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** Official 2013 Fire Sacco Thread: Part 1 **

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:34 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by 18007 View Post
They must think he is good for the "kids".
Yeah, because nothing can bring up confidence in young players like losing.

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03-13-2013, 03:56 PM
  #602
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Yeah, because nothing can bring up confidence in young players like losing.
Amen , I'm with you on that one.

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03-14-2013, 09:55 PM
  #603
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Avs look absolutely amazing against Chicago and SJ. Then look like utter crap getting shutout by Edmonton, and playing an incredibly sloppy game against Minnesota.

Edmonton breaks record for shots taken in a game with 56 against the Avs. More than they ever had with Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, etc.

Minnesota tonight scores 5 goals for the first time all season after getting 40 shots.

Can we not return with the same coach that can't get this team in the 4th year of a rebuild to play three solid games in a row?

A year ago today was the last time this team has won three games in a row on March 14th 2012, against the Eastern Conference Sabres and it took a 5-4 SO to do it.

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:52 PM
  #604
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WHY SHERMAN SHOULD NOT FIRE SACCO UNTIL THIS SEASON ENDS

Unless Sakic is willing to coach on an interim basis (which I doubt: could he sit Hejduk if needed?) Sacco has to stay.
1) Who will coach the rest of the year? If its Quinn or Army, and the Avs go on a run or at least show improvement, it opens the door for that coach to stay on for next year.
2) Better to see who all the available options are this summer. This team needs a coach with some experience in the NHL. I know many want Roy, but he'll want too much player control, and I'm not a fan of one person being the Coach and GM of a team in any sport.
3) Very unlikely that the Avs make the playoffs even if they go on a run, so no point in the upheaval, when worst case scenario is the team tanks for another month and a half.

JMO, but I think Sacco stays til after the last game, but I bet he's gone before the ice melts.

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03-14-2013, 10:56 PM
  #605
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Sacco would be a great assistant coach, but lacks some serious experience, which is showing with such inconsistent play on a week-by-week, game-by-game, and period-by-period basis these past 4 years.

He seems like a really good guy, so I hope we keep him in the organization like Toronto did with Burke (give him a totally unrelated to hockey job), but he definitely has to GTFO of the coaching department.

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03-14-2013, 11:04 PM
  #606
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WHY SHERMAN SHOULD NOT FIRE SACCO UNTIL THIS SEASON ENDS

Unless Sakic is willing to coach on an interim basis (which I doubt: could he sit Hejduk if needed?) Sacco has to stay.
1) Who will coach the rest of the year? If its Quinn or Army, and the Avs go on a run or at least show improvement, it opens the door for that coach to stay on for next year.
2) Better to see who all the available options are this summer. This team needs a coach with some experience in the NHL. I know many want Roy, but he'll want too much player control, and I'm not a fan of one person being the Coach and GM of a team in any sport.
3) Very unlikely that the Avs make the playoffs even if they go on a run, so no point in the upheaval, when worst case scenario is the team tanks for another month and a half.

JMO, but I think Sacco stays til after the last game, but I bet he's gone before the ice melts.
And what is so bad about that? Patrick Roy is a smart person, he's no slouch and he's shown that in Quebec. If he's both GM and Head Coach, he KNOWS exactly who he wants and if they don't perform, he knows he has the ability to ship em out whenever he pleases, he isn't held back by anyone. I've always been of the opposite opinion, that if a person with knowledge came in and was hired as GM and Coach, I'd welcome it

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03-14-2013, 11:07 PM
  #607
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29-47-6 vs the division and counting

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03-14-2013, 11:18 PM
  #608
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29-47-6 vs the division and counting
82 game season we finish with 64 points if every game is vs the NW division lol. Thank god we are in a different division next season, although Minny is still with us

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03-14-2013, 11:19 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
And what is so bad about that? Patrick Roy is a smart person, he's no slouch and he's shown that in Quebec. If he's both GM and Head Coach, he KNOWS exactly who he wants and if they don't perform, he knows he has the ability to ship em out whenever he pleases, he isn't held back by anyone. I've always been of the opposite opinion, that if a person with knowledge came in and was hired as GM and Coach, I'd welcome it
It can work, and I don't doubt Roy has the knowledge to give it a shot, but from watching situations similar primarily in the NFL and NBA, it rarely works.
Perhaps the analogy I'd use is:
In a small restaurant, one person can take the order, cook the food and serve it to the customers and provide a great product. A great product leads to more patrons and more business success, but as the restaurant grows, there needs to be a division of labor for it to still provide a quality product efficiently.

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03-14-2013, 11:23 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by AslanRH View Post
It can work, and I don't doubt Roy has the knowledge to give it a shot, but from watching situations similar primarily in the NFL and NBA, it rarely works.
Perhaps the analogy I'd use is:
In a small restaurant, one person can take the order, cook the food and serve it to the customers and provide a great product. A great product leads to more patrons and more business success, but as the restaurant grows, there needs to be a division of labor for it to still provide a quality product efficiently.
That example is true, but I don't think it relates to the GM and Coach positions. A GM's job is to assemble the best roster possible and the Coach's job is to motivate his players and find ways for his team to have success on a nightly basis, things I have no worries about Roy achieving were he to be hired. There's assistant positions that can help him out but having him as the primary source would be nice

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03-14-2013, 11:24 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
And what is so bad about that? Patrick Roy is a smart person, he's no slouch and he's shown that in Quebec. If he's both GM and Head Coach, he KNOWS exactly who he wants and if they don't perform, he knows he has the ability to ship em out whenever he pleases, he isn't held back by anyone. I've always been of the opposite opinion, that if a person with knowledge came in and was hired as GM and Coach, I'd welcome it
If you ignore that his name is Patrick Roy a minute. Would you want a coach coming straight from QMJHL getting the role as both GM and coach in the NHL? He is too inexpirenced for that IMO.

And I don't like the idea of having the same person do both jobs. It's two diffrent roles that demands diffrent qualities. Just cause you are a good coach and can talk tactics, motivate and handle players in the locker room it doesn't mean you can spot a gem who has potential, or be a good negotiater, or make good trades. I'm sure there are a few out there who could handle both roles. But that must be very rare.

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03-14-2013, 11:24 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
And what is so bad about that? Patrick Roy is a smart person, he's no slouch and he's shown that in Quebec. If he's both GM and Head Coach, he KNOWS exactly who he wants and if they don't perform, he knows he has the ability to ship em out whenever he pleases, he isn't held back by anyone. I've always been of the opposite opinion, that if a person with knowledge came in and was hired as GM and Coach, I'd welcome it
When was the last time a coach/GM was really successful in the NHL? Quinn was a great coach, terrible GM--he just managed to get more out of the bad pieces he acquired than anyone else would have. Same with Darryl Sutter.

No. I think the game is too complicated now, too many pieces to manage for a coach to wear both hats with little more than a capologist/bean counter doing the dirty work.

Besides, giving Roy the coach/GM position would invariably allow Lacroix back in the room, and I want him gone entirely.

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03-14-2013, 11:26 PM
  #613
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The only reason you guys want Roy is because of his passion and fire, but I label him in the inexperience category. I know he won a Memorial Cup, but Ruff brings that fire & passion with tactical knowledge and experience to keep leads and win games.

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03-14-2013, 11:31 PM
  #614
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The only reason you guys want Roy is because of his passion and fire, but I label him in the inexperience category. I know he won a Memorial Cup, but Ruff brings that fire & passion with tactical knowledge and experience to keep leads and win games.
Did you watch the end of Ruff's tenure in Buffalo S E P H? His coaching was bad beyond belief, sure you could say he stayed there a bit too long and that the players were tuning him out, but I was never a fan of his. He had some amazing teams under his control and he didn't win a thing.

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03-14-2013, 11:34 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
The only reason you guys want Roy is because of his passion and fire, but I label him in the inexperience category. I know he won a Memorial Cup, but Ruff brings that fire & passion with tactical knowledge and experience to keep leads and win games.
That is one reason, another is that he is a proven winner on the ice and on the bench with Quebec. Sure, it was in junior but a Head Coach is a Head Coach, all coaches have to get their start somewhere. He has shown how effective of a coach he can be in Quebec. I personally label Joe Sacco in the inexperience category lol.

Also, I don't think Lindy Ruff is the right guy for this team. He had 1 Stanley Cup Finals appearance and I think 2 other Conference Finals appearances in his what, 17 or 18 years there as a coach?

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03-14-2013, 11:59 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by AslanRH View Post
WHY SHERMAN SHOULD NOT FIRE SACCO UNTIL THIS SEASON ENDS

Unless Sakic is willing to coach on an interim basis (which I doubt: could he sit Hejduk if needed?) Sacco has to stay.
1) Who will coach the rest of the year? If its Quinn or Army, and the Avs go on a run or at least show improvement, it opens the door for that coach to stay on for next year.
2) Better to see who all the available options are this summer. This team needs a coach with some experience in the NHL. I know many want Roy, but he'll want too much player control, and I'm not a fan of one person being the Coach and GM of a team in any sport.
3) Very unlikely that the Avs make the playoffs even if they go on a run, so no point in the upheaval, when worst case scenario is the team tanks for another month and a half.

JMO, but I think Sacco stays til after the last game, but I bet he's gone before the ice melts.
They already moved the guy they've been grooming as a possible replacement in as assistant last season. No reason they can't pull the damned trigger now and put an interim tag on Quinn. If he finishes strong, great...take the tag off. If he doesn't, then do a real godforsaken coaching search. There's no reason they can't try and save what's left of the season and see what they have in some of these young players under a different coach AND weigh their options at season's end.

But of course, actually doing to work to look for coaching candidates outside the organization and using interim coaches is just not the Lacroix Way. And that's the problem.

Again, I think management has been indecisive since the lockout ended. It's what led to the O'Reilly disaster, and it's what's leading to this current debacle. They need to decide if Sacco's the guy going forward. He's not, so why in hell are they wasting everyone's time!?

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03-15-2013, 12:01 AM
  #617
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I really wish Sacco would let EJ man the 1st power play unit. Has he really given up on his offense that quickly. EJ looked good when he first got here. Just let the man play and build confidence.

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03-15-2013, 12:17 AM
  #618
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Disclaimer: I have no idea how good a coach Quinn is. He might be a superb coach.

With that out of the way, I'm not sure firing Sacco and naming Quinn interim coach is a good idea. It tends to lock the organization into that coach if he only does ok rest of the way (Richards, Capuano etc) and you don't explore other options going forward but make the interim coach the head coach next season.

There are a lot of AHL coaches that seem to combine the best of modern and traditional coaching. Demanding but without a lot of the mind games old school coaches love. Dallas Eakins and Jon Cooper are two examples of coaches like that. If we're going to get a new coach (which seems all but inevitable at this stage) I'd like Avs to explore all options and not just the lowest hanging fruit.

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03-15-2013, 12:29 AM
  #619
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Disclaimer: I have no idea how good a coach Quinn is. He might be a superb coach.

With that out of the way, I'm not sure firing Sacco and naming Quinn interim coach is a good idea. It tends to lock the organization into that coach if he only does ok rest of the way (Richards, Capuano etc) and you don't explore other options going forward but make the interim coach the head coach next season.

There are a lot of AHL coaches that seem to combine the best of modern and traditional coaching. Demanding but without a lot of the mind games old school coaches love. Dallas Eakins and Jon Cooper are two examples of coaches like that. If we're going to get a new coach (which seems all but inevitable at this stage) I'd like Avs to explore all options and not just the lowest hanging fruit.
Agreed on all accounts.

I never liked the interim approach. It just shows you're indecisive and don't really know what to do. It's also too easy for that coach and team to get a short term boost from the change, and you're basing that performance on whether to hire them full time.

I much prefer making the change in the offseason unless you're a Cup contender, and it's apparent the current guy isn't working.

Either way, the guy you replace the last guy with, should be the guy you studied, and had many discussions over, and decided should be the next coach. It sends the message that he's the guy, and if you do it in the offseason, it makes for a clean slate on the new season, and a full training camp to get to know the players, and them you.

As much as I complain about Sacco, and want him gone, I'd rather it be in the offseason. Both for the reasons I mentioned, and to keep a short term boost in the standings on a losing season from getting the Avs a worse draft pick.

This team needs another highly talented impact player, and the higher the pick, and the better the odds are of winning the lottery, the more likely they can get that.

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03-15-2013, 12:38 AM
  #620
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Trying to implement a new system at this point would basically mean seasons done. I mean it probably does with Sacco anyways, but i'd rather finish the season with Sacco and have a higher chance of getting an actual coach, rather than let Quinn get interim coach and then probably have him for the next few years.

Quinn isn't the answer to our long term problems, so if he does well short term it's just going to be Sacco 2.0.

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03-15-2013, 12:50 AM
  #621
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I really wish Sacco would let EJ man the 1st power play unit. Has he really given up on his offense that quickly. EJ looked good when he first got here. Just let the man play and build confidence.
I really wish Sacco would make a sensible coaching decision of ANY kind. He hasn't done so in quite a while now.

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03-15-2013, 12:58 AM
  #622
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Disclaimer: I have no idea how good a coach Quinn is. He might be a superb coach.

With that out of the way, I'm not sure firing Sacco and naming Quinn interim coach is a good idea. It tends to lock the organization into that coach if he only does ok rest of the way (Richards, Capuano etc) and you don't explore other options going forward but make the interim coach the head coach next season.

There are a lot of AHL coaches that seem to combine the best of modern and traditional coaching. Demanding but without a lot of the mind games old school coaches love. Dallas Eakins and Jon Cooper are two examples of coaches like that. If we're going to get a new coach (which seems all but inevitable at this stage) I'd like Avs to explore all options and not just the lowest hanging fruit.
But we know the team's not going to actually explore new options, so why bother with this charade? Make Quinn the head coach now and let's see what we've got. Basically it's the same situation as we have with Barrie. We have a crap placeholder defenseman currently making a fool of himself on the ice instead of a guy who clearly has more talent, if not more experience. So why are we waiting for the team to REALLY hit the skids before sending Sacco on his merry way? Just do it now and at the very least see what this team can do under David Quinn.

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03-15-2013, 01:12 AM
  #623
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Why was everyone here so keen on Quenneville getting fired?

131-92-23 record is kinda good. Especially if you consider this was after the Forsberg and Roy era. And we didn't really have a good goalie at all.

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03-15-2013, 01:16 AM
  #624
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Why was everyone here so keen on Quenneville getting fired?

131-92-23 record is kinda good. Especially if you consider this was after the Forsberg and Roy era. And we didn't really have a goalie at all.
I think it was probably because the expectations were still high back then, and we didn't really want to admit they needed to do a full rebuild.

Plus the aging slow players they had, and the fairly one dimensional style of basically setting everything up behind the net became very easy for oppositions to figure out, and Cloutier's D system was just soft as hell.

With a different group, and maybe Q more willing to go with younger guys in a rebuild rather than sticking with vets that weren't working, it would have been good to keep him, but it just didn't work out.

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03-15-2013, 01:19 AM
  #625
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Why was everyone here so keen on Quenneville getting fired?

131-92-23 record is kinda good. Especially if you consider this was after the Forsberg and Roy era. And we didn't really have a good goalie at all.
Every Coach has his own nuances that drive people crazy. Detroit fans complain about Cleary and Abdelkater's ice time, San Jose fans have wanted McLellan fired for 2 weeks now (SJ has looked awful).

In saying that every Coach has a shelf life. Q spent his in Colorado. The teams make up was falling apart at the time anyways. It was better for both parties.

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