HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Barrie back to Lake Erie

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-13-2013, 01:02 AM
  #51
BrickAHL
#AvaloungeRevolution
 
BrickAHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzai12 View Post
Barrie is the new Holos.
except he is 10x better.

BrickAHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:43 AM
  #52
cgf
Registered User
 
cgf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,551
vCash: 500
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?

cgf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:50 AM
  #53
The Kingslayer
Registered User
 
The Kingslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Yuck horse piss!
Country: Cambodia
Posts: 23,372
vCash: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?
Sure seems fishy ask me

The Kingslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:52 AM
  #54
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm asking for the mob to come down upon me by defending my point, so I'll once again point out that I don't really agree with sending him down, or not playing him.

Your point makes sense too, most of the Avs D aren't playing that well defensively either, and there's no reason Hunwick should be playing over Barrie.

I really do think that style he was playing couldn't be sustained though, and you could see in his last couple games it was starting to catch up to him a bit. He wasn't as successful in his transition game, and he was starting to get burned defensively.

I'm surprised they sent him down, but I think SOB has been playing better, and EJ and Wilson are back now, and with Hejduk apparently close to returning it's either keep 8 D and only one extra forward, or send down vet guys like Hunwick, Zanon, or O'Byrne on one way deals.

I have a feeling a trade will happen soon involving one of the D, and open up a spot for him soon, so maybe it's better that he's playing, rather than continuing to sit in the box like Sacco seems to love to do.
God I hope so. As far as his defensive play goes, it's clear his one-on-one play needs work, but he appeared to be improving. I won't hold some shaky play against Patricks Sharp and Kane against him too much.

As Jibblescribbits tries to illustrate, his defensive play may be a bit suspect, but he more than made up for it by improving the Avs' possession #s by a healthy margin.

http://www.jibblescribbits.com/2013-...ncompoops.html

On the opposite end, Ryan O'Byrne more or less ruins them.

And having so many forwards who actually pay attention to defense allowed Barrie to cheat a little more than usual. He certainly picks better spots to pinch than O'Brien or Hejda, the latter of whom might be the worst in the league in that regard.

Seriously, I hope this is precipitating a trade of one of the pylons, because we are right back to the same defense that simply didn't work to start the season. And much as I think having O'Reilly back changes that dynamic significantly, he can't make up for an abhorrent lack of skill on the blueline.

Av-merican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:53 AM
  #55
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?
That would explain a few things.

Av-merican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 01:56 AM
  #56
AslanRH
#RespectTheCliche
 
AslanRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wyoming, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,124
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
God I hope so. As far as his defensive play goes, it's clear his one-on-one play needs work, but he appeared to be improving. I won't hold some shaky play against Patricks Sharp and Kane against him too much.

As Jibblescribbits tries to illustrate, his defensive play may be a bit suspect, but he more than made up for it by improving the Avs' possession #s by a healthy margin.

http://www.jibblescribbits.com/2013-...ncompoops.html

On the opposite end, Ryan O'Byrne more or less ruins them.

And having so many forwards who actually pay attention to defense allowed Barrie to cheat a little more than usual. He certainly picks better spots to pinch than O'Brien or Hejda, the latter of whom might be the worst in the league in that regard.

Seriously, I hope this is precipitating a trade of one of the pylons, because we are right back to the same defense that simply didn't work to start the season. And much as I think having O'Reilly back changes that dynamic significantly, he can't make up for an abhorrent lack of skill on the blueline.
They have skills, just not the kind you need to be a good Defenseman.

ROB-Cross checking in clear view of an official
Hunwick- Modeling
Zanon- Beard Growing and Dome Shaving

Skills I tell you!

AslanRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 02:00 AM
  #57
PAZ
.
 
PAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,861
vCash: 500
Why would Sherman need permission to to fire Sacco? Even if it's done by committee, he doesn't need to make up a reason to fire him, he already has plenty.

Obviously Sherman has an inside deal with the league, wants a top 10 pick to make it look less rigged when the Avs win first overall

PAZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 02:59 AM
  #58
dahrougem2
Registered User
 
dahrougem2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?
Or maybe Sherman is trying to prove how much of a genius he is by signing Zanon and O'Brien, and trading for Hunwick and O'Byrne and doesn't want them getting shown up by some rookie, he'll be damned if that happens I tell ya! Send that Tyson kid back to the minors!

Or maybe Sherman is trying to think of an excuse for Sacco losing so much so he decides not to ice the best team but disguises it and tries to make people forget Barrie was even here at all by not recalling him for the rest of the season, and we lost a lot more so Sacco can be fired

Or Sherm the Worm just has no idea what he's doing and should go back to Accounting

dahrougem2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 04:46 AM
  #59
Freudian
Deja vu again?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 31,359
vCash: 0
This isn't a Sherman thing. It's a Sacco thing. Sacco isn't going to play him so Sherman has to send him down to AHL so Barrie doesn't rot in the press box.

It screams of a coach being afraid of losing his job and playing veterans over a more talented kid because he trusts the veterans more, ignoring that the veterans are largely useless.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 08:53 AM
  #60
Ceremony
Moderator
like a collar
 
Ceremony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 78,671
vCash: 20350
Tank on!

__________________
ďItís embarrassing. Iím embarrassed to be here right now. Itís not even funny. And itís just embarrassing, the way we, you know, the energy we have in the room and the way we approach practices and the way we approach this game. Itís not how youíre going to win any games in this league." - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, April 8 2013
Ceremony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 10:03 AM
  #61
ABasin
Beer is good food
 
ABasin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,245
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?
I think it's more likely that Sherman might be trying to make sure that he never overpays for a bridge contract again.

ABasin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 10:13 AM
  #62
WornWithPride
24 cups? Who cares.
 
WornWithPride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Town in Country
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,934
vCash: 500
I guess a very small bright side is that Hejduk will probably be off IR and playing soon...
Problem is 7 Ds, 5 of which are #6 defenseman on every other team (or nearly) and all of which have one way contracts. So I guess sherman had a choice to make. Olver, Bordeleau (which i think is two way... correct me if im wrong) or Barrie. Evidently he wants Barrie playing top minutes which he wasn't doing from the press box.

WornWithPride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 10:14 AM
  #63
Bender
TheHockeyProspector
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Have we ever considered that Greg Sherman might be trying to make sure Sacco doesn't make the playoffs so that he's given permission to fire Sacco in the summer? Thus the hardline on ROR and clogging Barrie and co.'s path into the NHL with ****** defenders?
It's been discussed at length already by myself and several others. Substitute the name of Pierre Lacroix for Sherman though.

As has been mentioned countless times, Sacco has demonstrated that he is a poor coach that has underachieved with a talented roster. [There are teams out there doing way BETTER with much less] Coaches have been fired for much, MUCH less and if I was in charge and watching this team play, especially against our own division, he would have been sent packing long ago.

Last night's game was the teams opportunity to say to the rest of the league "look out, here we come" but instead they said "heh...whatever".

I've been saying for a long while now that neither Joe Sacco nor Greg Sherman would have ever had the chance to become NHL Head Coach/GM with another organization. Sacco had a poor, losing record in the AHL as assistant and head coach and Greg Sherman was in charge of running the business side of things with the Avs, not Hockey Ops.

Sherman is a figure head that deals with the media and runs the day-to-day but the major moves, player/coach decisions are still Lacroixs to make, in my opinion. Of course, they'll deny it but I'm quite certain that's the way it's been set up.

As far as Sacco goes, with the team sitting in 24th spot overall, I can't imagine how any FO would be happy with how he's handled the team. Like I've said numerous times, if his only strategies are 'dump and chase' and 'outwork the opposition', it's pretty easy to imagine how stale that message has gotten. Hell, if that's what it takes to be an NHL coach, I can do that too.

I think management (Lacroix) is all too aware of what's going on but he knows we have some big holes to fill long-term and probably need 1 more piece on D before everything comes together. The fan side of me wants them to fire Sacco and hire Roy so that this team can start to TAKE OFF RIGHT NOW but unfortunately, I think they'll let him finish the year before making the change.

We have 23 games left and need to win approximately 15 of them, if not more. There is nothing in the previous 25 games that we've played so far under Sacco that would suggest we are capable of doing this. So my guess is, we're going to be sellers at the trade deadline and hopefully end up with a good pick at this year's draft.

Bender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 10:16 AM
  #64
Stories
Hockey scientist
 
Stories's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bethesda, MD
Country: United States
Posts: 6,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WornWithPride View Post
I guess a very small bright side is that Hejduk will probably be off IR and playing soon...
Problem is 7 Ds, 5 of which are #6 defenseman on every other team (or nearly) and all of which have one way contracts. So I guess sherman had a choice to make. Olver, Bordeleau (which i think is two way... correct me if im wrong) or Barrie. Evidently he wants Barrie playing top minutes which he wasn't doing from the press box.
Sadly, at some point, you have to learn to play against NHL competition. Playing awesomely against undeveloped talent (the young 1st and 2nd year players) and long-shots (AHL vets) isn't the way to get better against NHL talent. Barrie is clearly a NHL caliber player and too good to be in the AHL at this point. I think this is the biggest issue I have with what's happening.

Stories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 11:07 AM
  #65
WornWithPride
24 cups? Who cares.
 
WornWithPride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Town in Country
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,934
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stories View Post
Sadly, at some point, you have to learn to play against NHL competition. Playing awesomely against undeveloped talent (the young 1st and 2nd year players) and long-shots (AHL vets) isn't the way to get better against NHL talent. Barrie is clearly a NHL caliber player and too good to be in the AHL at this point. I think this is the biggest issue I have with what's happening.
Just to clarify, my post shifts the blame from Sherman to Sacco... Since Sherman saw Sacco wasn't playing Barrie, he saw it fit to send him to the AHL.

WornWithPride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 11:09 AM
  #66
R S
Renegade Stylings
 
R S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24,062
vCash: 190
Not too surprised. A couple back to back tough games for the kid and he gets booted back down. Coaches need to have confidence in their players. If Barrie wasn't going to be playing, then he might as well be playing in the AHL.

Not agreeing with Sacco in ANY way, as it's the wrong decision in my opinion, I just want the kid to play regardless of what level it's at.

R S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 11:18 AM
  #67
chet1926
Registered User
 
chet1926's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Country: United States
Posts: 4,116
vCash: 500
Welcome to the world of politics in professional sports.

Barrie on two way contract, making 900K, since he is not waiver eligible can easily be moved to the minors without fear of losing the player.

On the other hand Hunwick, O'Bryne, Zanon, and O'Brien are all on one way contracts all making at least 1M, are waiver eligible and management doesn't want a player making 2M playing in Lake Erie.

Its a pretty simple equation if you ask me. Unfortunately its the wrong decision as Barrie is far superior to all of the above mentioned dmen. And those blaming Sacco need to direct their attention to management for signing all of these bozo pylon dmen "ahead of" Barrie on the charts. With 7 NHL dmen contracts its impossible for a AHL young gun rookie to make the team, no matter how good the player has been.

chet1926 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 11:24 AM
  #68
The Kingslayer
Registered User
 
The Kingslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Yuck horse piss!
Country: Cambodia
Posts: 23,372
vCash: 966
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
Welcome to the world of politics in professional sports.

Barrie on two way contract, making 900K, since he is not waiver eligible can easily be moved to the minors without fear of losing the player.

On the other hand Hunwick, O'Bryne, Zanon, and O'Brien are all on one way contracts all making at least 1M, are waiver eligible and management doesn't want a player making 2M playing in Lake Erie.

Its a pretty simple equation if you ask me. Unfortunately its the wrong decision as Barrie is far superior to all of the above mentioned dmen. And those blaming Sacco need to direct their attention to management for signing all of these bozo pylon dmen "ahead of" Barrie on the charts. With 7 NHL dmen contracts its impossible for a AHL young gun rookie to make the team, no matter how good the player has been.
Still dont make it right imo. If you suck you should sit if your playing well you should play. Inexcusable how guys like ROB, Hunwick and to a lesser extent Zanon( been bench last few games) are allowed to make mistakes time and again and cost us games and no accountability is put on them. in Sacco's first yr he talked about holding players accountable yadda yadd yadda remember him benching Chris Stewart and stew playing a game in LE that season? Accountability is not something i hear from stupid Joe anymore.

The Kingslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 11:38 AM
  #69
Freudian
Deja vu again?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 31,359
vCash: 0
Tippett:

"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."


I stubbornly claim that puck retrieval is a more valuable defenseman skill than hitting is.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:05 PM
  #70
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 12,061
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I stubbornly claim that puck retrieval is a more valuable defenseman skill than hitting is.
Bold statement to make, because you said puck retrieval instead of zone breakout which is what Tippet was alluding to.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:09 PM
  #71
chet1926
Registered User
 
chet1926's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Country: United States
Posts: 4,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kingslayer View Post
Still dont make it right imo. If you suck you should sit if your playing well you should play. Inexcusable how guys like ROB, Hunwick and to a lesser extent Zanon( been bench last few games) are allowed to make mistakes time and again and cost us games and no accountability is put on them. in Sacco's first yr he talked about holding players accountable yadda yadd yadda remember him benching Chris Stewart and stew playing a game in LE that season? Accountability is not something i hear from stupid Joe anymore.
Its not Joe's fault that management dicked him on this one.

Management went out and signed 7 defensemen to NHL contracts leaving no room for a player like Barrie or Elliott to make the team barring lots of injuries. Chalk this up to either not thinking Barrie or Elliott would be good enough for full time duty this year or just plain losing track of how many players at a certain postion were signed...whatever the reason it doesn't matter, because its done and over with, they signed 7 defensemen to NHL contracts.

Compare this to what Boston did, they knew that they were going to give Hamilton every opportunity to play with them this year so they signed 5 players to NHL contracts, brought in Hamilton and then a player at minium NHL contract. Hamilton played well so they had a sopt for him as the 6th dman, and they can let the guy on minimum wage ride the pine. Had Hamilton sucked they probably send him to the AHL and then go find a unsigned vet to be their 6th guy and still let minimum wage guy ride the pine.

Surprisingly we are not only team with this predicament, Toronto has done the same thing with Gardiner and he is a better player than Barrie is at this point. The NHL is a numbers game, I don't agree with it and fully agree with you that if you suck you should ride the pine but unfortunately the NHL is a business and they make business decisions that are often times the wrong decision.

chet1926 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:10 PM
  #72
Freudian
Deja vu again?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 31,359
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Bold statement to make, because you said puck retrieval instead of zone breakout which is what Tippet was alluding to.
Puck retrieval and first pass/skating the puck out are closely related.

O'Byrne is much worse at puck retrieval than passing, but because he is so terrible at puck retrieval he's almost always under pressure when trying to pass so he struggles in that area too.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:15 PM
  #73
detrude
(╯į□į)╯ ︵ ┻━┻
 
detrude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Djibouti
Posts: 3,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Tippett:

"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."


I stubbornly claim that puck retrieval is a more valuable defenseman skill than hitting is.
This is an awesome article. I've never really liked using advanced stats to measure players, but it's hard to argue against Tippett's results.

detrude is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:21 PM
  #74
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 12,061
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Puck retrieval and first pass/skating the puck out are closely related.

O'Byrne is much worse at puck retrieval than passing, but because he is so terrible at puck retrieval he's almost always under pressure when trying to pass so he struggles in that area too.
Disagree very much on that first statement. Just because one can get to the puck first and/or win the battle along the boards does not get them out of the zone. Sticking with your O'Byrne reference...

The number of times last night I saw O'Byrne win the battle (puck retrieval) but proceed to fail to skate it out or pass it out (pretty sure he had like 3 attempts blocked in a row, winning the battle, passing, failing, winning battle, rinse wash repeat) were beyond mind blowing.

One can be very good at the first pass/skating aspect (Liles) or very good at the puck retrieval, which is mostly boards play in my opinion (O'Byrne) and still be mediocre in their own zone.

It's the defenders that can do both that are good defensive players (Hejda) or the players which can use their partner effectively to exit the zone (Hannan) which earn the title of being a top defensive defender (aside from other attributes of course).

So O'Byrne's ability to hit and win battles along the boards might be solid mostly due to his size and his play in the crease is good when he's not sharing the bottle with Jones, but his overall ability to exit the zone is non-existent because he can't even use his partner effectively.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-13-2013, 12:31 PM
  #75
Freudian
Deja vu again?
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 31,359
vCash: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Disagree very much on that first statement. Just because one can get to the puck first and/or win the battle along the boards does not get them out of the zone. Sticking with your O'Byrne reference...

The number of times last night I saw O'Byrne win the battle (puck retrieval) but proceed to fail to skate it out or pass it out (pretty sure he had like 3 attempts blocked in a row, winning the battle, passing, failing, winning battle, rinse wash repeat) were beyond mind blowing.

One can be very good at the first pass/skating aspect (Liles) or very good at the puck retrieval, which is mostly boards play in my opinion (O'Byrne) and still be mediocre in their own zone.

It's the defenders that can do both that are good defensive players (Hejda) or the players which can use their partner effectively to exit the zone (Hannan) which earn the title of being a top defensive defender (aside from other attributes of course).

So O'Byrne's ability to hit and win battles along the boards might be solid mostly due to his size and his play in the crease is good when he's not sharing the bottle with Jones, but his overall ability to exit the zone is non-existent because he can't even use his partner effectively.
O'Byrne is terrible at puck retrieval. By far the worst on the team. He is slow and struggles to settle the puck down. Forecheckers put him under pressure all the time.

I think you and me don't have the same definition of what puck retrieval is. To me it's just getting to pucks quickly and getting ready to move it or beating opponents to 50/50 pucks. Not wrestling the puck from an opponent.

Freudian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:31 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.