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How close was Keith Tkachuk to Eric Lindros?

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Old
03-11-2013, 12:27 AM
  #1
DickSmehlik
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How close was Keith Tkachuk to Eric Lindros?

From what I would consider their primes.

Keith Tkachuk

1992-93 Winnipeg Jets 83GP 28G 23A 51P 201PIM
1993-94 Winnipeg Jets 84GP 41G 40A 81P 255PIM
1994-95 Winnipeg Jets 48GP 22G 29A 51P 152PIM
1995-96 Winnipeg Jets 76GP 50G 48A 98P 156PIM
1996-97 Phoenix Coyotes 81GP 52G 34A 86P 228PIM
1997-98 Phoenix Coyotes 69GP 40G 26A 66P 147PIM
1998-99 Phoenix Coyotes 68GP 36G 32A 68P 151PIM

Eric Lindros

1992-1993 Philadelphia Flyers 61GP 41G 34A 75P 147PIM
1993-94 Philadelphia Flyers 65GP 44G 53A 97P 103PIM
1994-95 Philadelphia Flyers 46GP 29G 41A 70P 60PIM
1995-96 Philadelphia Flyers 73GP 47G 68A 115P 163PIM
1996-97 Philadelphia Flyers 52GP 32G 47A 79P 136PIM
1997-98 Philadelphia Flyers 63GP 30G 41A 71P 134PIM
1998-99 Philadelphia Flyers 71GP 40G 53A 93P 120PIM


Living on the east coast, I didn't get to watch a lot of Jets/Coyotes games but from what I can recall, I remember there was a lot of respect for Tkachuk's game. I think people have forgotten what kind of player he was in his prime.

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03-11-2013, 12:40 AM
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Ed Wood
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He was on the tier of players below Lindros but he was very good. In my opinion Lindros belongs in the HOF but Tkachuk does not. Lindros was briefly considered the best player in the game.

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03-11-2013, 01:11 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Ed Wood View Post
He was on the tier of players below Lindros but he was very good. In my opinion Lindros belongs in the HOF but Tkachuk does not. Lindros was briefly considered the best player in the game.
What you say is true but Tkachuk is good enough to be a HHOF guy IMO.

I doubt he gets in but he is better than some in there already and is one of the top wingers in the 90's period.

Better than Steve Shutt or Bill Barber for example.

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03-11-2013, 02:21 AM
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the edler
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Tkachuk is good enough to be a HHOF guy IMO.
No, he didn't do enough. If he's in the HOF then a lot of players are, like LeClair, Fleury, Mogilny. I don't think he's much better than Bondra.

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03-11-2013, 02:37 AM
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They aren't the least bit close. Tkachuk is pretty underrated though.

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03-11-2013, 02:43 AM
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What you say is true but Tkachuk is good enough to be a HHOF guy IMO.

I doubt he gets in but he is better than some in there already and is one of the top wingers in the 90's period.

Better than Steve Shutt or Bill Barber for example.
If we set a standard of "better than the worst guys in", we're going to have 1,000 inducted members before long.

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03-11-2013, 08:54 AM
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Imagine the difference between Lucic and a prime Iginla.

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03-11-2013, 03:22 PM
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Big Phil
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I think Lindros was noticeably better. Career wise and peak wise. However, I'll give props to Tkachuk. Leading the NHL with 52 goals in 1997 and 228 PIM. That's a power forward if there ever was one. Around 1997 I think there were times when you could see Leclair or Tkachuk sort of push Lindros but it was always clear to me the player you wanted on your team was Lindros - drama and all. I felt in 1997 the best player in the game was Lemieux in his first retirement year, followed by the Lindros/Jagr/Kariya pack. Forsberg and Selanne are in the area too, but the rest were a notch below and that includes Tkachuk.

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03-11-2013, 03:46 PM
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Tkachuk was a bona fide top tier power forward, easily in the conversation for being the best in the game at that time along with the likes of Leclair and Shanahan. He was mean, scored a lot, and hit a lot. Not very bright . . . it was rather easy to get him to take stupid penalties. Surprising underwhelming in the playoffs, as his game seemed tailor made for that style of play.

Lindros was a clear level above him though. Bigger, stronger, and a better skater and playmaker. I think Lindros' skill is often overrated (he would been an average star if he had an average body), but compared to even the best power forwards he was indeed a step above them in the skill department. He was basically a first line power forward combined with a very good second line center. That combination is almost unheard of in the history of the NHL, which is why he was so dominant.

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03-11-2013, 03:53 PM
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BigKing
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Tkachuk is my all-time favorite player but he wasn't close to Lindros and, really, nobody was really close to Eric when he was healthy.

Tkachuk is definitely under rated due to his best years being in Winnipeg and Phoenix, his perceived poor perfomance in the playoffs and then his weight gain during the '04 Lockout. Younger posters on HF weren't able to witness his prime but they have been here to perpetuate the fat jokes to the point it's almost forgotten that he is the only US-born player to lead the league in goals and was a terror in the 90s.

As for the HHOF, he deserves to be in there. 500 goals and 1,000 points along with over 2,200 PIMS while playing the majority of his prime in the dead puck era. Led the league in goals in 96-97 while also racking up over 220 PIMS. Easily one of the best players in the league at standing in front of the net and tipping shots back when you had to be a man to stand in front of the net. Youngest captain in Jets history and a key memeber of the '96 US World Cup team, wearing an "A" while being the meanest guy on the team. Breaking Claude Lemieux's nose in front of the US bench should be looked at as one of the finer moments in hockey history

Guy was a stud who, unfortunately, played for a franchise during his prime that didn't get out of the first round of the playoffs until last season. Best shot they had was in 96-97 but lost in 7 to Anaheim but Tkachuk was a monster in that series. He gets a bad rap for his playoff performances, but he was great for Phoenix in what I believe was their best team during Tkachuk's time in Winnipeg/Phoenix. Not that Chicago was a juggernaut in the mid-90s, but I would have loved to see Winnipeg walk away from matching the offer sheet he signed with Chicago so he could have been a Hawk.

What could keep him out of the HHOF is the contract holdout(s) and the Nagano incident, although I don't believe anyone was officially fingered for the hotel room trashing.

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03-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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2,324 miles.

Or, closer than I thought.

In seriousness, this:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...01&postcount=2

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03-11-2013, 06:27 PM
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Lindros definitely had the better peak, but Tkachuk had longevity that Lindros didn't approach.

I remember every year during the 1990s, getting that damned issue of THN talking about "IQ", which was something like (goals x 3) + (penalty minutes - misconduct minutes). It always struck me as THN's way of hyping Tkachuk as one of the best in the league, even if it meant coming up with a dumb algorithm to do it.

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03-11-2013, 09:40 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
As for the HHOF, he deserves to be in there. 500 goals and 1,000 points along with over 2,200 PIMS while playing the majority of his prime in the dead puck era. Led the league in goals in 96-97 while also racking up over 220 PIMS. Easily one of the best players in the league at standing in front of the net and tipping shots back when you had to be a man to stand in front of the net. Youngest captain in Jets history and a key memeber of the '96 US World Cup team, wearing an "A" while being the meanest guy on the team. Breaking Claude Lemieux's nose in front of the US bench should be looked at as one of the finer moments in hockey history
I wouldn't put him in though. The goals look nice, and they were, but like Bondra he was another guy who didn't rack up a lot of assists, or even a lot of points at a HHOF level, even for his era.

Tkachuk had a brief peak and then sort of levelled off after a couple years in the 1990s. Just looked awkward in the postseason as well and it isn't the type of playoff resume I want to see in a HHOF player. Tkachuk seemed to take advantage of his reputation in his later years despite not really being a great player anymore. Atlanta picked him up in 2007 in the hopes that he would ignite a playoff run and I couldn't understand why.

The question you have to ask is who does Tkachuk open the door for if he is elected into the HHOF. I think there are a few and that isn't a good thing.

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03-11-2013, 10:15 PM
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DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think Lindros was noticeably better. Career wise and peak wise. However, I'll give props to Tkachuk. Leading the NHL with 52 goals in 1997 and 228 PIM. That's a power forward if there ever was one. Around 1997 I think there were times when you could see Leclair or Tkachuk sort of push Lindros but it was always clear to me the player you wanted on your team was Lindros - drama and all. I felt in 1997 the best player in the game was Lemieux in his first retirement year, followed by the Lindros/Jagr/Kariya pack. Forsberg and Selanne are in the area too, but the rest were a notch below and that includes Tkachuk.
This is pretty much what I was going to say. Glad you pointed out that 1997 season; its kind of forgotten about, but I believe that was the only time in league history a player led the league in goals and cracked the top ten in PIMs. Great season.

But yes, Lindros was just at a different level, although there were times (as a fan of Team Canada and some Western Conference teams) where Tkachuk WAS a genuinely scary presence.

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03-12-2013, 02:41 AM
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the edler
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This is pretty much what I was going to say. Glad you pointed out that 1997 season; its kind of forgotten about, but I believe that was the only time in league history a player led the league in goals and cracked the top ten in PIMs. Great season.

But yes, Lindros was just at a different level, although there were times (as a fan of Team Canada and some Western Conference teams) where Tkachuk WAS a genuinely scary presence.
What's so good about 220+ PIMs? I bet quite a lot of those PIMs were uncalled for. Isn't better to cut down on those and stay at say 150?

Yes, Tkachuk was so scary in the playoffs he lost three series being up 3-1

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03-12-2013, 03:53 PM
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What's so good about 220+ PIMs? I bet quite a lot of those PIMs were uncalled for. Isn't better to cut down on those and stay at say 150?

Yes, Tkachuk was so scary in the playoffs he lost three series being up 3-1
I need to run out and get a Phoenix Tkachuks jersey or a St. Louis Keiths one. I should probably look on Ebay first.

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03-12-2013, 06:51 PM
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Short answer: not.

But Tkachuk was a great player, no doubt. No one who saw him could forget the presence he had on the ice, how much skill he had for his size, nor how versatile he was (I'm pretty sure I've seen him at every forward position), and I certainly think those who never had the chance to see him are going to struggle to get an accurate picture by looking through pages of stats for similarly-sized guys with similar patterns in the limited number of countable events (i.e. NHL-tracked statistical categories) available to them. There was so much of an observable difference on the ice between the "classic" power forward and the "classic" skill player compared to today that's not necessarily captured in the stats.

Furthermore, it's hard to appreciate the impact/contribution of the best of those players (Tkachuk being one of them) if limited to the amount of video that seems to be publicly available on the interwebs. Consistency and leadership are almost certainly best witnessed, as opposed to deciphered out from stats sheets and/or anecdotal comments/praise in the media years later, or whatever.

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03-13-2013, 01:33 AM
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Big Phil
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What's so good about 220+ PIMs? I bet quite a lot of those PIMs were uncalled for. Isn't better to cut down on those and stay at say 150?

Yes, Tkachuk was so scary in the playoffs he lost three series being up 3-1
I don't know how good it is necessarily, but 228 PIM while scoring 52 goals shows that had he spent less time in the box he would have had more. Plus it at least shows you are involved on the ice, which we know Tkachuk was for sure. And no doubt he took some stupid penalties, but he had quite the edge to him back then as well and if you have that many PIM you are likely to get more room on the ice.

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03-13-2013, 02:42 AM
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I don't know how good it is necessarily, but 228 PIM while scoring 52 goals shows that had he spent less time in the box he would have had more. Plus it at least shows you are involved on the ice, which we know Tkachuk was for sure. And no doubt he took some stupid penalties, but he had quite the edge to him back then as well and if you have that many PIM you are likely to get more room on the ice.
I get that he was good at making room for himself on the ice but isn't it possible to do that without 228 PIMs? Especially when you have a linemate in Roenick who himself had 100+ PIMs? John LeClair was pretty good at making room for himself on the ice and he only had 64 PIMs at most in a season. LeClair had Lindros though who was on pace for a few 200+ seasons. But Todd Bertuzzi made a lot of room for himself and Näslund and he never had 150+ PIMs. Cam Neely made a lot of room for himself and had 175 and 190 at most. It's the lovefest for the number 200 that's a bit annoying.

Tkachuk's 96–67 season was very good but he "only" had 86 points in 81 games and didn't finish top 10 in points or even top 3 for LWs so it wasn't exactly like he set the league, or the world, on permanent fire.

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03-13-2013, 03:50 AM
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I need to run out and get a Phoenix Tkachuks jersey or a St. Louis Keiths one. I should probably look on Ebay first.
Im right in that boat with you buddy, I've been trying to find a Coyotes Tkachuk jersey for weeks now.

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03-13-2013, 05:18 AM
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This is pretty much what I was going to say. Glad you pointed out that 1997 season; its kind of forgotten about, but I believe that was the only time in league history a player led the league in goals and cracked the top ten in PIMs. Great season.

But yes, Lindros was just at a different level, although there were times (as a fan of Team Canada and some Western Conference teams) where Tkachuk WAS a genuinely scary presence.
several other players have led the NHL in goals and finished in top 10 in PIM, but only in a much smaller league.


maurice richard 4 times: '45, '50, '54, '55. he was 2nd in PIM in '54.

charlie conacher twice: '31 and '36

ted lindsay in '48, beliveau in '56, nels stewart in '26, lalonde in '19, punch broadbent in '22, gordie howe in '63


in '26, stewart was 2 PIM from leading the league in both PIM and goals.

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03-13-2013, 08:40 AM
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I recall attending Game 2 of the Blues-Sharks series in 2004 in San Jose. (Separately, this is still the worst refereed game I have ever seen at any level in my life.) Blues trailed by a goal with almost exactly two minutes to play, and down 1-0 in the series, needed desperately to use the final two minutes to stage any hope of getting back in the series. Scott Hannan had the puck at the center red line and dumped it in. Tkachuk took two full strides, the puck was already bouncing off the Blues' end boards, and Tkachuk just went out of his way to charge him right in front of the ref. Maybe the only good, obvious call in the game, obviously ending the game. I was blown away by the selfishness of it. The guy was making 10M/yr at the time and his NTC was the reason the Blues had to trade Pronger instead once the lockout ended.

Anyway, I can make a pretty good argument that Keith Tkachuk is the least clutch first line forward to ever play in the NHL. Nobody has been a first liner on more choking teams (THREE separate 3-1 chokes, and also a 3-2 choke.) After his third choke, a blown 3-1 had only happened 20 times ever and he'd been a major forward on 15% of them in all NHL history. Mind-boggling. Four game sevens, zero points. Zero tying or go ahead third-period goals in 85 playoff games (more than an entire season). When you look closely at when Tkachuk would score, he'd get a goal in a 6-0 blowout early in a series and then utterly disappear. His playoff goals were almost all irrelevant. He NEVER produced in the playoffs when it mattered. I say this not as a general statement but as someone who watched nearly all of those games and who has done the actual research. He was a selfish choker and he absolutely deserves the label. He was definitely worse than Joe Thornton in this regard. At the time of his retirement he had also earned over 70 million and ranked fourth on the all time money list.

I hated Eric Lindros, but he was easily better than Tkachuk.

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03-13-2013, 11:09 AM
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The guy was making 10M/yr at the time and his NTC was the reason the Blues had to trade Pronger instead once the lockout ended.
Hm, wasn't aware of this. Wasn't his holdout in Winnipeg also the reason the Jets had to trade Selänne?

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03-13-2013, 11:40 AM
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What's so good about 220+ PIMs? I bet quite a lot of those PIMs were uncalled for. Isn't better to cut down on those and stay at say 150?

Yes, Tkachuk was so scary in the playoffs he lost three series being up 3-1
Used to be a badge of honor but not with this new generation of viewers that frown on physical play.

How about

Shanahan 52 goals 211 PIM

K Stevens 54 goals 254 PIM

G Roberts 53 goals 207 PIM

Does it make what Tkachuk did more impressive or still a mistake prone goon?

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03-13-2013, 12:07 PM
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Used to be a badge of honor but not with this new generation of viewers that frown on physical play.

How about

Shanahan 52 goals 211 PIM

K Stevens 54 goals 254 PIM

G Roberts 53 goals 207 PIM

Does it make what Tkachuk did more impressive or still a mistake prone goon?
I don't think physical play has anything to do with it. Someone like Theo Fleury managed to be fairly productive without having extremely high PIM totals (although he got up there a couple of times). Wendel Clark was over 250 his first two years, then never over 200 again (in fact, only over 150 once more). In Cam Neely's three 50-goal seasons, his PIM totals were 117, 98, and 54. Jeremy Roenick's career high was 130.

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