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Old
03-10-2013, 12:29 PM
  #26
Ziggyjoe21
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Staal has nothing to do with it. The year when Staal missed 41 games the PK was 3rd in NHL without him.

I guess teams are exploiting it after the Flyers "figured it out".

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03-10-2013, 12:58 PM
  #27
wgknestrick
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Comparing GAA/60min numbers, it lies all on Cooke and Sutter with the other defensive "holes" falling onto Letang and Engelland. These are the 4 players who allow the highest rates of 4v5 goals against per min.

The rest of the PK squad has GAA/60 rates that are on par with our past years of PK excellence (though still higher than). Cooke has to be removed immediately IMO. His GAA/60 is about 2x as high as he has been logging. I would just get him off the PK squad then try to figure out exactly what has changed with him. He should be better than what he has been this year. He could also just be "unlucky" (see below).

Final item (and probably most important) is goaltending. While Cooke is on the ice 4v5, he is only getting .774 SV% from Penguins goaltending. That is awful.

While Sutter is on the ice, .789 SV% isn't much better. Goaltending should be around .850% at the minimum during a PK. That is pretty cruddy goaltending while our "best" 2 forwards are out on the PK. Sutter has an excellent 4v5 corsi so I don't think it is all on him.

Letang should never touch the ice during a PK too IMO. His 4v5 corsi is worst among all defenders and so is his on ice SV%. That is a pretty bad combination. He allows the most shots and also probably allows the highest quality of shots.

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Old
03-10-2013, 01:11 PM
  #28
eXile59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyjoe21 View Post
Staal has nothing to do with it. The year when Staal missed 41 games the PK was 3rd in NHL without him.

I guess teams are exploiting it after the Flyers "figured it out".
No one figured out anything. I hate that saying. Like some teams just sat around said "Oh yeah we can just pass it through the middle of the ice!! How did we not see that before."

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Comparing GAA/60min numbers, it lies all on Cooke and Sutter with the other defensive "holes" falling onto Letang and Engelland. These are the 4 players who allow the highest rates of 4v5 goals against per min.

The rest of the PK squad has GAA/60 rates that are on par with our past years of PK excellence (though still higher than). Cooke has to be removed immediately IMO. His GAA/60 is about 2x as high as he has been logging. I would just get him off the PK squad then try to figure out exactly what has changed with him. He should be better than what he has been this year. He could also just be "unlucky" (see below).

Final item (and probably most important) is goaltending. While Cooke is on the ice 4v5, he is only getting .774 SV% from Penguins goaltending. That is awful.

While Sutter is on the ice, .789 SV% isn't much better. Goaltending should be around .850% at the minimum during a PK. That is pretty cruddy goaltending while our "best" 2 forwards are out on the PK. Sutter has an excellent 4v5 corsi so I don't think it is all on him.

Letang should never touch the ice during a PK too IMO. His 4v5 corsi is worst among all defenders and so is his on ice SV%. That is a pretty bad combination. He allows the most shots and also probably allows the highest quality of shots.
I wipe my crack with corsi. It's a useless stat. This isn't baseball.

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Old
03-10-2013, 06:02 PM
  #29
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Orpik needs coached to do the things that come naturally to him. Not to completely ignore the man standing his ass directly in front of our goalie, which is what he's currently being coached to do.
Orpik can't be in two places at once. He also can't let guys work around in total freedom on his side of the ice. I've also noticed a lot of missed obligations from his partner Engelland.

Regardless, Orpik takes the brunt of the load, and if you break it down over the course of the season with him leading the league in PK TOI that he's really not doing all that bad. Especially since he was never the main cog behind the PK before. This may be his new role with the team for the rest of his tenure. Get someone else who's big and can relieve him or pair up with him. Shot blocking isn't there this year.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:31 PM
  #30
Jax1166
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Why is the Penguins PK So Bad?

The past few seasons, during the regular season, the Penguins have had one of the best PK units. In the playoffs, they got smoked.

This season the PK has been awful all season long. Why?
My guesses:

1) Losing Jordan Staal. Sutter may be a very good PK but was Staal just that great?
2) Stalwarts not being as effective (Cooke, Adams, Dupuis, Kunitz).
3) The rest of the NHL has watched tape of the playoffs and figured it out?
4) Poor focus?

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:33 PM
  #31
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Way to passive and the diamond formation is for fools.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:47 PM
  #32
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They're doing a lot of the same stuff with most of the same personnel that worked quite well the previous few seasons.

Since it's unlikely any change is going to made to it systemically, the best hope is that the team is just going through an extended poor spell. The goalies also need to be better as they haven't play very well so far this season either.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #33
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Absolutely the system is what sucks, not necesarilly the players.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:53 PM
  #34
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Old
03-13-2013, 02:54 PM
  #35
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They've been trotting Sid out there for some faceoffs, but their main PK'ing forwards are Cooke, Dupuis, Sutter, Adams and Glass. Sutter's a decent (but hardly dominant) faceoff guy, the rest are dreadful at faceoffs.

Hard to clear the puck when the other team starts out with it. Instant setup to the PP which allows for more zone time, and more opportunities to get shots/chances and ultimately, goals.

Kind of disappointing that they haven't given Vitale at least a cameo as PK guy to see what he can do. How hard can it be to teach and keep coaching him on positioning and keeping a stick in the lane? And given how poor the other forwards have largely been, what's the loss?


Last edited by Skk82: 03-13-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #36
Ogelthorpe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axman View Post
Absolutely the system is what sucks, not necesarilly the players.
Disagree. Same system as a few years ago. Adams is older and slower, Glass gets on the ice (ugg), and we don't have a Scuderi or Gill type Dman to anchor the PK.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #37
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Lack of pressure. Using some ... not so fleet of foot personnel.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:58 PM
  #38
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Think it's mostly just Staal. Sutter's a fine player, but Staal was so big and had such amazing reach that it seemed like he was in every passing lane simultaneously.

It also doesn't help that Talbot never really got backfilled. About all he does on Philadelphia these days is kill penalties well, but he does at least do that (of guys who kill penalties on that team, he's clearly the creme of the crop http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#).

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:00 PM
  #39
Skk82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Disagree. Same system as a few years ago. Adams is older and slower, Glass gets on the ice (ugg), and we don't have a Scuderi or Gill type Dman to anchor the PK.
Right. It's the same system that was a top ranking unit in the league the past couple years.

The personnel this year is a lot worse than it was 1, 2 or 3 years ago. That's the problem.

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03-13-2013, 03:02 PM
  #40
cashisking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Think it's mostly just Staal. Sutter's a fine player, but Staal was so big and had such amazing reach that it seemed like he was in every passing lane simultaneously.

It also doesn't help that Talbot never really got backfilled. About all he does on Philadelphia these days is kill penalties well, but he does at least do that (of guys who kill penalties on that team, he's clearly the creme of the crop http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#).
Exactly this. Staals stick was like 6 feet long and he had the reach to get into the passing lanes. If I had a dollar for everytime he got a stick on a puck and then chipped it out I wouldn't have to work today this week

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:06 PM
  #41
alcanalz
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How is the personnel a lot worse when it's basically just Staal for Sutter? That's not a big downgrade at all defensively, and if one player was so unbelievably important to our PK then we have our own problems. Carolina's PK isn't all of a sudden amazing now (it's bottom third of the league, the same it's been for the past few years).

I'm not sure what's wrong with it. It seems like we're being less aggressive than we used to be. I think we'll get it turned around in time for the playoffs.

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03-13-2013, 03:25 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
How is the personnel a lot worse when it's basically just Staal for Sutter? That's not a big downgrade at all defensively, and if one player was so unbelievably important to our PK then we have our own problems.
By TOI/game:

2012-13 top PK players
D: Orpik, Martin, Letang, Eaton
F: Adams, Cooke, Dupuis, Sutter, Glass

2011-12 top PK players:
D: Michalek, Orpik, Martin, Letang
F: Adams, Staal, Cooke, Dupuis

2010-11 top PK players:
D: Michalek, Orpik, Martin, Letang
F: Adams, Talbot, Cooke, Staal, Dupuis


--Adams has gotten older each year, remains the top PK guy
--Orpik's having a bad year on the PK this season
--Loss of Michalek and Staal, being replaced by just leaning on the regular PK guys more than trying younger, different options.

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03-13-2013, 03:25 PM
  #43
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Look at the alot of the goals that have been scored.

Screens, deflections, tips, etc. It's not like they are crapped on with tricky puck movement and cross ice passes. It's a product of shots getting through and them causing havoc.

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03-13-2013, 03:29 PM
  #44
alcanalz
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Michalek was a great PKer, I kind of forgot about him. Not enough to justify our PK this year but losing him sure hurts.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:32 PM
  #45
Skk82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Michalek was a great PKer, I kind of forgot about him. Not enough to justify our PK this year but losing him sure hurts.
It's been a quick season. If Orpik can't replace Michalek's minutes and help keep the front of the net area clean, than it does justify a big portion of why things are going wrong.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:32 PM
  #46
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I don't typically care for personnel issues, but I do think Glass, Adams, and Cooke have all gotten a bit worse. Guys like Orpik are having trouble clearing the zone. The players are a bit of a worry.

It's also a joke to get into our zone. We used to be very tough and turned teams right back into their own end. Now you can gain our zone by simply skating straight ahead. That's all.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #47
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It would help if they actually cared about moving the guy screening Fleury but, alas, they dont.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:36 PM
  #48
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It's too easy to pass through the box on us, and we're not nearly aggressive enough at the points. When we are aggressive, we do it at the wrong time and teams pass around us. Our goaltending has been suspect as well.

It's just a mess.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #49
eXile59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Disagree. Same system as a few years ago. Adams is older and slower, Glass gets on the ice (ugg), and we don't have a Scuderi or Gill type Dman to anchor the PK.
To be fair you always defend Bylsma. I have noticed the switch at the points is being done a lot more. One guy get's a subtle pick so he just follows that guy & another takes after the shooter. I don't remember us doing that so much in the past. It's really ineffective.

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:20 PM
  #50
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I have no idea why Byslma refuses to use Vitale on the PK, if one of Vitale, Sutter or Crosby is taken the FO we have a much better chance of winning it than if Adams or Glass are taking it.

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