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Old
03-12-2013, 12:13 AM
  #26
rumrokh
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Originally Posted by Crumblin Erb Brooks View Post
Weve been playing from behind a lot more than last season, probably has a lot to do with it. Polak barely sees the ice in the last 5 minutes if we are down.
Even though that's true, the Blues' Fenwick while the score is close is still top of the league, along with LA and Boston. That's very predictive of team quality. Every single tight-checking team other than Boston has suffered in the standings this year. Blues, LA, New Jersey, NYR, Nashville. They all have other reasons, but getting up to speed defensively has been an issue with tight-checking teams.

In the Blues' case, their puck luck and goaltending have been statistically terrible. I think if both were better, more fans forgive some of Pietro's mistakes and he piles on a few more goals and assists, too, making his risks appear better. Perron is in a similar boat: is hanging onto the puck patience or selfishness? If it works, it looks like patience, if it doesn't, he's selfish. A little luck can tip that severely one way or the other.

Alex has been better overall in the past few games and he'll continue to improve. As long as the Blues make the playoffs and he's firing on all cylinders then, that's what matters. Everyone knew to expect anomalies with the shortened season.


Last edited by rumrokh: 03-12-2013 at 12:42 AM.
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03-12-2013, 08:14 AM
  #27
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Shattenkirk easily deserves it over him this year, and Shattenkirk should only be mentioned in the top 10 or so defensemen, not Norris talk.
Plenty of defensemen have won the Norris not because they should have, but because they were supposed to. Why not add Pietro's name to that list eh?

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03-12-2013, 10:44 PM
  #28
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It seems that Pietrangelo's defensive play, along with the team's, has declined this year. Here's my question: is the team playing worse defense because Pietrangelo hasn't played as well? Or is Pietrangelo playing worse because the team defense has declined?

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03-12-2013, 10:58 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by g3ryder View Post
It seems that Pietrangelo's defensive play, along with the team's, has declined this year. Here's my question: is the team playing worse defense because Pietrangelo hasn't played as well? Or is Pietrangelo playing worse because the team defense has declined?
A bit of both. A lot of bad goaltending. Some lockout rust. He's been better defensively lately and so has the whole team. And what do you know, better goaltending, too.

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03-13-2013, 12:10 AM
  #30
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It is frustrating to watch him this season because its obvious that he has the skill and the mind to be much more effective than he currently is. He's making some ghastly reads and has been less than stellar below the goal line (where he absolutely shined last season). He seems less confident with the puck and sort of lacksadaisical with his passing out of the zone. I think its telling that he's not getting his shot through from the point as much this year.....something seems up.

And that something just seems like rust, fatigue, and a bit of complacency. He seems to be going through the motions instead of moving the puck out on defense and into high percentage areas on offense. He'll snap out of it as the season progresses.

As a sidenote, its interesting to me that the play of AP and DB has been downplayed in favor of blaming goaltending and injuries. Fatigue is an issue, injuries are certainly an issue, but no matter how deep this team is now, the tone is set in large part by these 2 players. Backes is playing with a bit more urgency in the past few games, but I'm not going to relinquish my stance that both of them weren't as intense as they could be for most of this season. Backes probably won't be our top scorer this season, but his intensity and drive sets the table for his teammates going into every game. Same goes for Pietrangelo's technical, smart play. No one was going to be able to look DB in the eye last year after giving less than maximum effort. He was THAT guy. And it was awesome.

tl;dr There are a number of factors, but AP and DB should be playing better.

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03-13-2013, 12:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Blues88 View Post
It is frustrating to watch him this season because its obvious that he has the skill and the mind to be much more effective than he currently is. He's making some ghastly reads and has been less than stellar below the goal line (where he absolutely shined last season). He seems less confident with the puck and sort of lacksadaisical with his passing out of the zone. I think its telling that he's not getting his shot through from the point as much this year.....something seems up.

And that something just seems like rust, fatigue, and a bit of complacency. He seems to be going through the motions instead of moving the puck out on defense and into high percentage areas on offense. He'll snap out of it as the season progresses.

As a sidenote, its interesting to me that the play of AP and DB has been downplayed in favor of blaming goaltending and injuries. Fatigue is an issue, injuries are certainly an issue, but no matter how deep this team is now, the tone is set in large part by these 2 players. Backes is playing with a bit more urgency in the past few games, but I'm not going to relinquish my stance that both of them weren't as intense as they could be for most of this season. Backes probably won't be our top scorer this season, but his intensity and drive sets the table for his teammates going into every game. Same goes for Pietrangelo's technical, smart play. No one was going to be able to look DB in the eye last year after giving less than maximum effort. He was THAT guy. And it was awesome.

tl;dr There are a number of factors, but AP and DB should be playing better.
I think it's even truer for Backes than for Pietro. For a few games, Backes was a wrecking crew; but for the most part, all elements of his game have been weaker. Several times this year, he has swooped past the puck in the defensive zone instead of stopping on it or at least finding a man to check. I wouldn't be wild about my captain calling guys out for the same behavior in the media if he didn't blatantly own up to it, himself.

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03-13-2013, 02:05 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
I think it's even truer for Backes than for Pietro. For a few games, Backes was a wrecking crew; but for the most part, all elements of his game have been weaker. Several times this year, he has swooped past the puck in the defensive zone instead of stopping on it or at least finding a man to check. I wouldn't be wild about my captain calling guys out for the same behavior in the media if he didn't blatantly own up to it, himself.
Perhaps the lockout is partially to blame for Backes, tough to stay in shape when you are stuck in mediation rooms during the entire lockout.

I dont get going back to Jackman-Petro either, not a good pairing ever, no matter how much we want to make it work.

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03-13-2013, 02:26 AM
  #33
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Which is ironic bcause in general Jackman is having a stellar season (had a very nice season last year too) and Pietrangelo is not settled into any rhythm. That said, I was VERY pleased with Petro's game against the Sharks tonight. More of that, please.

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03-13-2013, 12:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by PocketNines View Post
Which is ironic bcause in general Jackman is having a stellar season (had a very nice season last year too) and Pietrangelo is not settled into any rhythm. That said, I was VERY pleased with Petro's game against the Sharks tonight. More of that, please.
He's put 2 (or is it 3) very solid games together now. Actually, I kind of think he may have turned a corner. Its funny, the fanbase was a little slow to start being critical of him...and now there is boisterous criticism even when he's having a couple really good games. There is a fan element that only can tell if he (or Shattenkirk) have a good game if they score points.

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03-13-2013, 05:43 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
He's put 2 (or is it 3) very solid games together now. Actually, I kind of think he may have turned a corner. Its funny, the fanbase was a little slow to start being critical of him...and now there is boisterous criticism even when he's having a couple really good games. There is a fan element that only can tell if he (or Shattenkirk) have a good game if they score points.
Very much agree. A part of me wonders if having a very inexperienced goalie like Allen back there is exactly the element that forces Petro to attend to defense first. Last year, It seemed clear the Blues played more comfortably in front of Elliott (until Halak regained form), so maybe they went into this season with that same "oh he'll stop a breakaway/2-on-1, so I'll just step up here" mentality with him.

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03-13-2013, 06:12 PM
  #36
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I said a few games ago Petro was back. He still makes a mistake here and there, but you can just tell by his skating and positioning that he is playing well again. I think having Jackman with him has calmed him down. I know it hasn't worked in the past, but it is working now.

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03-13-2013, 08:34 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ExJbeck View Post
I said a few games ago Petro was back. He still makes a mistake here and there, but you can just tell by his skating and positioning that he is playing well again. I think having Jackman with him has calmed him down. I know it hasn't worked in the past, but it is working now.
It was puzzling last season why they didn't seem to make an effective pairing. I'm not sure Jackman is the reason Pietro is getting back into form, but he is having his best season in years.

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03-14-2013, 11:52 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
It was puzzling last season why they didn't seem to make an effective pairing. I'm not sure Jackman is the reason Pietro is getting back into form, but he is having his best season in years.
I think Jackman has helped Petro a bit. He's playing his best hockey of the year since Jax got moved up. It helps that Jackman is playing some of the best hockey of his career.

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03-15-2013, 03:29 PM
  #39
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So when Petro plays his game the blues start winning? But the reason we won so many games last season was that the blues defensive system and Petro was a solid guy just along for the ride, right? He didn't really have that much effect on the overall game, right? Not a game changer, right?

Maybe he's just trying to prove a point that when he's on his game, it's more of a game changer than the eye can see, haha.

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03-15-2013, 06:14 PM
  #40
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So when Petro plays his game the blues start winning? But the reason we won so many games last season was that the blues defensive system and Petro was a solid guy just along for the ride, right? He didn't really have that much effect on the overall game, right? Not a game changer, right?

Maybe he's just trying to prove a point that when he's on his game, it's more of a game changer than the eye can see, haha.
Was this meant for the Sens board?

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03-15-2013, 10:53 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Crumblin Erb Brooks View Post
Perhaps the lockout is partially to blame for Backes, tough to stay in shape when you are stuck in mediation rooms during the entire lockout.

I dont get going back to Jackman-Petro either, not a good pairing ever, no matter how much we want to make it work.
This is actually a good point. I remember Bill Guerin making the same point when he was in St. Louis. He was heavily invovled in the negotiation process, and he said it contributed to a decline in his conditioning. The end result being the worst GPG season of his career to that point. That poor season resulted in the Stars not resigning him, allowing the Blues to pick him up on the cheap for a season before trading him to San Jose at the deadline.

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03-15-2013, 11:14 PM
  #42
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now that OEL is signed for 6 years at 5.5 AAV.. Petro looking at 6-6.5?

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03-16-2013, 06:39 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Crumblin Erb Brooks View Post
Perhaps the lockout is partially to blame for Backes, tough to stay in shape when you are stuck in mediation rooms during the entire lockout.
That was 2 months ago, if your'e not in shape now after 2 months of playing? No more excuses. Is Bakes fatigued? Playing hurt?

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03-16-2013, 07:12 AM
  #44
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Groin injury is the rumour.

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03-16-2013, 07:16 AM
  #45
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That was 2 months ago, if your'e not in shape now after 2 months of playing? No more excuses. Is Bakes fatigued? Playing hurt?
He might be banged up, but his last game was clearly his best game for a long time, possibly the season. He was blazing around the ice. The day of rest could have done him some good, but he also appears to be shooting the puck more over the past several games. So, even though he's not the same old Backes offensively, he's certainly played well enough overall in recent games that he has no need for excuses.

It's incredibly rare that the Blues play well and Backes or Pietro underperforms. They are the clear leaders of the team from an in-game standpoint.

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03-16-2013, 10:54 AM
  #46
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Karlsson winning the Norris last year was a sham. I feel it has led directly to AP playing the way he has. He wants to win a Norris before his next contract, or at least get put into the top 3 finalists so he can draw comparisons to Doughty for his next contract.

He saw Karlsson play zero defense last year and win it, so now he thinks that all the voters care about are points.
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I'll have to agree that I think Karlsson winning the Norris has messed with Petro's head. If Shea Weber would have won(who I thought deserved it), I'd be willing to bet we don't have this conversation. I keep hoping he'll snap out of it, and he has still made some fantastic defensive plays, but he's made an equal number of TERRIBLE plays. Maybe we were spoiled last year, and this is how he's going to play for the rest of his career. I sure hope not.
Holy smokes...this is a topic about Pietro and people still can't stop talking about Karlsson. Pietro's play has nothing to do with Karlsson, and to say that Karlsson played "zero defence" is a joke. People think because he's the most talented offensive defenceman in the league that he doesn't play defence -- watch the games. He was leading the league in takeaways before he went down for a reason. He doesn't play defence like a typical defenceman because he's small and shifty...he uses his stick and body position to shut down top lines and more than makes up for mental lapses with his athleticism and skating.

Karlsson won the award because he was the best ALL-AROUND defenceman. He played above-average defence while being lightyears ahead of anyone else offensively.

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People do not realize that the Norris is given to the best OFFENSIVE defenseman. A player can score 40 goals and be minus -45 and still win it. Defense has nothing to do with the award, its just the best D-man that can score and get points.
Do you have an example of this ever happening? IIRC only twice in history has a defenceman had a negative +/- and won the Norris.

Anyway...Pietrangelo is a great player he'll figure it out. Defencemen this young are always still adjusting and figuring out the NHL. Most defencemen are in their mid-20s when they break into the league.

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03-16-2013, 11:02 AM
  #47
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I know Karlsson doesn't play "zero defence", he's just not a player that I want Petro modelling his game after. Petro can't skate or shoot nearly as well as Karlsson, so I don't want him to try. I want him to use his size, and use his borderline prodigious stick checking ability and turn the play up the ice like he was last year. He's much better defensively than Karlsson(yes, I've seen him play ALOT) and I want him to embrace that side of his game more than trying to put up points. He's put together 3 good games in a row, though, so he's turning it around. I don't know if he's had any points in the last few(I think he has), but I don't care about the points at all. I want him to be our best Dman. Either that, or pull a Brent Burns and play forward. He'd probably be great at that too lol.

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03-16-2013, 11:18 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Holy smokes...this is a topic about Pietro and people still can't stop talking about Karlsson. Pietro's play has nothing to do with Karlsson, and to say that Karlsson played "zero defence" is a joke. People think because he's the most talented offensive defenceman in the league that he doesn't play defence -- watch the games. He was leading the league in takeaways before he went down for a reason. He doesn't play defence like a typical defenceman because he's small and shifty...he uses his stick and body position to shut down top lines and more than makes up for mental lapses with his athleticism and skating.

Karlsson won the award because he was the best ALL-AROUND defenceman. He played above-average defence while being lightyears ahead of anyone else offensively.



Do you have an example of this ever happening? IIRC only twice in history has a defenceman had a negative +/- and won the Norris.

Anyway...Pietrangelo is a great player he'll figure it out. Defencemen this young are always still adjusting and figuring out the NHL. Most defencemen are in their mid-20s when they break into the league.
This is a thread about Pietrangelo's play, not Karlsson's. We were just mentioning the possibility that Petro was trying to adapt his game style to Karlsson's, which is directly related to his performance. You just came in here to defend Karlsson, thanks for derailing the subject.

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03-16-2013, 12:59 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Holy smokes...this is a topic about Pietro and people still can't stop talking about Karlsson. Pietro's play has nothing to do with Karlsson, and to say that Karlsson played "zero defence" is a joke. People think because he's the most talented offensive defenceman in the league that he doesn't play defence -- watch the games. He was leading the league in takeaways before he went down for a reason. He doesn't play defence like a typical defenceman because he's small and shifty...he uses his stick and body position to shut down top lines and more than makes up for mental lapses with his athleticism and skating.

Karlsson won the award because he was the best ALL-AROUND defenceman. He played above-average defence while being lightyears ahead of anyone else offensively.



Do you have an example of this ever happening? IIRC only twice in history has a defenceman had a negative +/- and won the Norris.

Anyway...Pietrangelo is a great player he'll figure it out. Defencemen this young are always still adjusting and figuring out the NHL. Most defencemen are in their mid-20s when they break into the league.
Holy Smokes Batman!! A thread about a talented young defenseman uses a comparable for salary discussion??

It boggles my mind that you actually think that Karlsson played above average defense the entire year last season. In fact, I'm literally laughing at the thought.

@#$%ing Knights of Karlsson. If you don't bow to his awesomeness, you clearly don't watch him or understand hockey. $&*! pisses me off.

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03-17-2013, 12:50 AM
  #50
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Karlsson averaged 33 seconds of SH ice time a game. For a team that ranked 20th on the PK. For reference, that's about 1/4th the time Weber averaged on the PK, 1/5 of the time Chara averaged on the PK, and 1/6 of the time AP averaged on the PK.

I can't in good conscious say that he was the best overall defenseman when he played a fraction of the ice time SH that the other 3 "finalists" were.

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