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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:48 PM
  #1001
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Originally Posted by bradrich99 View Post
I think it is telling that on the STL boards there is absolutely zero chatter from fans thinking the Blues got the short end of the deal or even missing EJ. It seems that they clearly were ready to move on from him. Why is that?
Because Petro's already a great player? If Elliott and Barrie where already established in the NHL, do you really think there would be nearly as much lamenting about Cap'n Kirk?

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03-13-2013, 01:52 PM
  #1002
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
No it's not out of line to point out EJ shortcomings, but at the same times it's not fair to completely ignore other players/draft picks (Siemens, Rattie, McClement) that were involved in that trade and to ignore the shortcomings of Stewart and Shattenkirk.
By the same token it's not fair to exaggerate those shortcomings (Stewart's a lazy good-for-nothin') either.

Here's the thing--Stewart and Shattenkirk were projected all along to be high octane offensive guys who had flaws in their respective defensive games. Johnson on the other hand was projected to be a #1 defenseman who could get it done at both ends of the ice. Two players met their expectations, one as of yet has not. The only thing helping EJ right now is the fact that defenders like that take longer to develop.

We will see about Siemens. I'm fairly confident he'll be solid, if not a star defender. I still think a lot hinges on EJ's success though.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #1003
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
It's not out of line to point at EJ's lack of production. We want him to be that guy who can play in all situations. While it's great he's played solid defense, we need more from him than that.

He's clearly been indecisive with the puck, which could be attributed to trying to get his game back post-concussion, I don't know. But bottom line, he needs to be force at both ends of the ice to justify this trade. There are a lot of factors that can affect his production of course, but he needs to be an offensive catalyst more than ever since Sacco appears to think we can get by just fine without Tyson Barrie. That leaves EJ, SOB, and Wilson as the only guys on the blueline with any discernible puck skill whatsoever.
Has he even been used on the point on the first PP unit to start the season? I know our PP is piss-poor regardless of what we do but are we putting our confidence in him to at least PLAY on that first unit? No we're not. So we expect him to put up points but don't give him the best chance to do it? We put him out there on the 'BLACK HOLE PP' with Jones, Mitchell and Palushaj?

I guarantee that if a new coach (that knew what he was doing) was hired TODAY, he'd put EJ on the point on the 1st PP unit.

EJ can't get shots through??

I think it has a lot to do with who is setting him up as well. A lot of times, it's a desperate forward trying to get away from the forechecker with a weak pass to the point, leaving the pointman a split second to get the shot off, or try to do something else.

Ryan O'Reilly would be a good pairing for EJ on the PP, I really think they'd be able to set each other up nicely. Big SHOCKER, it's never even been tried.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #1004
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Has he even been used on the point on the first PP unit to start the season? I know our PP is piss-poor regardless of what we do but are we putting our confidence in him to at least PLAY on that first unit? No we're not. So we expect him to put up points but don't give him the best chance to do it? We put him out there on the 'BLACK HOLE PP' with Jones, Mitchell and Palushaj?

I guarantee that if a new coach (that knew what he was doing) was hired TODAY, he'd put EJ on the point on the 1st PP unit.

EJ can't get shots through??

I think it has a lot to do with who is setting him up as well. A lot of times, it's a desperate forward trying to get away from the forechecker with a weak pass to the point, leaving the pointman a split second to get the shot off, or try to do something else.

Ryan O'Reilly would be a good pairing for EJ on the PP, I really think they'd be able to set each other up nicely. Big SHOCKER, it's never even been tried.
Other posters on here have pointed out before that EJ is absolutely terrible at getting his shot off quickly. I agree that EJ can't really produce power play points the way Sacco has his PP units idiotically set up, but part of the reason EJ hasn't been used on the PP's 1st unit is because he just hasn't been that good on it. Again, he's been hesitant and indecisive with the puck. I don't think it's just a matter of setup passes--EJ right now isn't very good at settling the puck down and getting a shot off quickly, or at the very least, walking the line and then shooting when he finds an opening.

I don't think EJ's shaky play on the PP is justification to continue this stupid 5-forward PP, but there's at least some method to Sacco's madness.

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Old
03-13-2013, 02:53 PM
  #1005
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O'Reilly seems to be the only one that has a sweet one-timer.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:22 PM
  #1006
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Dammit why are you still arguing the EJ trade, that was 2 years ago.

What has Sherman done lately in the past few months? Literally nothing outside of claiming Pulushaj and signing O'Reilly (which was done by another GM tbh). He's sat idly without improving the defence at all or trying to fix special teams. We've been misled, this guy has no plan. Our hopes rely on the scouting department now and the next coach being good.

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Old
03-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #1007
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*Sigh*

EJ's my favourite player by far in the NHL, but sadly I am moving into "the Blue's won this trade" group.

This doesn't mean that I regret the Avs trading Shattenkirk and Stewart, as I wouldn't mind trading them again, but the value right now is swinging heavily in St. Louis' favour. If Sherman could have waited a year, I'm sure it could have been Stewart+Elliott for Johnson+. Or he could have sold high on Shattenkirk instead of him being a prospect.

With that said, I do think there are some things to point out here.

There are issues with Colorado that are exacerbating the trade:
-Not being able to re-sign Jay Mac. He wouldn't swing the trade to the Avs favour anymore, especially since he is a defensive guy, but he would have helped win games and people wouldn't be so frustrated.

-Sacco. If someone can provide me with a reasonable argument as to why EJ should play less than O'Brien, O'Byrne, Hunwick, and Wilson then maybe I can be enlightened. Its been stated a million times that EJ should be getting 23+ minutes a night. Unfortunately Sacco prefers to split time. I also don't think it can be stressed enough how when Johnson first got here, he was looking like a 40 point defenceman, who played 25+ minutes a night, as a guy who was told to ignore Sacco's "system" and just play. Now he plays Sacco's system and seems like he's content to just get out there, not get scored on, and get off. This is a major issue with him right now. He needs to get his confidence back. It looks like he is just going through the motions. I think part of this is sitting on the bench so much. If he is playing lots he isn't going to be thinking. He'll just play, and that is when he is going to look his best.

-Powerplay. EJ is definitely getting the short end of the stick here. He is put on the right side for some stupid reason which completely takes away his one timer. I don't think I've seen him shoot a one timer this season. That second unit is also a joke. Palushaj, Jones, McGinn? He is supposed to put up points with these players? It's just not going to happen.

-Partner. Wilson jumps up into the play all the time, but isn't good enough offensively to have anything show for it. Hejda-Johnson was about as useful a poopy flavoured lollypop. O'Brien thought he was Bobby Orr. Matt Hunwick...Its Hunwick. Liles should still be partnered with Johnson, and he would have a lot more points.

When Sherman figures these things out, then the trade will look a lot better. There is just no way that it won't. I really believe Sacco is by far the biggest issue here.

The Blues won the trade. It's as simple as that. They sold high on Johnson and bought fairly low on Shatty and Stewy. But it is done. Now the Avs need to go about making sure EJ is a 40 point, all situation defenceman, which he totally can be.

The other is the play of Shatty and Stewy's/ contracts.
As it stands right now, the Avs are going to face some big decisions after next season. There is a lot of young talent that is going to get paid. Due to Shattenkirk's points, he has a good reason to demand almost 5+ million. Not sure what Stewart is looking at, but he is a guy who I would be very nervous to give a long term contract to.

The Blues no doubt don't regret the trade, but that doesn't mean they don't have issues too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth JD View Post
False. Shattenkirk is a mess in his own end. He's essentially turning into Phil Housley or Steve Duchesne.

Love his offense...but if he's commanding big bucks (more than $4.5M/year), I'd be willing to shop him around the league. The kid needs to figure out how to play in his own zone.
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Originally Posted by Honeycutt View Post
I agree.
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Originally Posted by PerryTurnbullfan View Post
He definitely needs a shut down, butt covering partner. His defense isn't there with his offense that is for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Shattenkirk's "sloppy" play began when Jackman was taken away from him...
Obviously you could find plenty of quotes about EJ's shortcomings too, and the Blues overall are very happy with Shatty, but some of you act like the Avs traded away an amazing 2-way defender. They didn't. They traded away a guy who is awesome offensively, and mediocre defensively. I said it before, and I'll say it again. He is going to slow down and his numbers won't look so godly by the end of the season. It has already started happening.

As for Stewart, everyone knows he is streaky. When he is on, the fans love him. When he is not, he is very aggravating. Is his current play a hot streak, or is this the player he is always going to be now?

I've defended EJ a lot, but I do agree he needs to show more for this trade to considered worth it. However, I don't know if he ever will as long as Sacco is here.

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Old
03-13-2013, 04:21 PM
  #1008
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If we kept McClement, which was beyond our control sadly and Siemens pans out we'd have been in no worse shape than the standard "worked for both sides" party line people use.
If EJ and Siemens becomes are backbone defensively for the next decade it's hard to say that we got hosed in any way.

It looks good for the Blues now, I have to admit. But you don't get a guy like EJ if you don't give up something really good as well.

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Old
03-13-2013, 04:24 PM
  #1009
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Shatty is better than mediocre in his own zone. He was ok in his own zone with the Avs, I highly doubt he regressed since his time playing under Hitchcock.

I'm not saying he's this tremendous two-way defenseman either, but he's somewhere in the middle.

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Old
03-13-2013, 04:43 PM
  #1010
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Dammit why are you still arguing the EJ trade, that was 2 years ago.

What has Sherman done lately in the past few months? Literally nothing outside of claiming Pulushaj and signing O'Reilly (which was done by another GM tbh). He's sat idly without improving the defence at all or trying to fix special teams. We've been misled, this guy has no plan. Our hopes rely on the scouting department now and the next coach being good.
Clearly not making a trade in two months = Sherman and pretty much every other GM in the league having "no plan."

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradrich99 View Post
I think it is telling that on the STL boards there is absolutely zero chatter from fans thinking the Blues got the short end of the deal or even missing EJ. It seems that they clearly were ready to move on from him. Why is that?
Because Stewarts been playing well for two months, Shattenkirk's putting up points, and their team has the 3rd most points in the western conference, while we're battling for last in the league.


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Old
03-13-2013, 05:14 PM
  #1011
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
We got three defensive assets and Blues got three offensive assets in the trade. Only using offensive production to evaluate it seems a bit strange.
That's not at all what I did, but whatever.

Since no one else seems to be willing to address the questions, so I'll try them again, a bit differently this time:

What level of defense can one defenseman possibly play to make up for 100+ points?

What 100+ player would you trade for what really good defensive defenseman?

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:22 PM
  #1012
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Wow... People are still harping on the EJ trade. It is over! Sherman may have overpaid a bit, but what Sherman does is target the pieces needed to build a cup winner and does whatever it takes to get them. He 'overpaid' for Varly and EJ to get pieces that have potential to be cornerstone pieces for a cup run. This team with a couple prospects instead of Varly, and Shattenkirk and Stewart instead of EJ would be farther away from a cup than they are now. It really isn't hard to understand what Sherman's plan is. You may disagree with it, but the reasoning behind it is very simple. If you follow that path of reasoning you would do that trade 10 times out of 10.

Shattenkirk is not a cornerstone piece to a cup team nor does he have that potential, he is a complimentary piece. EJ isn't a cornerstone piece and may never be one, but he has that potential.

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:40 PM
  #1013
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Yes, it was a big price. But it's not like we got Alex Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen. If we had made that trade, I would have understood if some were still whining about it. Or Gardiner and Lupul for François Beauchemin.

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:47 PM
  #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
That's not at all what I did, but whatever.

Since no one else seems to be willing to address the questions, so I'll try them again, a bit differently this time:

What level of defense can one defenseman possibly play to make up for 100+ points?

What 100+ player would you trade for what really good defensive defenseman?
Who is the 100 point player you're referring to? I see two players including a forward making up your 100 point scenario, and only one so called defensive defenseman. I'm sure we can find a few players to eclipse Crosby's point totals, and it would have no relevance to whether trading them for him would be a good idea or not.

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Old
03-13-2013, 05:53 PM
  #1015
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if Shattenkirk was going to be our no.1 dman without the Johnson trade, I have no idea what to tell the rest of you Avs Fans.

Johnson has been a stud for the MAJORITY of his time here. It's not his fault he's been paired with Hunwick, Hejda, O'brien, etc.

give him 1 SOLID TOP 4 GUY and he'd be gangbusters.

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:07 PM
  #1016
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Who is the 100 point player you're referring to? I see two players including a forward making up your 100 point scenario, and only one so called defensive defenseman.
Correct. I'm trying to take EJ out of the equation, and thus the emotion out of it.

So. Would you trade 100 points of offense (one player, two players, 15 players, whatever) for one player's defensive abilities? I put in the one player option, as that's the simplest.

Which NHL 100 point player would you happily trade for which defense-only defenseman?

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:09 PM
  #1017
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
Yes, it was a big price. But it's not like we got Alex Goligoski for James Neal and Matt Niskanen. If we had made that trade, I would have understood if some were still whining about it. Or Gardiner and Lupul for François Beauchemin.

Lol Beachemin is the cornerstone of the Anaheim defense and he plays a ton of minutes. That trade was good for both teams.

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:09 PM
  #1018
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
*Sigh*

EJ's my favourite player by far in the NHL, but sadly I am moving into "the Blue's won this trade" group.
Another convert. My work has just begun!

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:11 PM
  #1019
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Lol Beachemin is the cornerstone of the Anaheim defense and he plays a ton of minutes. That trade was good for both teams.
He is doing good now. He was OK last year. Is over 30 years old and Ducks gave up Lupul and Gardiner for him...

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Old
03-13-2013, 06:24 PM
  #1020
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