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Subban's play since coming back Part 2

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Old
03-13-2013, 10:17 PM
  #51
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The only way Bergevin's bridge deal will end up being a good idea is if he lands Perry or another stud with the cap space this summer AND he can somehow get Subban signed for approx 6 M per year (or less) on the next deal. Period.

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03-13-2013, 10:22 PM
  #52
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Remember Edmonton and other fans laughing at the thought of Subban for Yakupov? Jokes

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03-13-2013, 10:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I think a bridge deal was unnecessary and will end up being a non-optimal choice.

But it's not what bothers me the most. What bothers me is the lowballing into a holdout to your best player. Making him miss the beginning of the season. Most players struggle big time when they miss training camp + beginning of season. It was a stupid risk to take. Subban had earned more than freakin' MDZ. Subban clearly didn't have crazy demands. This should have gotten resolved in time for the first game. There's no excuse for that IMO.

And all of that for what exactly ? A low cap hit next season. I hope Bergevin makes the most out of it.
The big picture.

Bergevin is charged with making this team better than it has been for the last couple of decades. And it will involve bringing in new players to shore up weak areas of this team. Only then will we be mentioned as a continued threat to win Cups.

And part of the process was to have Subban play for a less than desired salary for two seasons before he hits the jackpot.

We give all of the windfall from Gomez and soon to be Kaberle to Subban, where does that leave room for Bergevin to manuever to make deals?

Huge contracts will be leaving the books by the time Subban will get his monster contract.

Bergevin understands that. So does PK.

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03-13-2013, 11:38 PM
  #54
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Old
03-13-2013, 11:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The big picture.

Bergevin is charged with making this team better than it has been for the last couple of decades. And it will involve bringing in new players to shore up weak areas of this team. Only then will we be mentioned as a continued threat to win Cups.

And part of the process was to have Subban play for a less than desired salary for two seasons before he hits the jackpot.

We give all of the windfall from Gomez and soon to be Kaberle to Subban, where does that leave room for Bergevin to manuever to make deals?

Huge contracts will be leaving the books by the time Subban will get his monster contract.

Bergevin understands that. So does PK.
On the contrary, it was extremely shortsighted.

Looking at the big picture meant looking at how much PK will cost the team two years from now as opposed to today (past summer).

PK is currently at a 2.85M. By 2014, if he keeps up his play, expect his cap hit to double at the very minimum. If the rumors are true, PK was looking at about a 4.5M cap hit over a long period.
Over that span, notable names that are likely to get decent to great raises as well are Eller, DD, Diaz, Emelin, and MaxPac's hit will rise up by 3M as well.
DD will probably quadruple his salary. Eller and Diaz are likely to double it by then. MaxPac is pretty much tripling it. Emelin might get a 50% raise or even more.
Add in PK that will at the very least double his as well.

Those are massive deals that will need to be negotiated.

Next year, we will have 11M of free space. Some of that (3-4M) will go to DD, and then we'll have to find a replacement on our wings for Ryder (unless we resign him). In any event, you're looking at probably adding another 3-4M winger. Some of that will also be for MaxPac (3M increase in cap hit). Then you have to also re-sign (or get new guys) guys like White, Armstrong, Bouillon, and Budaj.
Needless to say, that 11M will quickly go out the window. Luckily, we have Kaberle that we'll surely buy out. So that gives us a small breathing room.
However, in the following year, the only big numbers coming off the books will be Markov and Gionta. Say PK gets Markov's current number (which would be an amazing number if he keeps up his play), so already that takes close to 6M off of free space.
Then we only have Gionta's 5M coming off, but see Eller, Diaz and Emelin needing new deals.
And of course, this is assuming Markov and Gionta are completely let go, which isn't something I necessarily want.

All in all, signing PK to a cheaper/longer deal last summer would have helped us a lot more than this bridge deal.

It's not just PK's cap hit that will go up in the following years, we have a lot of kids that will see their cash go up. So any money that could be saved 2years was a must imo, and when you're talking about a guy like PK, it was a no-brainer.

Just so we're clear on the big picture, Galchenyuk is making about 500K more than PK as a rookie playing 10min a game less.
This dispute was absolutely useless, unwarranted and looked like an ego battle right from the start more than anything. Heck, it was even publicized as so. With all the ''Bergevin has a reputation to build'' and ''If Bergevin backs down, he'll look weak as a negotiator'' headlines in the press. This looked a lot more like a rookie GM wanting to show who's boss rather than a simple and obvious decision to lock up not only your best youngster but your best player overall (one of the best young players in the whole league!), who had already proven to be effective in all game situations versus tougher opponents, to a long term deal asap.
This was a very stupid negotiation.


Last edited by Kriss E: 03-13-2013 at 11:53 PM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 11:48 PM
  #56
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Wow, PK only has 12 PIM?!?!

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03-13-2013, 11:50 PM
  #57
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I don't buy this anti-chambre theory that Subban's success on the powerplay is largely because of Markov.

Yes, Markov helps him, but the ''general'' of that PP is now Subban.

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03-13-2013, 11:53 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
On the contrary, it was extremely shortsighted.

Looking at the big picture meant looking at how much PK will cost the team two years from now as opposed to today (past summer).

PK is currently at a 2.85M. By 2014, if he keeps up his play, expect his cap hit to double at the very minimum. If the rumors are true, PK was looking at about a 4.5M cap hit over a long period.
Over that span, notable names that are likely to get decent to great raises as well are Eller, DD, Diaz, Emelin, and MaxPac's hit will rise up by 3M as well.
DD will probably quadruple his salary. Eller and Diaz are likely to double it by then. MaxPac is pretty much tripling it. Emelin might get a 50% raise or even more.
Add in PK that will at the very least double his as well.

Those are massive deals that will need to be negotiated.

Next year, we will have 11M of free space. Some of that (3-4M) will go to DD, and then we'll have to find a replacement on our wings for Ryder (unless we resign him). In any event, you're looking at probably adding another 3-4M winger. Some of that will also be for MaxPac (3M increase in cap hit). Then you have to also re-sign (or get new guys) guys like White, Armstrong, Bouillon, and Budaj.
Needless to say, that 11M will quickly go out the window. Luckily, we have Kaberle that we'll surely buy out. So that gives us a small breathing room.
However, in the following year, the only big numbers coming off the books will be Markov and Gionta. Say PK gets Markov's current number (which would be an amazing number if he keeps up his play), so already that takes close to 6M off of free space.
Then we only have Gionta's 5M coming off, but see Eller, Diaz and Emelin needing new deals.
And of course, this is assuming Markov and Gionta are completely let go, which isn't something I necessarily want.

All in all, signing PK to a cheaper/longer deal last summer would have helped us a lot more than this bridge deal.

It's not just PK's cap hit that will go up in the following years, we have a lot of kids that will see their cash go up. So any money that could be saved 2years was a must imo, and when you're talking about a guy like PK, it was a no-brainer.

Just so we're clear on the big picture, Galchenyuk is making about 500K more than PK as a rookie playing 10min a game less.
You are a very good poster Kriss and I respect your opinion on most subjects.

I do, however, trust Bergevin's judgement a little bit more since he is playing with real money and real responsibility.

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03-13-2013, 11:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I don't buy this anti-chambre theory that Subban's success on the powerplay is largely because of Markov.

Yes, Markov helps him, but the ''general'' of that PP is now Subban.
The guys from antichambre blasted PK during his holdout. Heck, they even stated that it may be better for the team not to bring him back, because the team was winning and well, maybe we just don't need him all that much.
I swear, I don't understand how this town can be so proud about knowing hockey and yet say so many dumb things.

Markov is a great set up guy on the PP. It really helps to have him there. It also helps him a lot to have PK there too. Which of the two is more important? I'd say they're pretty equal. But overall, PK is undoubtedly our #1.

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03-13-2013, 11:59 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
On the contrary, it was extremely shortsighted.

Looking at the big picture meant looking at how much PK will cost the team two years from now as opposed to today (past summer).

PK is currently at a 2.85M. By 2014, if he keeps up his play, expect his cap hit to double at the very minimum. If the rumors are true, PK was looking at about a 4.5M cap hit over a long period.
Over that span, notable names that are likely to get decent to great raises as well are Eller, DD, Diaz, Emelin, and MaxPac's hit will rise up by 3M as well.
DD will probably quadruple his salary. Eller and Diaz are likely to double it by then. MaxPac is pretty much tripling it. Emelin might get a 50% raise or even more.
Add in PK that will at the very least double his as well.

Those are massive deals that will need to be negotiated.

Next year, we will have 11M of free space. Some of that (3-4M) will go to DD, and then we'll have to find a replacement on our wings for Ryder (unless we resign him). In any event, you're looking at probably adding another 3-4M winger. Some of that will also be for MaxPac (3M increase in cap hit). Then you have to also re-sign (or get new guys) guys like White, Armstrong, Bouillon, and Budaj.
Needless to say, that 11M will quickly go out the window. Luckily, we have Kaberle that we'll surely buy out. So that gives us a small breathing room.
However, in the following year, the only big numbers coming off the books will be Markov and Gionta. Say PK gets Markov's current number (which would be an amazing number if he keeps up his play), so already that takes close to 6M off of free space.
Then we only have Gionta's 5M coming off, but see Eller, Diaz and Emelin needing new deals.
And of course, this is assuming Markov and Gionta are completely let go, which isn't something I necessarily want.

All in all, signing PK to a cheaper/longer deal last summer would have helped us a lot more than this bridge deal.

It's not just PK's cap hit that will go up in the following years, we have a lot of kids that will see their cash go up. So any money that could be saved 2years was a must imo, and when you're talking about a guy like PK, it was a no-brainer.

Just so we're clear on the big picture, Galchenyuk is making about 500K more than PK as a rookie playing 10min a game less.
This dispute was absolutely useless, unwarranted and looked like an ego battle right from the start more than anything. Heck, it was even publicized as so. With all the ''Bergevin has a reputation to build'' and ''If Bergevin backs down, he'll look weak as a negotiator'' headlines in the press. This looked a lot more like a rookie GM wanting to show who's boss rather than a simple and obvious decision to lock up not only your best youngster but your best player overall (one of the best young players in the whole league!), who had already proven to be effective in all game situations versus tougher opponents, to a long term deal asap.
This was a very stupid negotiation.
and in the next few years, Markov and Gionta contracts will be off the books, not much longer after it will be the Moen and Prust, and by then chances are a few of our young D (Beaulieu, Tinordi for example) could be ready to replace our 3 or 4 Mil D (like Diaz, Emelin if they keep playing the way they do now)...

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03-14-2013, 12:00 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I don't buy this anti-chambre theory that Subban's success on the powerplay is largely because of Markov.

Yes, Markov helps him, but the ''general'' of that PP is now Subban.
Markov AND PK is crazy, either players alone seem to be "generals". Markov with the sword and PK with the cannon.

The only theory that's probable, is that PK was already the best D on this team when Markov was gone, and he was younger, and that he is benefiting from so called "development" and being that ****ing good and getting better.
No doubt Markov makes PK better but PK's making Markov look 10 years younger.

PK got low-balled and that could fire back; fully agree with ech2 and kriss on this. And anyways, we are loosing on 2-4 years of a relative cheap contract, at 4.5 mil, or even 5 mill that he would of gotten on long term. At this pace, he's going to cost 6++ mill as soon as this "bridge contract" is done. And we have the cap space this year, so technically we lost a "free" year, unless molson couldn't afford the few extra millies this year. makes no sense.


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03-14-2013, 12:03 AM
  #62
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You are a very good poster Kriss and I respect your opinion on most subjects.

I do, however, trust Bergevin's judgement a little bit more since he is playing with real money and real responsibility.
Well, I trust Bergevin's judgment as well. I just disagree with that decision. Not that my opinion really matters, but hey, that's why we're all here for, to discuss hockey.

To me, I already considered PK to be a top 30 Dman in the NHL. That alone is worthy of a long term deal asap so you can get him for cheaper now as opposed to pricier later.
But it seems Bergevin wanted to set a precedent. I just disagree.

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03-14-2013, 12:07 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I don't buy this anti-chambre theory that Subban's success on the powerplay is largely because of Markov.

Yes, Markov helps him, but the ''general'' of that PP is now Subban.
I wouldnt say P.K. is already the General, but watching him progress is fun. (cause yeah, he's progressing, and at a fast pace)

It's only a matter of time anyway even if only for the fact Markov cannot play 25 minutes a night over a full schedule whereas P.K. can he's young and uninjured yet so... it's only logical to think he'll be the "general" really soon if not already

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03-14-2013, 12:10 AM
  #64
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The guys from antichambre blasted PK during his holdout. Heck, they even stated that it may be better for the team not to bring him back, because the team was winning and well, maybe we just don't need him all that much.
I swear, I don't understand how this town can be so proud about knowing hockey and yet say so many dumb things.

Markov is a great set up guy on the PP. It really helps to have him there. It also helps him a lot to have PK there too. Which of the two is more important? I'd say they're pretty equal. But overall, PK is undoubtedly our #1.
Seriously, eh?

I forget which game but after one of PK's first 5 games Bergy and the other clowns were all unanimous on the fact that Subban is the 6th best d-man on this team.

Not 2, 3, 4 or 5... BUT SIXTH.

They collectively shared this belief that Subban was basically a wild chicken last year with inflated stats because of ''bad habits'' and that Therrien is going to make him into a boring yet error-free 6th d-man.

Today's show, they've mellowed their tone and insinuated that Subban is benefiting mostly because of Markov.

Of course, they are not completely wrong. Yes, Subban is a better, takes a bit less chances, is a bit more disciplined. But who's to say this is all Therrien and not natural development.

I really hate this province sometimes because if Subban was a ''local'' they'd be all waiting together in line to **** his ****

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03-14-2013, 12:11 AM
  #65
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and in the next few years, Markov and Gionta contracts will be off the books, not much longer after it will be the Moen and Prust, and by then chances are a few of our young D (Beaulieu, Tinordi for example) could be ready to replace our 3 or 4 Mil D (like Diaz, Emelin if they keep playing the way they do now)...
When Markov and Gionta come off the books, we will likely already be up against the cap. They will create 10.5M of space, plus probably an increase of cap by the league but that's unpredictable yet.
When their contracts expire, PK, Eller, Emelin and Diaz will all need to be renewed. Not to mention, Markov and Gionta will also be re-signed (granted for cheaper, but it's still millions being added to the cap). Perhaps Gionta will be let go, but Markov should be re-signed (so long as he stays healthy).

Moen and Prust will still be counting against our cap unless they're traded. The fact that they come off the 2 summers after is completely irrelevant.

Point is, we will have a tough time making all of our players fit under the cap. Some might be traded by then, who knows. But looking at our current roster, locking up PK to a cheaper deal and saving about 2M a year from it would have helped our situation. Not sure why you stubbornly keep disputing this.

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03-14-2013, 12:12 AM
  #66
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I wouldnt say P.K. is already the General, but watching him progress is fun. (cause yeah, he's progressing, and at a fast pace)

It's only a matter of time anyway even if only for the fact Markov cannot play 25 minutes a night over a full schedule whereas P.K. can he's young and uninjured yet so... it's only logical to think he'll be the "general" really soon if not already
Is this really you or did someone hijack your account?

*shakeshand

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03-14-2013, 12:19 AM
  #67
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Seriously, eh?

I forget which game but after one of PK's first 5 games Bergy and the other clowns were all unanimous on the fact that Subban is the 6th best d-man on this team.

Not 2, 3, 4 or 5... BUT SIXTH.

They collectively shared this belief that Subban was basically a wild chicken last year with inflated stats because of ''bad habits'' and that Therrien is going to make him into a boring yet error-free 6th d-man.

Today's show, they've mellowed their tone and insinuated that Subban is benefiting mostly because of Markov.

Of course, they are not completely wrong. Yes, Subban is a better, takes a bit less chances, is a bit more disciplined. But who's to say this is all Therrien and not natural development.

I really hate this province sometimes because if Subban was a ''local'' they'd be all waiting together in line to **** his ****
I agree, I'm sure Therrien has some say over PK's progression. But people are all over Therrien's nuts because there's a show now called the ''24 CH'' and they saw Therrien take Subban in a video room and point out a mistake. Oh my god, this guy is such a freaking genius. I'm sure Martin would go in his office during intermissions and count the number of buggers he could pick out of his nose while his assistants played angry birds on their iphones.

Don't get me wrong, I think Therrien is doing a great job. I think having a defensive coach was also a great addition, and a no brainer. But I also think PK would be this good if a bunch of other coaches were there. I mean, if PK could still look darn good under such a clueless coaching staff last year with RC, then he'd look amazing under any decent one.
Crosby said Therrien was a great coach for him. Does anybody here think those young superstars would suck if it wasn't Therrien there?

Therrien's had a great year, but PK is PK.

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03-14-2013, 12:26 AM
  #68
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Subban is playing like a $6.5 million player. He might get $7 million. He's probably a candidate for Norris this year.

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03-14-2013, 12:32 AM
  #69
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I think Bergervins numbers and reasoning for Subbans bridge contract is likely more complex than we think. He probably did see his talent. But he probably saw some warning signs. And who knows what message it sent to Subban. Maybe it humbled him. ¸

Maybe this was the kind of contract that had to be made so that he keeps working on his game day to day at the level of professionalism he's displaying right now. The next two years are crucial for him, they're the ones that really establish him as the number 1 guy for Montreal. You want to be sure that while he's still at his physical peak he fully developps his mad skillset. A somewhat lowball contract with a track record from the organisation to reward their players only reinforces and motivates that. He'll only get good habits from this.

Who knows, maybe that's what Bergervin was thinking, maybe he did recognize his potential, his positive and hard working attitude and thought to optomize who's most likely going to be your franchise defensemen for the next 10 years. I don't see any good reason to throw the bank at 2nd contract players, especially ones who aren't near being fully developed.

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03-14-2013, 12:32 AM
  #70
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Seriously, eh?

I forget which game but after one of PK's first 5 games Bergy and the other clowns were all unanimous on the fact that Subban is the 6th best d-man on this team.

Not 2, 3, 4 or 5... BUT SIXTH.

They collectively shared this belief that Subban was basically a wild chicken last year with inflated stats because of ''bad habits'' and that Therrien is going to make him into a boring yet error-free 6th d-man.

Today's show, they've mellowed their tone and insinuated that Subban is benefiting mostly because of Markov.

Of course, they are not completely wrong. Yes, Subban is a better, takes a bit less chances, is a bit more disciplined. But who's to say this is all Therrien and not natural development.

I really hate this province sometimes because if Subban was a ''local'' they'd be all waiting together in line to **** his ****
It's actually quite simple and quite ugly. All these guys have either played in the NHL for years, or have been reporters or pundits. They are all able to recognize talent. Hell, there are hundreds of hydrocephalics on these boards who know Crosby is generational but must call him Cindy.

Talent, creativity, hard work, passion; all these qualities are easy to recognize if you watch and pay attention. For a group of men paid to be hockey experts, to call PK a sixth D can only mean one thing.

Like I said, it's ugly.

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03-14-2013, 12:48 AM
  #71
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Watching the Flyers bumble all over each other, I can't help but think what they would give us to acquire Subban. Just for fun, I'd call them and see how desperate they are.

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03-14-2013, 01:08 AM
  #72
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PK has strength, skill, flair and creativity but he is/was like a wild bronco... all over the place. This management and coaching staff is reigning him in a little and teaching him how to best use his talent to help the team win and not let his wildness hurt the team.
I am sure that when MB talked to PK he told him of their plan to transform him from a raw bucking bronco to a thorough bred horse and if PK follows the plan he will be a top 5 dman in the league. At which point he will be rewarded with the big $$ contract.

As far as the bridge contract goes, it shows that Bergevin understands what it takes to run a Hockey team under a cap system. The extra cap space for the next two years allows him to make moves if needed in the short term. This year the Habs may have a chance to get to the conference final, the extra cap space from the Subban signing and the Cole trade will allow him to make a move for a player at the trade deadline and maybe put the Habs over the top. You never know, best to be prepared.

Down the road, two years from now, when Subban gets the big contract, we will have more ELC players ready to play which will help the cap situation. I'm sure MB has a plan in place already.

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03-14-2013, 01:20 AM
  #73
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Watching the Flyers bumble all over each other, I can't help but think what they would give us to acquire Subban. Just for fun, I'd call them and see how desperate they are.
I say Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier and this year's 1st round pick. But we lose cuz Subban is more important to us than that package from Philly.

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03-14-2013, 01:57 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ape Clutch View Post
I now remember why I stopped posting and reading on these boards. I felt like this league's treatment of Subban was ridiculous. It's really just a revealing of the ignorance that is pervasive in this society. Unable to understand what motivates Subban. Unable to get past the color of his skin, to the underlying and implicit assumptions at work in the moral standards that are held by those who are a part of the NHL and the culture of hockey in North America.

The saddest part is that many people are ignorant of their ignorance, and due to their lack of humility, oppress those who think and behave differently.

Then again i've failed by being passive evasive and not man enough to dare oppose the current. It's hard to watch hockey, post chara-patches & subban lynch mob organization really turned me off.

I only care about le Bleu, Blanc et Rouge.
Good post.

I think Subban is misunderstood or I just don't understand all the hatred directed at him...and while I love this year's Subban...I miss last year's Subban and the year before that as well. Improvement? He's putting it all together to be a lethal weapon for many years...some people are still talking like he's a bum and needs to work on so many things...no respect. He's ****ing better than 90% of the dmen out there and some still continue talking about what he needs to improve!! What a joke!! So many NHL dmen could only wish they had 50% of Subban's talent/skill/speed,playoff heart,etc. They'll never get close to Subban's caliber 'cause Subban is one of a kinf. There will some seasons (like this one!) where Subban will be the best in the NHL or top 3 (get used to it), and some of you will still be trying to tell Subban what he needs to improve!!! What a joke!! He was already amazing at 21 when he was shutting down Crosby.


I would really like to read a book written by him one day...a book that really reveals what he is really thinking and letting us know what is really going on...the players/opponents, ex-coaches/coaches, teammates, what Subban really thinks of Cherry. His answers are always smart but I'd love to find out what he is really thinking. I still think he was treated unfairly and my blood starts to boil when I think of how Cherry was spreading hatred for Subban in the NHL (it's almost as if Cherry was calling for everyone to injure Subban).

Today...I think our Habs are trying to erase that whole ugly incident...team concept, team first, team only...win, win, win as a team. But still makes me furious to think of that whole post-Chara/patches and Subban lynch mob. Things are looking good for our Habs so I'm happy about that, but I still worry...the Bruins always try to violently injure our players when we win (and I always worry about Markov's health/luck...screws up our entire top 4 when he gets injured unless he gets injured before the deadline so we can acquire another top 4 dman...I say we do that now for insurance).
Bruins...we have to protect ourselves and get ready for it, be prepared...and not just wait and let it happen (when they stop playing hockey and just try to injure our players).


Chara:
Still hurts to think what he got away with (almost killing Pacioretty and winning/cheating to win a CUP). I will not rest until I see this ugly caveman-criminal retire from the game (it's not classy but I actually wouldn't mind if somebody would ''McSorley'' him for what he did to Pacioretty (for almost killing him and/or ruining his hockey career). I can't believe there's a woman out there that sleeps with this ****ing ugly beast. The league let this ugly beast/ogre get away with an obvious revenge violent shove...he should not have been playing in the playoffs (he obviously targeted Pacioretty and not someone else), especially that Pacioretty was not able to because of Chara's obvious revenge. The League just ignored that the shove was an obvious continuation of the shove that Pacioretty gave...but Chara took it to another level...he almost killed him or paralyzed him for life...the League looked the other way and the Bruins won the Cup. IF we had Pacioretty for that series against them...we would have won in 6 games, maybe less. No justice. We'll try and get some justice now by winning in the playoffs.


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 03-14-2013 at 02:08 AM.
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03-14-2013, 02:18 AM
  #75
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Is this really you or did someone hijack your account?

*shakeshand
I just happen to think Subban wasnt as good (but good anyway) as he is now... how stupid of me to think he improved on his previous seasons heh ?

funny thing is, I keep reading, pages after pages, posters talking about different things PK improved on (decision making, using his wrister more, more patient, etc). Guess I was wrong all along

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