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Thank Holmgren for the Flyers Poor Performance

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:47 AM
  #76
Mo Wanchuk
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Their D is weak, Bryz is lost in the woods and even the "Best Player in the World" has been taking shifts off. But alot of this falls on BOTH the GM and the coach. Either the system they try to play does not match the personnel (GMs fault for not acquiring the proper players to play the system) or vice versa. Where they do not have the players to play said system. Then that is on the coach to alter the system to fit the players on the team. The Flyers have a great group of young forwards, meh Defense and a terrible goalie. Address the D and Goalie, get a new coach and profit.



Not to knock Giroux at all either, he is a great player but as an outsider is baffles me how he was chosen Captain. I would have thougth Kimmo should've been given the C until he retired. JMHO

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03-14-2013, 11:48 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Briere and his disappearing act isn't providing much leadership. Giroux shouldn't be your captain. Timonen should be.
Because Briere isn't producing like we want on the ice doesn't mean he is any less of a leader in the locker room and off the ice.

Giroux should be our captain, he was ready and proved it last year in the playoffs. Kimmo has one more year left, it doesn't hurt to give Giroux the C now to help him develop into the captain we want him to be. Which I already think he is.

This is pointless to argue, why are Pens fans telling us we have no leadership. Flyer fans follow this team in and out and know who leads this team. We see from post game interviews and other info who is holding this team accountable for their disappointing season.

The biggest problem with this team is the system(aggressive forecheck, fast paced hockey) and goaltending. We have the leadership we need, just the players are not playing up to their standards.

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03-14-2013, 11:52 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by CellarDweller0 View Post
Sigh...I like Gardiner which is why I reluctantly agree with you. Couts would be a nice add and Philly would like Gards.

The question is, would Philly trade with us again?
I can't believe we got JVR for Schenn I thought it would take Gardiner. Honestly Philly fans have no idea how good Jake Gardiner actually is, he would immediately become one of there best puck moving defensmen, hell he is the best leafs defensmen but he's blocked by unmovable contracts (Komisarek i'm looking at you) only reason why Gardiner is in the minors is because he's the only player with a two-way contract. I wouldn't trade Gardiner for Couturier. Gardiner is like the exact same player as Kris Letang... it's a shame he's not in the NHL.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:53 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Because Briere isn't producing like we want on the ice doesn't mean he is any less of a leader in the locker room and off the ice.

Giroux should be our captain, he was ready and proved it last year in the playoffs. Kimmo has one more year left, it doesn't hurt to give Giroux the C now to help him develop into the captain we want him to be. Which I already think he is.

This is pointless to argue, why are Pens fans telling us we have no leadership. Flyer fans follow this team in and out and know who leads this team. We see from post game interviews and other info who is holding this team accountable for their disappointing season.

The biggest problem with this team is the system(aggressive forecheck, fast paced hockey) and goaltending. We have the leadership we need, just the players are not playing up to their standards.
Don't forget to add defense as a problem, because your blueline sucks.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:54 AM
  #80
Mo Wanchuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Because Briere isn't producing like we want on the ice doesn't mean he is any less of a leader in the locker room and off the ice.

Giroux should be our captain, he was ready and proved it last year in the playoffs. Kimmo has one more year left, it doesn't hurt to give Giroux the C now to help him develop into the captain we want him to be. Which I already think he is.This is pointless to argue, why are Pens fans telling us we have no leadership. Flyer fans follow this team in and out and know who leads this team. We see from post game interviews and other info who is holding this team accountable for their disappointing season.

The biggest problem with this team is the system(aggressive forecheck, fast paced hockey) and goaltending. We have the leadership we need, just the players are not playing up to their standards.



Not trying to argue, since you know your team better than I. But I was asking some Flyer fans on here last week about this very issue, and some of them shared the same setiments ie that Kimmo should have been give the C over Giroux. So it's not a totally outlandish statement to believe that Kimmo should have been given the C until he retired. But to each their own I guess.

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03-14-2013, 11:56 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Don't forget to add defense as a problem, because your blueline sucks.
From the injuries we suffered yes it does. When this group is completely healthy it should be enough to get us into the playoffs.

Kimmo-Schenn(has been great for us)
Coburn-Grossmann
Mez-Gus

That is not a horrible defense.

But like I said the issue with this team is not leadership.

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:01 PM
  #82
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The Flyers are a wreck. Anyone who watches hockey can see it. They have ZERO transition game, their team D is terrible and Timonen is the second highest scoring Dman in za league because...well, he's the only one capable of moving the puck up ice from the back end.

Who can we blame?

Paul Holmgrem. He has mismanaged this hockey club. Going hard for Parise and Suter (we all knew they were signing in Minny) and that offer sheet Nashville had to match, he completely overlooked what he had. Matt Carle, albeit prone to turnovers, could move the puck up ice and they simply let him walk. In the NHL you absolutely need a good transition game and the Flyers deserve to be in the bottom third of the league because the simply lack it.

In Richards and Carter he traded offense for offense. He could've easily requested the services of J Johnson from LA in the Richards deal instead of the pick and Simmonds. Schenn, Simmonds and Voracek are all great hockey players and have provided plentiful offense but sheesh, that D sure looks bad!

Yet again a Flyers GM has overlooked the defense and he ought to fix it sooner then later for our sake and his own.

So if you were GM of Flyers, what would you do?
I said it at the draft, and I'll say it again. Passing on Dougie Hamilton for Sean Couturier was a mistake. That's taking into account Couturier's great first season. Hamilton fit a much bigger need, and wasn't exactly levels below Couturier so BPA was not an accurate argument for taking Couturier in my mind. I'm prepared to receive flack for this but it was a mistake. Especially after grabbing another high skilled two-way center in Brayden Schenn with the Richards trade? It made little sense to grab Couturier with Schenn coming in.

Holmgren had the chance to fix his teams biggest weakness by grabbing a very impressive puck moving dman with top pairing potential. And he missed that opportunity.

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:09 PM
  #83
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holmgren is not guilty of injuries that all Flyers D have...

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:28 PM
  #84
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Although all Flyer fans are frustrated with the teams performance, I hope that Homer doesn't give up draft choices or prospects for a quick fix. They only have a few good prospects, (imo), Laughten, Cousins, etc. This year's draft is going to be a good one. There is good d-man this summer that plays for the same junior team as Cousins- Darnell Nurse. He would be a good pick for the Flyers. I would like to see Briere and Bryz gone, but I know that its almost impossible. I am tired of seeing Homer give up picks and prospects year after year. Our future talent pool is dying!

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03-14-2013, 12:31 PM
  #85
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Haha, Flyers fans are some of the most involuntary funnier around...


Why would the Flyers want to trade Couturier or Schenn for Yandle? The guy has to be given sheltered defensive minutes. If they really wanted to get offensive defensemen who are defensive liabilities they'd be better served going after a guy like Mark Streit this summer.

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:35 PM
  #86
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There are distinct differences. While JVR was basically traded as a spare part to Toronto for Schenn, you lost valuable leadership provided by Jagr. He was the guy that helped your youth and Claude. Carle was a big swing and miss. He was your only puck mover on the back end.

When you lose Carle, Jagr, JVR and basically have Luke Schenn to show for that, its a major loss. The team was put together wrong. You had major issues on the blueline and didn't address them. Holmgren tried, but didn't have backup plans after missing on Suter and Weber.
Well then by your analysis, the only thing the Flyers really have to do this offseason is find a PMD and add a veteran forward. They could get the PMD via the draft. So they'll need to sign a veteran forward this offseason. Viola!

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03-14-2013, 12:37 PM
  #87
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Well then by your analysis, the only thing the Flyers really have to do this offseason is find a PMD and add a veteran forward. They could get the PMD via the draft. So they'll need to sign a veteran forward this offseason. Viola!
You need to add another Dman to that PMD. Your blueline is still questionable. I don't think much about what you have on the blue line to be honest. Add a Yandle and a young stay at home physical guy (better than Luke Schenn) and you might have something. Timonen, Gus, Meszaros don't do much for me moving forward if I were a Flyers fan.

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03-14-2013, 12:40 PM
  #88
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What? So sign the contract with Pronger and then worry about the complications, hoping the NHL just acquiesces? If that was the FOs strategy, then the owner should have fired them for being reckless.

If, as you claim, they would have signed him to that contract and cap hit anyway, then there was no reason to structure the salary to almost nothing in the final years. As it went down, it just seemed like the Flyers, once again, threw money at a player to address a weakness in their team, and then had it blow up in their faces because they thought get around the cap once again.
They had those tack on years to lower the AAV. They did the same thing with Briere. They front load it, so that potentially at the end of it the actual payroll is low and a team that needs to get to the cap floor but doesn't want high payroll would find the contract attractive when the player is on his last legs. It's actually a smart contract structure. You have to be blind not to acknowledge that.

Look at a team like the Islanders. They traded for Tim Thomas KNOWING he wasn't going to play just so they could get his 5M cap hit with 0 salary.

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03-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #89
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Give him credit for finally admitting the main problem over the years, goaltending, instead of thinking that he could get by on the cheap. He just made the wrong choice in goalies to go after. As much as I hate the Flyers, I can see when they at least are aiming in the right direction even if they misfired.

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03-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #90
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This. I said it at the draft, and I will agree with anyone who says it here. When I saw Hamilton available when Philly picked, I was positive they would grab him as he represented their biggest area of weakness. Couturier has tons of potential, and is already fairly good, but Hamilton would be such a stabilizing force for Philly it is insane. Boston got a chunk of gold when they picked him up. I was soooooo hoping the Habs would have traded almost anything to get into the spot to get Hamilton...sigh...

For those thinking the Flyers won the Richards/Carter for ___ trades, I also disagree, to a degree. It depends upon what you are looking at. Before the two trades, Philly was a Cup contender, only losing because their GM didn't have the intelligence to address their only actual weakness at that time: goaltending. People seem to forget how dominating the Flyers were with Richards and Carter. Since the trades, Philly has become easier to play against. I admit, it is not all because of those 2 deals, there are definite other factors involved, but Richards was the kind of dream captain teams should never get rid of. His point production was great in Philly, but his attitude, his ability to force his team to succeed made him far more valuable than many people realized. Now, yes, Philly got good young players and picks that have helped keep the team strong (they would have to have more than just one bad 48 game season for me to discount that team with the talent on it), but they are not Cup contenders, at the moment. They have the pieces to build towards it, again, and are young enough that they will be competitive for many years, but they were actual Cup contenders with Richards and Carter, both of whom are still young enough to have enabled the team to be a contender for years.

Right now, those deals are losses in the short term. A Cup contender was dismantled and hasn't made it back. In the future? Well, if Philly never makes it as far as even an ECF, then they will have lost significantly.

LA has clearly won the trades that brought them Carter and Richards. They have a Cup and are a contender. Richards and Carter are young enough that they will continue to be key components of a Cup contending team for at least another 5 or more years (health pending, of course).

Holmgren didn't need to blow the team up. He should have traded something to get a good goalie when he had the chance. He screwed up, and his approach to "fixing" that screw up has not panned out...yet. Time will tell, but Philly has lost in the short term.
You're comparing guys who were 25-27 to guys who are 20-22.

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03-14-2013, 12:49 PM
  #91
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They should have fired Lavy and hired Randy Carlyle. Problem solved.
This x1000.

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03-14-2013, 12:51 PM
  #92
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You're comparing guys who were 25-27 to guys who are 20-22.
Yes, we are comparing them. The guys you had were what you had and were doing great things for your team. The guys you got are looking like they WILL do great things, but aren't there yet. That was sort of the whole point.

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03-14-2013, 12:56 PM
  #93
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I can't believe we got JVR for Schenn I thought it would take Gardiner. Honestly Philly fans have no idea how good Jake Gardiner actually is, he would immediately become one of there best puck moving defensmen, hell he is the best leafs defensmen but he's blocked by unmovable contracts (Komisarek i'm looking at you) only reason why Gardiner is in the minors is because he's the only player with a two-way contract. I wouldn't trade Gardiner for Couturier. Gardiner is like the exact same player as Kris Letang... it's a shame he's not in the NHL.
While I think Jvr is the better player in the deal, luke Schenn has been pretty darn good this season, don't regret getting Schenn, just wish we had gotten more for JvR

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03-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  #94
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This deal makes complete sense. You want a top 4 guy who can control your PP, and bring the puck up the ice with absolute ease, then Gardiner is your guy.

I don't want to trade him unless its for a young player with as much potential as him and Couturier, IMO, will never perform offensively but I think he'll be a great C for Kessel as he's got the potential to shut down opposing players.

So you will take Couts but not Berglund? Really?

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03-14-2013, 12:58 PM
  #95
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Never go full Holmgren!

In all seriousness, at least he has the balls to try to make his team better.

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03-14-2013, 01:11 PM
  #96
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I don't think the flyers are that bad. One goood streak and they'll be in the plaoffs. I don't think any team would want to play them. They remind me of a team who were at a similar stage last year. That team made a coaching change (Kings-Sutter)- (Flyers-Ruff) and then they went on a tear. Unfortunately though you are stuck with Bryz because nobody is taking that contract. I'd make the change because what else have you got to lose?
Have to disagree. LA would lose because they couldn't score, but it was difficult to determine -why- they couldn't score.

The Flyers are sort of easy to diagnose. There's no transition game because there's one PMD. Most teams want 3.

It also doesn't help that they went from crazy deep on offense to about average depth in the span of one offseason. Even if Jagr cooled down as the season went on last year, he's the type of player that the opposing team knows it must absolutely not abandon coverage on to cheat toward another guy. Jagr always needing to be respected opened up holes for other guys to make plays.

Edit: oh, and just in general, people need to stop with the 'crisis of leadership' schtick. They don't have the personnel on D to play the way they're trying to play. Giroux can't be expected to lead a team to wins through a structural problem that significant, nor can anybody.

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03-14-2013, 01:14 PM
  #97
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They should sign Kovar. Low risk, high reward.

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03-14-2013, 01:17 PM
  #98
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I actually think he's assembled a really good roster.

1. Philly has a good young core in the top-6. Giroux, Voracek, Couts, Schenn, Simmonds, etc.. Briere is old, sure, but you need guys with experince and it was a good signing as a whole.

2. They have a solid group of experienced NHLers on the blueline. Mes, Coburn, Schenn, Grossman are all experienced top-4 guys in the prime of their careers. Kimmo (although old) has been alright. There is enough there to make a solid defense, and that is without including Pronger.

3. Bryz is a good goalie. Maybe not worth his salary, but he is, without a doubt, a good starter in the NHL.

I remember Pat Quinn saying something about wanting to "buy the groceries" if he was going to be forced to cook the meal. I actually think there is enough ingredients to make a pretty good meal in Philly, I think the team's inability to "gel" is a coaching issue.

Edit: I do think failing to find a way to retain Carle was a mistake.

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03-14-2013, 01:18 PM
  #99
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The biggest problem is the stubbornness of those in control of the players; Holmgren and Laviolette. Holmgren's supplied the team with huge, relatively slow, defensive defensemen. Laviolette insists on playing a high octane offensive game that requires aggressive defensive play from offensive defensemen and as we saw last night, a lot of pinching, which backfires horribly with a goalie like Bryz.


They need a coach who can utilize the Flyers skill at forwards, but also play a conservative defensive system that caters to guys like Timonen, Schenn, Grossmann, Meszaros, and Coburn...the latter two are by far the most athletic at this point of their careers, but don't make good decisions in the offensive zone.

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03-14-2013, 01:20 PM
  #100
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They should have fired Lavy and hired Randy Carlyle. Problem solved.
They would be a playoff team with him as coach.

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