needing to be better.
Huh? Um, no, there's a bit of overlap there. Regardless of whatever depth or crappy defensive partners he may have, there's still been opportunity for him to show us what he's got. He hasn't yet. Will he? That remains to be seen. I'm not giving up on him by any means, but if you're gonna tell me he's played like a franchise defenseman, I'm going to tell you that you're flat-out wrong.

And I don't buy the argument that we will magically see him turn into this wonderful franchise defender he was supposed to be all along if we get him a solid defensive partner. If that were the case we'd see more from him regardless. The problem is not just the guy standing next to EJ on the blue line. It's him as well.

I'm fairly confident that the trade will work out. But it will be a failure if EJ does not meet his potential.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:29 PM
  #955
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I personally feel like what we see with EJ (during his stronger stretches) is pretty much what we'll get with him. He's nearly entering his prime years.

I think we will see a small elevation in his game if he's given a partner that complements him well and a coach that will lean on him more since like JJ, I think he's better when he's given more responsibility. However I'm not expecting some miraculous transformation.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:49 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Chris Stewart isn't a star in any shape, way or form. He's a one dimensional floater who has a tendency to go on hot streaks, then he disappears for weeks and he can't produce without good support around him
If we could describe another player last year - Matt Duchene, who could very easily be described as you have above - he was taking shifts off, was very streaky, didn't play good defense, etc. Then this offseason, he rededicated himself to both physical fitness and his team, and is massively breaking out this season.

And we have Chris Stewart, who this offseason did the exact same things as Duchene, and has had similar excellent results as Duchene. Yet, Matt Duchene is now an awesome hockey player come to light, while Chris Stewart is still an underachieving one-dimensional lazy this and that. Duchene's breakout is genuine. Stewart's breakout is false.

I do enjoy quality irony.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:51 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by AvalancheFan19 View Post
I disagree. With Johnson, we actually have a great defensemen. With Shattenkirk, we'd have a great offensive defensemen. Right now, we need Johnson.
I disagree. With Johnson, the Avs have a quality defensive defenseman. With Shattenkirk, the Blues have a quality offensive defenseman.

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Old
03-12-2013, 08:53 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I think Terry Frei nailed it on the head. As of right now, Erik Johnson has been "pretty good." If this trade is to work out for the Avs, he needs to be great. So far we've seen flashes of excellence, but nothing that says he's taken that next step.

Shattenkirk is a star. Stewart, though inconsistent as all hell, is a star. Both are one-dimensional stars, yes, but stars nonetheless. EJ has the talent and determination to be a star, but he's got to get the confidence.

I may be annoyed with the way some present the argument, but to say this trade was a success is still very, very premature.
This is an excellent post. Sums up the situation well. Especially the bolded part.

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Old
03-12-2013, 10:25 PM
  #959
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Im still waiting for Erik Johnson to do anything close to resembling a true #1 Dman.

So far, we got hosed on the trade. And it's not even close actually.

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Old
03-12-2013, 11:22 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Im still waiting for Erik Johnson to do anything close to resembling a true #1 Dman.

So far, we got hosed on the trade. And it's not even close actually.
Interesting. Why haven't you brought this up before...?

Seriously Heebs. It's getting a little bit silly you coming here and whining about the EJ trade after EVERY loss or whenever Shattenkirk or Stewart has scored a point for the Blues. EVERYBODY knows how you feel about that trade now. Ridiculous when you turn up after every loss looking for some angry-for-the-moment fans to back you up.


Last edited by RobinDIF: 03-12-2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old
03-12-2013, 11:40 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
Interesting. Why haven't you brought this up before...?

Seriously Heebs. It's getting a little bit silly you coming here and whining about the EJ trade after EVERY loss or whenever Shattenkirk or Stewart has scored a point for the Blues. EVERYBODY knows how you feel about that trade now. Ridiculous when you turn up after every loss looking for some angry-for-the-moment fans to back you up.
Funny how you make things up in your mind to try to convince you that the trade was not a complete burn.

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03-12-2013, 11:42 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Funny how you make things up in your mind to try to convince you that the trade was not a complete burn.
It's not about that. It's about you constantly bringing it up whenever Shatty and/or Stewart does a point or the Avs loss a game.

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Old
03-12-2013, 11:52 PM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Im still waiting for Erik Johnson to do anything close to resembling a true #1 Dman.

So far, we got hosed on the trade. And it's not even close actually.
I'm still waiting for a comment from you that is just a normal comment about something, rather than an extreme position on the same topics just to aggravate people.

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Old
03-13-2013, 12:42 AM
  #964
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Can people please stop quoting Heebs when they respond to him? Kinda negates the whole point of the ignore function.

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Old
03-13-2013, 12:46 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Can people please stop quoting Heebs when they respond to him? Kinda negates the whole point of the ignore function.
I second this. I want to come in this and see people's debates about Sherman's move, not see people quoting Heebs, who is much better under the ignore feature.

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03-13-2013, 12:59 AM
  #966
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm still waiting for a comment from you that is just a normal comment about something, rather than an extreme position on the same topics just to aggravate people.
His repeated posts may be annoying, but his position is most certainly not extreme. At this point in time and unless EJ vastly improves his offensive game, I completely agree with it.

Since trade: Shatt/Stewart: 153 points. EJ/McC: 59 points.

This season: Shatt/Stewart: 40 points. EJ: 2 points.

Simply indefensible.

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Old
03-13-2013, 12:59 AM
  #967
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However, I am enjoying the Parenteau signing. Good return so far.

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:01 AM
  #968
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
I second this. I want to come in this and see people's debates about Sherman's move, not see people quoting Heebs, who is much better under the ignore feature.
Fair enough. I just wanted to paint certain comments in the light which others might not have seen as you have. When others still respond as if they're actual debatable opinions, it tends to unnecessarily dominate the talk until people realize what they actually are.

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03-13-2013, 01:02 AM
  #969
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
His repeated posts may be annoying, but his position is most certainly not extreme. At this point in time and unless EJ vastly improves his offensive game, I completely agree with it.

Since trade: Shatt/Stewart: 153 points. EJ/McC: 59 points.

This season: Shatt/Stewart: 40 points. EJ: 2 points.

Simply indefensible.
You share an opinion on Sherman, but your motives are not the same. Hence the reason I can actually have a reasonable debate with you, and you also post comments on here about other topics that don't always center around the exact same subject.

To continue an actual intelectual conversation with you, it's nearly impossible to put into a stat or something similar which defines how importnat EJ is to the team defensively, and how with his raw talent to go along with that it's easier to build around him as a true top pairing defensemen, than it is to build around Shattenkirk as a true top pairing defensemen.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 03-13-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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03-13-2013, 01:08 AM
  #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
His repeated posts may be annoying, but his position is most certainly not extreme. At this point in time and unless EJ vastly improves his offensive game, I completely agree with it.

Since trade: Shatt/Stewart: 153 points. EJ/McC: 59 points.

This season: Shatt/Stewart: 40 points. EJ: 2 points.

Simply indefensible.
It's not really fair to compare points of a top 6 forward and an offensive defenceman, to those of a two-way defenceman and defensive forward. We'll away come out on the bottom in that scenario.

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:16 AM
  #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
His repeated posts may be annoying, but his position is most certainly not extreme. At this point in time and unless EJ vastly improves his offensive game, I completely agree with it.

Since trade: Shatt/Stewart: 153 points. EJ/McC: 59 points.

This season: Shatt/Stewart: 40 points. EJ: 2 points.

Simply indefensible.
Because EJ and McC were brought in to be offensive players? Trickle down theory is that without that trade this team would look a lot different. who knows where we draft, most likely no PAP, no McGinn, Sgar, Siemans.

Shatty probably putts up 80% (generous estimate) of those points due to having to play #1 D with the Avs. Stewart still floats around giving 75% effort most nights.

Its like saying that the Lindross deal was a bust for the Flyers. While Forsberg may have had more success, Eric revitalized that organization and the fan base.

Would the Avs be better today without that trade?-I can't say for sure either way.
Do I wish EJ was maximizing his potential?-Yes
Do I regret getting him for the pieces we did?-No, wish it could have been others, but you gotta give to get.

Hindsight is great, but its also a flawed view when looking only at the one moment.

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:19 AM
  #972
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
It's not really fair to compare points of a top 6 forward and an offensive defenceman, to those of a two-way defenceman and defensive forward.
Well, that's the trade that Sherman made. So 'fair' or not, the results are certainly comparable.

If you wish to weigh EJ's defense this season against a 38 point differential over 25 games (about a 125 point total, when prorated over an entire season), please be my guest. I suspect you'll find 125 points pretty hard to overcome by one guy's defense though.

Quote:
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We'll away come out on the bottom in that scenario.
Indeed.

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:22 AM
  #973
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
To continue an actual intelectual conversation with you, it's nearly impossible to put into a stat or something similar which defines how importnat EJ is to the team defensively,
Currently, the two StL guys are scoring at a pace that would eclipse EJ's scoring by over 120 points over the course of an entire season. Even ignoring for a moment that one of the two StL players is playing decent defense also, what possible defense could EJ be playing that could come close to making up 120 points of offense?

That's not so impossible to decipher, IMO.


Last edited by ABasin: 03-13-2013 at 01:27 AM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 01:31 AM
  #974
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Currently, the two StL guys are scoring at a pace that would eclipse EJ's scoring by over 120 points over the course of an entire season. What possible defense could EJ be playing that could come close to making up 120 points?
It very well may turn out to be a trade in St Louis' favor, but I see how it can be a one sided horrible trade, and you can't rely on offensive stats to determine that. There are other factors like the 11th overall pick that came back, and McClement who was a great defensive forward and PKer that was deadset on playing for Toronto for less month apparently. That 120 point number is pretty misleading too when you're comparing two current players, and ignoring the other elements of the deal, and with the small sample size, and EJ's concussion and being worked back into the lineup factoring in.

I maintain that Shattenkirk wouldn't have been the same player for the Avs that he is behind Pietrangelo, and a more well rounded D core in St Louis. Stewart as well has only been hot for two month, and the future like the entire last season, could turn cold again just like Jones was hot to end last year and looks like crap this year.

You need an EJ type two way top pairing guy, and you need a Shattenkirk type offensive guy, but the EJ type is harder to come by IMO, as there are lots of ways to bring offensie to the backened, but there aren't too many ways to bring EJ's all around game with some offense to boot on the top pairing. St Louis had the luxury of giving up EJ with Pietrangelo, but the Avs didn't.

If you need both, IMO it's much easier to find an offensive guy to play with EJ, than it is to find a two way guy to the level that EJ is. That's why I'm not freaking out over Shattenkirk putting up points, under a better coach on a better team, with a more well rounded D core where he's not asked to do everything like EJ is.

If Shattenkirk is here, he's probably not that far off from Barrie IMO trying to rush the puck and make plays, but not getting enough support.


Last edited by Foppa2118: 03-13-2013 at 01:39 AM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 01:43 AM
  #975
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Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?

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