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Hamilton III: There's A New Sheriff In Town

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Old
03-13-2013, 10:43 AM
  #176
GuelphStormer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
And like I said, the Conference Board of Canada has a very conservative approach. No other group has that limited a view of Canadian NHL expansion.

I never said KW would get a team now, I said they will/should in 15/20 years when an arena is built. If KW had an arena, they would like have an A rating.

And it doesn't matter what they think the owner of Toronto 2 will be. They think it's the best location.
no. read the two reports again. neither one suggests that gta2 is the best location.

one says hamilton is better. and the other says gta2 is only slightly better than hamilton IF they play in the acc and are owned by mlse (ie., absurdly ignoring all costs associated with any new arena, as well as any and all turf battles)

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03-13-2013, 10:49 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Indirectly, what would that do to the current revenue sharing dynamic?
It would actually very likely increase the the amount the teams (mostly from the big revenue/market teams) pay into Revenue Sharing - it would just shuffle around the contributors and recipients.

The League is committed to paying 6.055% of HRR(*) - higher HRR, higher revenue sharing.

(*) Up to the amount necessary to make up the difference between 50% of Club's revenues (excluding playoff revenue) and the cap midpoint for every recipient.

edit: A hypothetical increase in HRR of $60M from a move from Phoenix (the delta between Phoenix and Vancouver in the Forbes #'s) would increase the cap midpoint by $1M and the floor by $850K. The increased HRR would increase the aggregate revenue sharing needs of the recipient teams by $15M, but provide only an increase of $3.93M in revenue sharing funds.


Last edited by kdb209: 03-13-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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03-13-2013, 10:51 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
no. read the two reports again. neither one suggests that gta2 is the best location.

one says hamilton is better. and the other says gta2 is only slightly better than hamilton IF they play in the acc and are owned by mlse (ie., absurdly ignoring all costs associated with any new arena, as well as any and all turf battles)
I don't know. I just want a second team here. Toronto, Hamilton, K-W it does not matter it will make money.

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03-13-2013, 04:55 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
no. read the two reports again. neither one suggests that gta2 is the best location.

one says hamilton is better. and the other says gta2 is only slightly better than hamilton IF they play in the acc and are owned by mlse (ie., absurdly ignoring all costs associated with any new arena, as well as any and all turf battles)
What? So when the article that states only Quebec City and Hamilton are viable markets in Canada (But niether would be a top tier market, both would be on the lowest end of viable markets), that's calling it the best. But when the article says Toronto 2 is the best, it's not because there's not a large gap?

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03-13-2013, 06:32 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
The increased HRR would increase the aggregate revenue sharing needs of the recipient teams by $15M, but provide only an increase of $3.93M in revenue sharing funds.
... thanks for doing the math on that & breaking it down kdb. Suspected as much. Contributions would have to increase accordingly, and that certainly wouldnt be greeted with much enthusiasm.... An artificial system requiring strict controls including maintaining the temperatures on average franchise values. I once had some fake plants, but they died because I wouldnt pretend I was watering them, giving them sunshine. Better Gary shouldnt make such mistakes. I was devastated.

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03-13-2013, 06:58 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... thanks for doing the math on that & breaking it down kdb. Suspected as much. Contributions would have to increase accordingly, and that certainly wouldnt be greeted with much enthusiasm.... An artificial system requiring strict controls including maintaining the temperatures on average franchise values. I once had some fake plants, but they died because I wouldnt pretend I was watering them, giving them sunshine. Better Gary shouldnt make such mistakes. I was devastated.
Sorry to hear about your plants, man. That's rough.

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03-13-2013, 07:32 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
Sorry to hear about your plants, man. That's rough.
Quite alright. They were already dead... still, two Zombies eating a Clown, one asking the other "does this taste funny to you"? So, I mean, who really knows? In most walks of life what the league pulls, the ways its setup, its called larceny. In the NHL its called Revenue Sharing, Parity.... Wednesday. Friday. Business as usual.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:40 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
.


Why? Because you said so? There is not even close to twice as many potential STH in the GHA than Waterloo Region + Guelph. That's an absurd claim. Right now Waterloo Region + Guelph and surrounding area is about 650,000. The metro Hamilton area is 720,000. Waterloo Region + Guelph is growing faster than Hamilton. The argument against this is the GTA is part of the GHA too but this would only be the the far eastern parts of the GTA, not the GTA proper.

Hamilton is in a market served by two NHL teams, Buffalo and Toronto. And a Kitchener team would grab part of London because it's on the 401, which is navigatable in the winter. It would certainly grab Woodstock.

I never said it could host an NHL market now, but it will eventually. Within 20 years it'll be in better shape than Hamilton is now, without a declining market on its doorstep trying to protect its market. Population of Waterloo and the surrounding area should be around a million by 2030, with similar business and corporate support to Hamilton. Back when Basille tried to move a team to Hamilton, they explored a Plan B where if they couldn't take control of Copps, they would explore trying to build an arena in Kitchener. They won't pay for an arena now, but what makes you think they won't in 15-20 years? The AUD should have been replaced already, and the longer it goes without being replaced the more likely its replacement will be a full sized arena.


KW to Guelph is roughly half hour drive. If you're adding an area that far apart shouldn't you do the same for Hamilton? Mississauga oakville Milton brantford.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:46 PM
  #184
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One little tidbit that is NHL related...

POST HECFI: New entertainment boss has high hopes for Hamilton

One of the questions posted to new Copps General Manager Scott Warren...

Quote:
Can your company help Hamilton get an NHL team?

This building was built to bring an NHL team and people here are passionate about hockey. I canít speak to whether the company will help pursue an NHL team. The potential of an arena in Markham throws an interesting wrench in the plans.
Got to love ambiguity. Could mean that one is on the way as we speak or no way in hell, we're not saying because we don't want to get lynched. And why is Markham an interesting wrench?

I wonder if the NHL is actually powered by wild speculation. It could explain so much...

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03-19-2013, 12:12 AM
  #185
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^^^ Well, he clearly contradicts himself; "I cant speak as to whether or not the company will help pursue a team"... then closes with "Markham throws a wrench into those plans". Not even going to ask if they have plans to bring a team to Copps because he's just admitted they do. Ambiguous Doc? Lying liars and the language that they use. So repeat after me Mr. Warren; Im good enough. Im smart enough. And doggone it, people like me. Now tell the truth. Start again. From the top.... forget the cornpone, were not Hillbillys, and do try to emote just a little bit will ya.... Bad Actor. Is he a Canadian? Hired for the tax credits?


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03-19-2013, 12:24 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Well, he clearly contradicts himself; "I cant speak as to whether or not the company will help pursue a team"... then closes with "Markham throws a wrench into those plans". Not even going to ask if they have plans to bring a team to Copps because he's just admitted they do. Ambiguous Doc? Lying liars and the language that they use. So repeat after me Mr. Warren; Im good enough. Im smart enough. And doggone it, people like me. Now tell the truth. Start again. From the top.... forget the cornpone, were not Hillbillys, and do try to emote just a little bit will ya.... Bad Actor. Is he a Canadian? Hired for the tax credits?
I don't see a contradiction. He might be referring to general plans to bring an NHL team to Hamilton that his company may or may not be helping with. There could be groups pursuing an NHL team that would eventually rent Copps, but the company running the arena is not helping with that pursuit.

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03-19-2013, 01:56 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
I don't see a contradiction. He might be referring to general plans to bring an NHL team to Hamilton that his company may or may not be helping with. There could be groups pursuing an NHL team that would eventually rent Copps, but the company running the arena is not helping with that pursuit.
I find it rather hard to believe that Global-Spectrum wouldnt just love to have an NHL rather than an AHL franchise playing out of the building they now manage, as it would result in millions from the city, province & new ownership in upgrades & renovations to the facility; advertising & sponsorship revenues, suite sales & everything else multiplying about 40 fold or more from its current state. That they wouldnt in fact try to facilitate & expedite matters, lobbying the BOG's, flying the flag, pushing that very agenda.

They have, in winning the Management Contract put themselves squarely in the crosshairs, as any owner wanting to purchase a team and relocate (or via Expansion) a team to Hamilton will now have to deal GS & LiveNation in addition to dealing directly with the City of Hamilton pursuant to Copps up-grades, which would just have to include the Arena Management firm as well. And what kind of a Lease or "rental agreement" can an NHL team expect? Will they receive all of the revenues from possible naming rights, advertising & sponsorships, a piece of concessions etc etc etc? The usual things most franchises require in order to turn maximum rev's? Or will GS in fact be a "partner" of sorts?

Its a tangled web, and to suggest that GS isnt quite likely engaged in looking to seriously maximize profits out of Copps in securing an NHL franchise through whatever ownership groups out there simply doesnt add up. The buildings a giant ATM with the NHL. Without it, a 3rd tier concert & event venue with modest potential in need of some expensive upgrades. An AHL franchise with tepid & transitory, bordering on apathetic interest in the team in a sophisticated hockey market who demand & will not respond to anything less than top of shelf. So ya, "contradictory". I linked & read the entire article, searched & read more. Similar statements from all involved. Is Scott Warren a Plausible or Implausible Deniability Expert? I say Implausible, you think its Plausible. Hopefully Im right, your wrong, but happy, ecstatic that you are.... wrong that is, as we continue to watch the developments, and hopefully, one bright sunny day soon, the NHL decides to smarten right up & get this done.

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03-19-2013, 10:19 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well, he clearly contradicts himself; "I cant speak as to whether or not the company will help pursue a team"... then closes with "Markham throws a wrench into those plans".
In regards to the proposed markham arena...
Quote:
U.S.-based Global Spectrum, the proposed arena operator, has confirmed it will cover any operating losses.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013..._drags_on.html''

I wonder how MLSE looks at that. No losses for the Markham arena are a no brainier with an NHL team. If no NHL, and the arena gets built with that assurance from GS, then what does that mean to ACC's concert business? Might that, as I've been hoping, lead MLSE to support Copps as host to any 2nd southern Ontario NHL team with the objective of thwarting any potential arena competition from elsewhere in the GTA?

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03-19-2013, 02:45 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
I wonder how MLSE looks at that. No losses for the Markham arena are a no brainier with an NHL team. If no NHL, and the arena gets built with that assurance from GS, then what does that mean to ACC's concert business? Might that, as I've been hoping, lead MLSE to support Copps as host to any 2nd southern Ontario NHL team with the objective of thwarting any potential arena competition from elsewhere in the GTA?
I think you answered your own question. Fact is, I for one do not like the cut of Graeme Roustans jib, however, since when has bad character ever been a hindrance to admission in the NHL? I cant imagine MLSE is at all enamoured with the idea of a competing venue within practically spitting distance straight up the DVP, hanging a right onto the 401, left & north up Kennedy Road, short drive & BANG there ye' be. Roustan / GS will have to start offering Guaranteed Appearance & Performance Fee's in order to book 'A' List Acts, ruthless Promoters then telling the ACC to better it or see ya, downtown location with public transit access be damned. Escalate real fast. In fact, Im not wondering if the powers that be arent somewhat ticked at Snider & Global altogether. I certainly would be. Moving into my territory and rather brazenly. Hamilton AND Markham? Excuse me?

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03-19-2013, 03:09 PM
  #190
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KW to Guelph is roughly half hour drive. If you're adding an area that far apart shouldn't you do the same for Hamilton? Mississauga oakville Milton brantford.
I'll give you Oakville and probably Brantford because the traffic isn't that bad but not Missasauga and Milton. On a perfect day from an area on the highway sure, but from the big housing developments deep into those cities and departure time between 4:00-6:00? Could take you an hour, probably longer.

Traffic isn't nice between Guelph and Kitchener either but I can get there in peak hours within 30-40 minutes. But once Highway 7 is upgraded to a freeway (Which will happen in the next 10-15 years) that distance could be cut down to 15-20 minutes. The hardest part getting to Guelph is you either need to take the back roads (Highway 7) or go off the 401.

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03-19-2013, 03:17 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I'll give you Oakville and probably Brantford because the traffic isn't that bad but not Missasauga and Milton. On a perfect day from an area on the highway sure, but from the big housing developments deep into those cities and departure time between 4:00-6:00? Could take you an hour, probably longer.

Traffic isn't nice between Guelph and Kitchener either but I can get there in peak hours within 30-40 minutes. But once Highway 7 is upgraded to a freeway (Which will happen in the next 10-15 years) that distance could be cut down to 15-20 minutes. The hardest part getting to Guelph is you either need to take the back roads (Highway 7) or go off the 401.
milton is a wash, its that same distance to either KW or hamilton (remember the 407?). and really, so is guelph. but certainly burlington, oakville, brantford and grimsby are the same level of drive to the hammer as any of the outer regions you suggest are to kw. one could even argue that cambridge is easy enough to get to the hammer.

there is no issue with a sufficient population base in close proximity to a potential nhl team in hamilton. none whatsoever. now or 20 years from now.

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03-19-2013, 03:54 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
milton is a wash, its that same distance to either KW or hamilton (remember the 407?). and really, so is guelph. but certainly burlington, oakville, brantford and grimsby are the same level of drive to the hammer as any of the outer regions you suggest are to kw. one could even argue that cambridge is easy enough to get to the hammer.

there is no issue with a sufficient population base in close proximity to a potential nhl team in hamilton. none whatsoever. now or 20 years from now.
I never said there was. I said the other potential markets which I think are more attractive for the league do not have that problem either.

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03-19-2013, 08:38 PM
  #193
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I never said there was. I said the other potential markets which I think are more attractive for the league do not have that problem either.
Well it's certainly not Waterloo Region. It's not the economical dynamo that you think it is. It also isn't going to be growing at the rate you think it will. There is simply not enough water capacity available to support the population we have, we certainly can't have more people added to the region. We are already in a perpetual state of water rationing. We're not like Hamilton were we can draw as much water as we need from a large fresh water lake. At no point will there be a time when Waterloo Region will be able to host an NHL team...

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03-20-2013, 09:33 AM
  #194
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Well it's certainly not Waterloo Region. It's not the economical dynamo that you think it is. It also isn't going to be growing at the rate you think it will. There is simply not enough water capacity available to support the population we have, we certainly can't have more people added to the region. We are already in a perpetual state of water rationing. We're not like Hamilton were we can draw as much water as we need from a large fresh water lake. At no point will there be a time when Waterloo Region will be able to host an NHL team...
At first I thought you were being serious. Glad I re tooled this post before I bit the hook.

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03-20-2013, 01:29 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
At first I thought you were being serious. Glad I re tooled this post before I bit the hook.
Well, what do you mean by that? Are you unaware of the crisis facing the region, indeed, the entire Great Lakes Basin? Dangerously close to seeing a return to Dust Bowl like conditions, possible complete economic meltdown as a result of the beyond scary drops in water levels & tables from Superior to Lake Ontario. Georgian Bay, Huron & Michigan in full on damage control mode. No one really understanding why, let alone what to do about it. EvilDoc's point is perfectly valid. Demonstrates a transcendent awareness of the many issues that would negate your rosy optimism that KW's going to wind up as some sort of powerhouse of economic prosperity. The HT sector out theres already taken a huge hit. I dont see that rebounding as companies flock to places like Silicon Valley, Halifax, Vancouver etc. As a centre of academia & light manufacturing, a bedroom community to other areas sure, it'll continue to see modest growth, but nothing on the scale your projecting.

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03-20-2013, 01:55 PM
  #196
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Well, what do you mean by that? Are you unaware of the crisis facing the region, indeed, the entire Great Lakes Basin? Dangerously close to seeing a return to Dust Bowl like conditions, possible complete economic meltdown as a result of the beyond scary drops in water levels & tables from Superior to Lake Ontario. Georgian Bay, Huron & Michigan in full on damage control mode. No one really understanding why, let alone what to do about it. EvilDoc's point is perfectly valid. Demonstrates a transcendent awareness of the many issues that would negate your rosy optimism that KW's going to wind up as some sort of powerhouse of economic prosperity. The HT sector out theres already taken a huge hit. I dont see that rebounding as companies flock to places like Silicon Valley, Halifax, Vancouver etc. As a centre of academia & light manufacturing, a bedroom community to other areas sure, it'll continue to see modest growth, but nothing on the scale your projecting.
to be honest, im not sure who is being serious here ... but growth demands on existing natural and built infrastructures was most certainly explored during development of places to grow. and indeed the region of waterloo itself has indicated that will likely be unable to meet the 35% to 40% growth targets by 2031 without consideration of an additional water supply: namely a lake erie pipeline by 2035 at the latest. i agree that Faidh ar Rud Eigin does seem to think the region will grow at a rate higher than that mandated by the province.

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03-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #197
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No its not. Water is absolutely not a problem and the high tech industry is growing not contracting. I don't know where you got the idea that companies are leaving.

Your post makes it seem like the region is not only losing people, but that it has no growth, economically or population, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

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03-20-2013, 02:12 PM
  #198
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No its not. Water is absolutely not a problem and the high tech industry is growing not contracting. I don't know where you got the idea that companies are leaving. Your post makes it seem like the region is not only losing people, but that it has no growth, economically or population, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
Well sure its growing, will continue to grow, in fact I wish it the very best as I have close multi-generational ties to that area, just west in Paris. But water is a problem as both Doc & guelphstormer point out. Youve got aggregate companies all over Brant County, east & north of you guys who decades ago bought & then leased back huge swaths of agricultural land, those leases & purchase options falling due. That sort of open pit type extraction causes all kinds of problems in the aquifer, ground & well water. Now if you also consider the precipitous drops in the Great Lakes, Erie soon to be affected, water costs will absolutely spike right through the roof, stunting growth, infrastructure unable to meet let alone carry the kind of demand via development your suggesting, as without those numbers being hit, I surely dont see the NHL coming to town.

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03-20-2013, 02:24 PM
  #199
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KW to Guelph is roughly half hour drive. If you're adding an area that far apart shouldn't you do the same for Hamilton? Mississauga oakville Milton brantford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I'll give you Oakville and probably Brantford because the traffic isn't that bad but not Missasauga and Milton. On a perfect day from an area on the highway sure, but from the big housing developments deep into those cities and departure time between 4:00-6:00? Could take you an hour, probably longer.

Traffic isn't nice between Guelph and Kitchener either but I can get there in peak hours within 30-40 minutes. But once Highway 7 is upgraded to a freeway (Which will happen in the next 10-15 years) that distance could be cut down to 15-20 minutes. The hardest part getting to Guelph is you either need to take the back roads (Highway 7) or go off the 401.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
milton is a wash, its that same distance to either KW or hamilton (remember the 407?). and really, so is guelph. but certainly burlington, oakville, brantford and grimsby are the same level of drive to the hammer as any of the outer regions you suggest are to kw. one could even argue that cambridge is easy enough to get to the hammer.

there is no issue with a sufficient population base in close proximity to a potential nhl team in hamilton. none whatsoever. now or 20 years from now.
FWIW - Just had a great meeting with a client rep who is from Milton. Read these off to her and she agreed with Faidh's assessment

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03-20-2013, 02:40 PM
  #200
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Just had a great meeting with a client rep who is from Milton. Read these off to her...
I see. So. Your using your free Membership here at hf to win clients & make money...
I very much approve. Creative, clever, Scottish. Doesnt cost you dime one.

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